Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kristy, that experience and knowledge
    are what SHOULD (and I don't use that word casually!!) be considered
    in hiring someone for ANY position, rather than their title!!  After
    all, if only title counts, how can a "homemaker" EVER re-enter the
    jobmarket!!  Did you mention this point to the 2 who "balked" and
    if so, what did they have to say in their defense (if anything!!).
    
    					Joe

    re .2:  I did talk to a technical person - he was one of the ones who
    balked at my interest in the job.  The first guy who 'balked' came
    right out and asked me "How do you expect to get a system manager
    job when you're a secretary?"  I shot back (none to happily), "How
    many "Secretaries" do YOU know can install a VAX 8200 and run hardware
    diagnostics on it?"  I never did get an answer out of him.  
    
    					*** Kristy ***

Sorry to hear there are such short-sighted people around,
Kristy.  You might be interested to know that, a number of
years ago when I was first at DEC, there was a woman working
in "tape prep" as it was called at the time, i.e. keypunch
operator.  She is now a Consulting Engineer, serves on several
corporate committees, and is working on research projects.
It _can_ be done!

    re:.3
    
    When asked, "How do you expect to get a system manager job when
    you're a secretary?" you should have replied, "By virtue of the
    fact that, regardless of my title, I've been a de facto system
    manager for the past n months."
    
    You can try to console yourself by asking yourself, "Would I
    have wanted to work for someone with that kind of attitude,
    anyway?" Remember, he's not only interviewing you, *you* are
    interviewing *him* at the same time.
    
    --- jerry

    If you are still interested in working in that particular group, you
    should talk to our internal Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) office.
    According to the red March 1986 phonebook, (under "PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT
    -- CORPORATE) Corporate EEO is at (dtn)223-5519.  They can point you at
    the correct EEO department to call if they aren't the right one. 
    
    If they suspect that you were a victim of discrimination (yes we know
    you were, but I mean once they agree with you), they will investigate
    the situation and initiate an internal action on *your* behalf.  As my
    wife used to work in the Field EEO group for a couple of years, I know
    2nd hand that they really do "do their stuff".  (Those EEO people just
    *love* to rake up the muck.)
    
    Even if you don't want that job anymore, I would suggest that you
    give EEO a call.  When EEO talks to them, the "warning shot across
    the bow" effect can help dissuade them from ever doing it again.
    ("If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.")
    
    jdr

    Yes, it CAN be done!!  I did it!  Two years ago I entered DEC
    as a Sr. Secretary for the Artificial Intelligence Technology
    Group.  In that time, I have risen from Senior Secretary to
    Admin. Secretary to Technical Administrator to my current
    position, Cluster Manager.  A lot of the thanks goes to a
    great bunch of people and a manager who really believed in me.
    They trained me for about a year for the job, which I took
    over this past February.  
    
    I really enjoy my job, and I enjoy the people I work with.
    I really think you want to find a group that appreciates 
    your work experience and NOT your job title.  They really
    do exist at DEC, and I work for one of them.  I'm sure there
    are others.  Don't get discouraged.  I agree with the other
    who said that YOU are interviewing THEM as well.  You need
    to find people you're comfortable with.
    
    Best of luck, and keep trying!
    
    Mary-Michael Cochrane

    Thanks for all the support, everybody.  re (Jerry B's reply) - It's
    right on my resume (before the Sr. Secretary part as a matter of
    fact) that I've been System Manager since October of 84.
    
    In the group I'm currently working in, my manager is 100% behind
    me getting into a System Management job... the problem in my group
    is the Cost Center Manager who thinks that the System Management
    work I do 'is a hobby'.  I've asked to take the appropriate courses
    to 'broaden my horizons' but the CC Mgr nipped that in the bud,
    whereas my boss would have said 'Go for it.'  The CC Mgr also won't
    approve a req for an Operations Analyst or Programmer/Analyst type
    position.  My boss would have hired me in as an Operations Analyst
    had the CC Manager not said 'Forget it'.  Therefore, I am looking
    at other opportunities... I've had two interviews where the hiring
    managers were real interested, but in the first instance, Personnel
    and his Upper Management forced him to hire someone who had been
    in Computer Operations for about 5 years, and in the second instance,
    the Cost Center dissolved.  All I can do is keep looking.  Something
    will come up SOMEWHERE!!!!  (hopefully in Merrimack, Nashua, or
    Salem, NH!!!)
    
    						*** Kristy ***

    re .8	I don't see this as an EEO'able issue.  However wrong
    the involved parties may be in making assumptions about experience
    and qualification based on formal job title, it doesn't seem to
    come under the heading of discrimination.  I would have thought
    the old open door policy would have worked; have the supporting
    direct manager take it up the line, if (s)he's not willing then
    investigate why (more training, etc.) or conclude, "no guts", in
    which case keep looking ELSEWHERE !
    
    	Reg
    

	If this was a lateral internal transfer, then 
	you can not really move from a Sec to Sys Mang --
	is this what happened (just went through it myself!)

	Michael

    I've the expression many times, but have never fully understood
    what is meant by "lateral internal transfer". 
    
    I just looked in PPP and found nothing on 'lateral internal transfer'.
    Could someone enlighten me a little?
    
    			Thanks.
    
    						*** Kristy ***

    In general what it means is that you transfer from on position to
    another that is in the same pay scale range and with in your abilities.
    Ya I know its a gray area.
    
    But you could request a job study as to what are the job
    classifications  of people who are doing "systems management".
    
    By the way I happen to know of a secretary who is now doing
    "system management". If you are interested in talking to her give
    me a call.
    
    dave

    re: .11
    
    Whether this is an EEO'able issue is for EEO to decide.  We do not know
    why she was turned down they way she was.  EEO's job, once a complaint
    is filed, is to find out why. 
    
    I assume Kristy's a woman.  (Correct me if I'm wrong...)  This at the
    very least will cause EEO to be interested in it.  Given that "some
    kind" of discrimination did occur, the question is: was it because
    she's a secretary, or a secretary AND a woman, or a woman WHO HAPPENS
    TO BE a secretary, etc. 
    
    I think it is at least possible that she was treated badly because of
    sexist beliefs.  ("Nah, she's just another girly secretary".)  Why are
    you are so certain that this isn't the case?  If you know that it isn't
    then share your knowledge with the rest of us. 
    
    From semi-personal experience (via my wife, as mentioned in .8) I can
    tell you *without a doubt* that there are some very grey areas in the
    guidelines concerning when EEO comes into play.  For instance, even if
    only some fraction of the issues were sexist, EEO would be justified in
    getting involved.  It doesn't have to be 100% of the reason.
    
    FYI, the person filing the complaint is protected under the law
    from any reprisals or future discrimination from that party.  And
    those guys mean business.
    
    
    jdr

    re .15	I'm NOT certain that this isn't a case of sexism at
    work, just that Kristy hadn't infereed that she thought it might
    have been.  I can see the female<->secretary connection but was
    looking at the technical<->nontechnical mismatch, which is what
    the parties involved appeared to be focussing on.  I saw more of
    para 2) below than para 1), though a silver tongue could have said
    2) while meaning 1).
    
    1)	You are a woman still in what is a traditionally a female job,
    therefore I don't think you qualify for this job, which is traditionally
    filled by men. 
    
    2)	The jobs you have been in are all non-technical.  It is very
    unusual, though not impossible, for a person to gain technical
    experience in those jobs which would be relavent to the opening
    we have.  So unusual in fact, that I will not be able to convince
    my manager to hire you.

    	I'm not advocating that Kristy NOT take this up with EEO folks,
    just that I think the open door thing would probably work better.  This
    opinion is based solely on my own experiences, your's may be very
    different. 
    
    	Reg
    

    Hey, this is an interesting note but this isn't the HUMAN::DIGITAL
    conference, is it?
    
    The .0 author certainly has the right to post the note anywhere, but
    I've got to point out that topics of employee relations at Digital
    "belong" to HUMAN::DIGITAL since, indeed, most people expect to read
    about them in that conference. 

    Re: .16:
    
    Well, "maybe, maybe not".  My point is that EEO does not deal in cases
    of "discrimination due to x, y, z, or q".  It deals with ANY decision
    which can be shown to not have been completely based on professional,
    objective considerations.  The precise nature of the discrimination is
    not of primary importance. 
    
    Since her experience seems based at least in part on something which
    had nothing to do with her professional qualifications, I believe EEO
    would be interested.  Whether she calls or not is up to her; the worst
    they can say is, "Sorry, but we can't help you."  'Nuff said. 

    
    Re: .17:
    
    DIGITAL and HUMAN_RELATIONS do overlap in places.  That should be
    ok.

    The reason I put this note in here is because it is more of a Human
    Relations type topic, than a practice that Digital makes.  I went
    on another System Management interview this morning, and didn't
    get any bad feelings from the person I was interviewed by.  He
    treated me like I knew something at least and he wasn't constantly
    staring at my resume instead of me (in fact, I don't even remember
    seeing my resume in his office). Hmmmm. ;-)
    
    						*** Kristy ***

    I just read this today, and want to say something because others
    who are new to Digital (or just brand new to working in general)
    might get what I think is a wrong impression, especially after reading
    .8, .15 and .18.
    
    First, the open door policy here at DEC works as well as the managers
    who implement it.  In most cases, because the policy is actually
    just that - a "policy" - people are promoted to managers only if
    they are capable of manageing other people.  To become a manager,
    you must pass a formal, board review, during which time many personal
    traits are meassured.  Seniority does not gurantee a management
    position.  (Note:  There are always exceptions.  If you're reading
    this conference, you quickly get the feel for how many different
    types of people there are in the world - managers included.  In
    general, I believe most managers in DEC are fair, and I think that
    it would be more appropriate to say that the open door policy sometimes
    doesn't work, than to condemn it so much as in .15.)
    
    Finally, with regard to calling EEO.  Boy!!!   You should be very
    sure before you do because it is serious.  To that extent I agree
    with .8, .15 and .18.  But to just pick up the phone and start an
    investigation based on discrimation (especially as described in
    .0) could cause problems for well-meaning *fellow* employees.
    
    If I were hiring a secretary, and a person came to me right off
    the GM assembly line, and that's all I could see on the resume,
    I might not even interview the person because I know I need someone
    who can type.  Likewise, if that person is internal to DEC, and
    has been wire-wrapping backplanes since being here, I might not
    jump at the chance to interview for a job that I have more qualified
    people to choose from.  Part of being a manager is being able to
    allocate time effectively, and interviews are a great disruption
    to the normal events of the day.
    
    In short, there's just not enough information anywhere in this
    particular topic to say that Kristy was actually discriminated against.
    But .18 seems to indicate that EEO is there for the drop of a hat.
    Let them figure out if it's discrimination or not?  That takes time,
    too.  If you ever want to become a manager, be aware that time is
    a two-way street - your's and their's.  If you were to call EEO
    every time you thought there was some form of discrimination, it
    would get around, and you can bet that some one, some where, isn't
    goint to like it.  It'll come back to haunt you in one way or another.
    It's just too serious to be taken so lightly - and it's also very
    FORMAL.  Open door isn't formal, and besides, if you try open door
    first, you'll be talking with someone who should be able to help
    you decide more clearly if you've been discriminated against before
    you (possibly) make a fool of yourself and (maybe) wind up wasting
    a lot of time and energy for nothing.

    I agree with Peter in .20, and, moreover, don't want to see
    this conference used for "trial by media" of those who cannot
    defend themselves (or even for those who can).  This particular
    topic was begun before I became moderator - I would not allow it
    to be written today.
    
    Please understand that this does not mean that I am unsympathetic,
    but net-wide conferences are NOT the place to air such complaints.
    Many of us know of another well-known noter who got in SERIOUS
    trouble for something similar - don't make things worse than they
    are.
    					Steve

That is not always the case, but Kristy should fight for what she wants,
    go through the chain of command, if that doesn't work, go straight
    to the top.  If that means EEO, go for it.  In this day and age,
    it's a shame that we women still have to fight for what we've already
    earned.  I don't support ERA, but want to be appreciated and paid
    equally  as a man for the same job.
    frankie
    

    I assume Kristy has already found her job, but if she hasn't, or
    someone else out there is in the same situation, here's a technique
    a friend of mine tried that proved very successfull.
    
    	Rewrite your resume, but this time leave out all job titles.
    
    My friend, who was also a secratery, did this, and sent out her
    resume to the same distribution that was not interested before.
    She set up several interview loops that way, and ended up in a job
    that was perfect for her.  They looked at the description of the
    job she had been doing, and not some pre-concieved notions of the
    job title.
    
    Hope this helps someone else out there...
    mary

    Re: .25
    
    > Right ! Managers are not selected by a Board Review (not ALL
    maangers) anyway.
    
    That may be a true statement at the Mill and other non-field managerial
    positions, but in the field you must go before a Management Development
    Committee before being offered a manager's job.  The purpose of
    that committee is to determine your readiness for management
    both from a knowledge of DEC, DEC's policies and procedures, and
    are you are given situations to which you must apply the afore
    mentioned knowledge and general managerial knowledge (gained from
    classes, books, experience, etc).  The committee then says whether you
    are currently ready for a management position, or need further
    development such as courses, given tasks that will develop the areas
    you are weak in or maybe you aren't suited for management.  Even if you
    are told that you aren't suited for management you can on your own
    correct those areas in which you were deficient and go before the
    committee again.  If I have mistated anything here please someone let
    me know.
    
    
    JEF (who is starting to prepare for the committee)

    Hi Kristy,
    
    I work in Geneva Headquarters and I think that there is more
    discriminition here in Europe than in the US, your topic was
    very interesting for me to read but I am curious now, have you
    found a job now ?
    
    Olga

    I finally did find a manager who believed in me.  On December 22,
    1986, I started in the position of Operations Analyst Trainee, only
    because my salary from being a secretary was so low.  This past
    September 14, I moved into another group (the other group got absorbed,
    therefore breaking my 1 year commit) and got a promotion to Associate
    Ops Analyst.  It is in my career plan to make me a full-blown Ops
    Analyst (WC 4) as soon as budget allows.  Thanks for all the helpful
    advice.
    
    						*** Kristy ***