Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Marriage defined as a "viable situation"???  I'm not offended by
    the question, but indeed by the definition!  In my case, it was
    a matter of determining my love for somebody that I wanted to share
    the rest of my life with, and being assured that the feeling is
    mutual.  Also realizing that in order to have that "situation",
    certain sacrifices are necessary; ie, not working until midnight
    at the office if I'm so inclined, changing one's lifestyle to a
    certain extent to be thoughtful of the spouse, etc.
    
    Scared?  You bet!  But it was the best decision I ever made.
    
    Jon

Seemed like a good idea at the time ... after more than 10 years, it still does.

Seriously, Linda and I were  friends before  we  were  lovers.   When  my  first
marriage fell apart, she helped me hold myself together ... as our love for each
other deepened, marriage seemed like the natural thing to do.

Terry

Rachael and I have a similar story to .-1; she had been a long-time
friend who was around to help me pick up the pieces after my first
marriage. We celebrate our fourth anniversary later this month...

As for living together first, I've done that both times (guess I'm
batting .500 :-) - I couldn't imagine dealing with the emotional upheaval
of a marriage (yes, it is quite an ordeal even if you're already POSSLQ's)
AT THE SAME TIME as moving in together!

Bruce

    My husband and I began dating right before my 19th birthday, we married
    3 months before my 22nd birthday... My thoughts?  I knew as soon as I
    saw him that I was going to marry him; don't know how or why I just
    "knew" it.  This wasn't a case of love at first site or anything 'cause
    we hadn't even spoken yet - it was just a feeling. A few years after
    we'd married my husband confessed that when he'd heard my name called
    in class (we met in college and I missed the first English Lit class)
    he "had a feeling....." and knew we'd end up marrying.  We did not live
    together - more out of respect to my parents than any personal reason.
    My folks are *very* Greek and it just wasn't the proper thing to do and
    Art respected that.  Was I scared?  No.  We'll be celebrating 9 years
    in August and though we've been through ups and downs and at times
    wasn't sure we'd make it, we did, and I can say that I love Art
    and feel closer to him now more than ever. 
    
    			Billie

	Nancy and I celebrate #15 in December.  We, too, were good friends
before we began dating.  We met in College and she dated my Fraternity "big
brother" as well as providing a place to stay for all my girlfriends from 
other schools.  Our formal relationship lasted more that 3 years before we 
were married.  

	When I think back, our relationship deepened from friends to lovers
to mates.  The decision to get married was an easy one for us, as we both 
found ourselves growing and maturing together.  Our committment to each
other continually deepened to the point where it was "right" for us to get
married.

	I'm ecstatic to be able to say that we're still together.  It has
NOT been easy.  But the COMMITTMENT has ALWAYS been there.  There have been
times that it's been a lot of work, but I think it's been MORE than worth
it.

    Well, Daryl and I got to know each other inside out before we had
    ever laid eyes on each other (we fell in love via VMS 2.5 via the
    TALK and MAIL utilities when I was at college).  When we met, we
    had fell in love all over again.  We've had some real rough times
    and a couple of almost split-ups (luckily we both came to our senses
    before day 0 ever came about) and we'll be celebrating our 4th
    anniversary in late August.  The topic that got us talking was the
    fact that our birthdays are on the same day, and we were born almost
    at the same time, with the exception that he was born a year and
    45 minutes earlier than I was.  Our wedding day was extra special
    because we got married on our birthdays, his 21st, my 20th.  I'm
    quite sure we'll be together for the rest of our lives... since
    we've made it this far (with more than enough obstacles thrown our
    way), I think we'll make a lifetime of it!
    
    					*** Kristy ***

        I think that there are three important ingredients to a good
        marriage, and that one of the reasons that so many marriages
        fail is that we all too often misunderstand them. (Some of you
        will recognize some of this from Sexcetera, but I've been asked
        to speak at my sister's wedding and you're acting as guinea-
        pigs.) 
        
        First there is love. Love is not something that happens to us,
        it isn't a state, something we fall into and out of, or
        something that we feel. That's passion, infatuation, desire, or
        lust. Each of these can contribute to a good or pleasant
        marriage, but they are no substitute for love.
        
        Love is an action. It's something we do. It is valuing,
        considering and caring for someone as much as you value,
        consider and care for yourself. It is the great commandment in
        the realm of relationships among men. It's hard work, and
        it is at the core of every good relationship, especially
        a marriage.
        
        The second important contributor is trust. Recently I've heard
        several people express the opinion that a trust once broken can
        never be repaired. That is a tremendously dangerous notion. Once
        you've decided that you've doomed yourself. We humans are all
        fallible. Every trust will eventually inevitable be broken, bent
        or at least abused. If we allow that inevitable failure to
        destroy the trust, we can never win.
        
        Trust is like faith. We trust not because it is rational or
        because there is evidence. We don't trust only the proven or the
        perfect, but the unproven and the known imperfect. What we need
        to do is not to trust our loved one's to never fail us, but
        rather trust that even though they may fail us, they still care;
        that even though they may fail, they are trying. Trust is
        inherently risky and in a sense irrational.
        
        The last factor is commitment. Often we hear marriage spoken of
        as a contract, an agreement, a 50/50 proposition. In order to
        succeed, a marriage must be more than that. If two of us each
        mere "do our share", "carry our half of the burden",
        statistically 1/4 of the time we'll both be doing it. Half the
        time one or the other of us will be doing it, and 1/4 of the
        time *no-one* will be doing it.
        
        The way to make a marriage work is to first trust your spouse to
        do their part and then to do almost all of it yourself. If you
        both are giving 99%, then the marriage will only be unsupported
        one time in 10,000. In 50 years of marriage, that would be less
        than 2 days.
        
        JimB.

        Thanks Jim.  Good words.

        My only suggestion is to not forget that  communication,  or
        rather the lack of it, can be the death of any relationship.

        I don't just mean  talking,  but  LISTENING  WITH  ALL  YOUR
        ATTENTION, and TALKING WITH ALL YOUR HEART.  So much of what
        passes for communication just isn't.  Ever talk  to  someone
        lost  in a TV program?  They hear but they don't.  Or listen
        to someone who's gushing thousands of words, but  never  the
        ones from deep down.

        I guess this is a component of "Love", but still, it bears a
        little emphasis.

        Steve

	ZZZzzzzz...oh!  I guess I should say something here; after all, I am
    married and all.  I was reading the replies to this note a week ago or so,
    and I think I must have fallen asleep.  Please don't get me wrong!!!  It
    wasn't the content of the replies themselves (they were quite revealing),
    but I think it's more the subject matter.

	Let's face it, who want's to watch a movie about nothing but happy
    endings?  It would be like watching 2 hours worth of "Father Knows Best",
    or any number of other "perfect-family" sit-coms from the fifties.  Maybe
    that's why the Divorce note has 64 replies and this one has so few (no
    thanks to me).

	Well, I suppose I might as well spill my guts about my marriage, even
    though I will probably bore myself (as well as the rest of you) to sleep 
    talking about it...

	I met Karin at the annual ACM picnic at the City Park in Iowa City,
    Iowa at the end of the U. of I. spring semester of 1983.  She was the
    secretary of the local ACM chapter at the time, and had organized the
    picnic.  I can owe our meeting to the computer I guess, because it was
    her system message I read (advertising the picnic to all computer users)
    which prompted me to check it out and, at the time, I had no idea that she
    was the same blond-headed girl in my Digital Systems class.

	Someone had mentioned something about "knowing at first sight" that
    something was going to come of this meeting (no pun intended), but I had
    this feeling too as I was introduced to this girl who was standing at
    about a 45 degree angle from the ground due to the bench she had propped
    her leg against.  I didn't get to talk to her right away because she was
    also in charge of getting the keg (of beer) and had to dash off with some
    people to do that, but the next time I saw her, she walked up to me and
    stuffed a half of a Bratwurst in my mouth!  It was at this point that I
    knew something was up.

	Our dating period started that night and continued almost everyday,
    except for when she would go home to visit her family.  I didn't realize
    it until later, but she was still sort-of dating this guy from home who
    she had been dating for 6 or 7 years (the last 3 years in absentium and
    also intermixed with someone else at school).  It took me awhile to get
    over the fact that I wasn't the only person in her life (the way I had
    allowed her to become the only person in mine), but I later attributed
    most of that to my own insecurities, as well as the fact that my life had
    not produced a relationship which (to this day) has ever lasted that long.
    Besides, this guy had turned out to be more of a friend than a lover anyway,
    so the fact that she went to a movie with him once when she went home while 
    we were first dating shouldn't matter, except that if I had known, I might
    have gone out with someone too (vacations alone can be devastating when you
    have the "horse-blinds" on).

	Anyway, we were finally married a little over a year ago back in 
    Rockford, Illinois (her home town)...sorry, I chickened out and censored
    the rest of this story.  If you were quick enough, you might have read
    the sordid details of our "courtship", but to save my marriage (as well
    as my *ss) I decided to edit this portion out.  Maybe I'll fill you in
    via mail if you're interested.

							-davo

I agree with DAVO - I feel I shold say something also - after all I'm
    married to.  
    
    When my husband and I first met I knew he was for me.  We dated
    that night and every night since.  I met him when I was 16 - got
    married at 18.  It's been three years now and I think marriage is
    great.  We have our share of fights (even brutal ones) but in the
    end the same thing always pulls us back together again - the fact
    that we love each other,  And let's face it - you'll ALWAYS argue
    with the ones you love.
    
    

    
    	RE: .11
    
      >                                      Let's face it - you'll
      > always argue with the ones you love...
    
    	I thought the name of that tune was "You'll always *hurt*
    	the ones you love". :^)
    
    	C.	

    You're right, but arguements *hurt*
    

re: arguments,

	...if you win that is.  :v)

	Did I just say that?			No I did!

	Oh, ok.					Whadaya mean OK!!!

	Shut-up!				You shut-up!

	I'm not saying anything!		You just did!

	No I didn't!				Yes you did!

	No I didn't!				Yes you did!

	No I didn't!				Yes you did!

	Bitch.					Jerk.

	...					...

	Forgive me?				yeah, let's go to bed.

	Ok, I get top.				Forget it!...



							-DAV0

	No bunkbeds here, only the occasional couch.  Then again,
    tonight I spent the night with my secret lover (my real VAX cluster).
    JUNIPR and I have got to stop meeting MRSVAX like this.  I mean,
    she is married isn't she?  I just wonder what ever happened to
    MRVAX... if he finds out - oh boy!

						-DAV0

	Shhhh!....MRVAX might be listening!

    Is this to imply that most arguements turn into 
    a contradiction battle ?  I experience this all
    the time.  (IE: Your hurt me, I hurt you)

    There must be some guidelines that some couples
    have set up to aviod the situation that inspires
    the growth of contradiction in a discussion...

    Re .18:
        I think I could safely generalize that most arguments, between
    husband and wife or anyone else, degenerate into contradiction
    battles.  It stems from the basis of most arguments being two
    dissimilar opinions on something that can't be proven one way or
    another.  Another contribution is the persistence of people who
    deny being wrong.
    
    					Steve
    
    "I'm looking for an argument."  "No you're not."

    RE:  18,19
    
    In all seriousness:  don't other couples/friends use the age old
    "I guess that is one we'll have to agree to disagree on..." before
    it degerates?  
    
    Audrey

	Let's face it: arguing can be fullfilling.  It's free, it's
    exciting, it's rapid, it burns calories, it's sometimes violent, it's
    alot like sex and that's why it sometimes results in sex.  

	I myself prefer laughter.  It is also stimulating, etc., but it
    is alot more sane (in a monty-python sort of view of the world) and
    sex resulting from a laughing fit is much more satisfying.

	It all depends on whether you want to grow old with deep creases
    in your eye-brows (from too much frowning), or with crow's feet (from
    smiling too much).  You do have another choice: no creases at all from
    never getting excited about anything (and dropping dead).

    							-DAV0

    p.s.  my crows feet are growing steadily larger.

    I used to think that arguments in a marriage were bad.  Now I realize
    that a lack of arguing means that discontent stays buried and
    smoulders for a long time, possibly destroying the marriage.  I
    think that a healthy marriage includes its share of healthy arguments,
    as long as things don't get too out of hand (throwing vases, knives,
    etc.)  It's too much to ask that two people agree on EVERYTHING
    all the time.
    
    For what it's worth, my wife and I rarely argued, and that was
    possibly a contribution to our breakup.  On my part, I have learned
    that I can't always insist on being right.
    
    					Steve

    A minor point, but it seems that marital violence is assumed to
    be a male phenomena - Just curious if it seems this way to others.

	I get hit in the stomach (by my wife) almost everytime I tell a
    dirty joke.  Most of the time, I'm so conditioned to this, that I auto-
    matically hunch over and protect myself whilst I laugh at my ditty, but
    every once in a long while it rubs me wrong and I get pissed.

	I've talked to Karin about this habit of hers and she admits that
    she doesn't usually even realize that she's doing it.  It's just part
    of the Karin and Davo show I guess...

							-davo

    p.s.  I have a real aversion to hitting anybody back (especially a girl),
	does this mean I'm a wimp?  How about a sexist pig?  How about an idiot?

    Being called a girl is sort of like getting carded when you enter
    a nightclub -- the older you get, the more of a compliment it becomes!
    
    					About_to_be_flamed_at_Pat

FLAME ON

	Oh boy, here we go again off on another tangent talking about
    those nasty little prepositions!  I wonder how many notesfile disscussions
    have been contaminated by these tangents?

FLAME OFF	

	Anyway, I have an aversion to hitting back (especially a FEMALE).
    Now, am I sexist?  etc., 

							-davo  

    	Sorry guys and gals, I'm not sure what came over me there?  I guess
    I was reliving a similar digression in the HUMAN::DIGITAL notesfile a
    while back.

    	Anyway, I guess I really blew this conversation right out of the
    water, I'll see if I can't wipe the foam off my mouth and start over again.

    							-davo

    p.s.  Have a good one Don, we'll miss you in the notesfiles - so
    	hurry back!

    Well Davo, look at it this way: by hitting you in the stomach your
    wife is doing wonders for your muscles -- keep telling those dirty
    ones and you'll avoid a pot belly!  Maybe I should talk to my wife
    about that one...

    re.26 why do you tell dirty jokes?
    

	Believe me, my stomach muscles are shot from sitting hunched over
    a terminal for 10+ hours a day.  The only reason I flinch when my wife
    starts hitting, is because I don't think I could sustain a direct hit
    anymore.  Besides, even the best can be put-away with a quick kidney-
    punch; "The Great Houdini" had a stomach of steel, but died the same
    night that a kid punched him unexpectedly in the stomach.

							-davo 

    re:.34
    
    Why does anyone tell any joke?
    
    --- jerry

    re.-1
    well, some jokes are funny and most people appreciate and enjoy
    a little levity.
    but some jokes are offensive.
    and with all these intelligent w.c.4 college educated people in
    dec i would have thought that neanderthal sexist offensive jokes
    would have been disposed of.
    but, if you can't see the difference between offensive jokes
    and nonoffensive jokes, check out the difference between monty
    python and benny hill.
    
    rik s.
    

    re: 38
    
    Couldn't agree more, and if I remember the ole college psycho agrees!
    
    I do know one thing though, my wife is my best friend and if you
    can't tell your best friend a joke any joke,What the Hey!
    
    As a matter of fact her jokes are better!
                                                                 
    Cal
    

RE: .37
    
    I like both Benny Hill and Monty Python.  Which do you consider
    offensive and which not offensive?
    
    						Pat

re: 41,

	What do you mean when you said that "Monty Python uses offensiveness
    for humour"?  I see nothing offensive in their humor, in fact, I see that
    they make fun of offensive things.  Is this what you meant?

							-davo

re: Monty Python,

	We just watched "The Life of Brian" again (for about the tenth
    time) tonight.  Great stuff!  I think this one's my favorite Monty
    Python movie of all next to "In Search of The Holy Grail" and "Jaberwocky".
    I know what you mean about "The Meaning of Life", it has it momments, but
    tends to jump around a little too much and tries to be like there old T.V.
    series (which is hard to out-do).

	I also enjoyed the more recent "The Missionary", along with John
    Clese's "Meetings Bloody Meetings", but the wildest thing to come out of
    this bunch recently is the new movie by Terry Gilliam called "Brazil".
    It's got some good humor, but is mostly a gloomy 1984-type image of the
    future and is/was banned in the states (along with several other countries)
    for awhile because of it's "subversive" message; pretty mild subversion,
    but a great movie!

							-davo


    p.s.  Monty Python keeps our marriage together by keeping us laughing.

    Now things are *really* getting off the point!
    
    re:.37
    
    Yes, many jokes are offensive, but the question becomes "offensive
    to whom?" Because *you* think a joke is tasteless, dirty, sexist,
    racist, whatever doesn't mean that someone else finds it so. My
    position has always been that a joke is either funny or it isn't
    funny, regardless of the target. If it's funny, I laugh (*even*
    if I'm the target); if it isn't, I don't. I'm sure I said this
    somewhere else (in some other conference), but I feel that our
    greatest gift is to be able to laugh at our foibles, misfortunes,
    shortcomings, and our very being. Otherwise, I don't see much
    point to life.
    
    --- jerry

    re.40 monty python, benny hill
    	neither.
    	i find monty python to be intellectually humorous.
    	i find benny hill blatanly sexist.
    	all his jokes are based on nudity and touching and chasing women.
    	this is funny? I'm not offended by him or his "humor", I just
    don't think that a constant barrage of sex is funny.
    
    	

    
    
    I've just recently got into this notes file.  i've got to agree
    with .22 & .23.  Laughter is the best thing for a marriage.  i was
    married 7 yrs. in my first marriage.  We **never** fought, maybe
    that was the problem.  We just grew apart.  He loved everything
    the way it **was**, but i was changing.  He is a good man, but he
    should have beeen my friend, not my husband.  I have since remarried
    and have been married now for 17 yrs.  My husband and i laugh **alot**.
    Sometimes it's either that or cry.  I think the thing I love most
    about my husband is a fairness, consideration, gentleness and last
    but not least his sense of humor.
    
    Marriage may not be for everyone, but it's the only place to be
    for me.  I guess I'm lucky -- both my husbands are good folks, it
    just didn't work with the first one.  Today we are very good friends.
    which I'm sorry to say most people can't understand.  
    

    
    How often has it been said that a marriage is not truly a marriage
    unless it is first a friendship? How true this is, and how true
    that the satisfaction found in friendship lies not so much in achieving
    interpersonal skills as in developing ways and times of relating
    that build meaning upon meaning. Lesley Barfoot
    
    Marriage is giving. It is a commitment to seek the other's good,
    not just temporality, but "till death do us part". M.P. Horban
    
    If wives and husbands would practice giving love instead of waiting
    to receive it, I doubt if there would ever be a divorce. But when
    two people choose a mate on the basis of what they expect to get
    out of their partner, they are bound for divorce, because each is
    waiting to receive. Dave Imbach
    
    Choose a wife by your ear rather than by your eye. Thomas Fuller
    
    
    
                        RM