Conference bookie::movies

Not exactly cheerful films but both very good. _Raise the Red Lantern_ is
especially beautiful with sumptous use of colors. Red Lantern was nominated
for an Academy Award for best foreign language film a couple of years ago,
_Mediterraneo_ won and while I like it a lot I thought Red Lantern was the
better film.


Randy

    Ju Dou was the man, not the woman.

>>    Ju Dou was the man, not the woman.

	Not so.  Ju Dou was definitely the woman.

    Hmmmm, then why does she call him Ju Dou?  After all, the story was
    about him, not her.

    
    	Was that the character played by Jaye Davidson?
    

>>    Hmmmm, then why does she call him Ju Dou?

  She doesn't.  She calls him by his name, which is Tianching,  
  or something like that.  Their son is Tianbai, I believe.
  I just watched it a few days ago.

>>    After all, the story was about him, not her.

  It's about both of them. but her arrival on the scene is what sets
  the whole story in motion, so it's arguably more about her.

>  It's about both of them.

    I haven't seen that one, but I saw "Raise The Red Lantern" and was struck
    by how the movie so clearly focused on the female characters, to the point
    that in every scene involving the husband, the camera draws back in such a
    way that you never get a good look at him. He's not a person in the movie
    at all, but an anonymous male force that has confined the women and pitted
    them against each other. It's like he represents society and the system and
    can only appear symbolically, anonymously. The women, competing constantly
    for his favor, don't really have a relationship with him.

    I was fascinated by this movie, not just by the story, but in the way
    every single scene and camera angle seems designed to make you really
    feel the sense of confinement these women must be feeling. You can
    easily see how their competition with each other becomes so important.
    They're trapped, imprisoned, stripped of all identity, reduced to being
    called by the number that indicates the order in which they were
    acquired. They're lonely, bored, and desperate for any kind of
    recognition. Somehow the movie makes them look like a bunch of
    laboratory rats caught in an impenetrable maze, then makes sure you
    recognize how completely human they are. It's real cinematic art, in my
    opinion. No other medium could have conveyed this story so well and
    this particular effort was masterful.

    John

    no you big silly.  different films, different countries.  We're talking
    about 2 Zhang Yimou films.  I've seen every one of his films, even the
    ones he made before he became a director.  He used to be an actor.

    Re:.9
    
    The description of "Raise the Red Lantern" in note .0 perfectly matches
    the film I saw. Are you saying that this same story has been filmed
    twice in different countries and the movies given the same name?
    
    John

    Yes, her arrival did set the story in motion, but he wanted the silk
    works before she arrived.  I viewed it more as how illicit love,
    deceit, and murder (typical Asian themes) bring about destruction.  You
    have to admit, though, that her husband was a scumbag and deserved what
    he got.

>>                     <<< Note 451.11 by PCBUOA::BELLOWS >>>

>>    Yes, her arrival did set the story in motion, but he wanted the silk
>>    works before she arrived.  

	We can assume that he wanted the silk works before she arrived,
	that's fine.  But it was her arrival, the subsequent infatuation
	and illicit affair, the illegitimate child, etc. that made the
	story.  There would have been no story otherwise, in fact.  So it's
	not surprising that the film was named after that character.

    That one of the many reasons that I like Asian films.  I have yet to
    see one where women are treated like large-breasted, empty-headed
    adornments as they are in American films.  The story of Qi Jou, also by
    Zhang Yimou and also starring Gong Li, is another excellent Chinese
    film.

>>    That one of the many reasons that I like Asian films.  I have yet to
>>    see one where women are treated like large-breasted, empty-headed
>>    adornments as they are in American films.

	Er, except that in Ju Dou, she was treated like chattel and
	beaten upon by the husband who bought her.  An even more
	horrible image, in a way.
  

>	Er, except that in Ju Dou, she was treated like chattel and
>	beaten upon by the husband who bought her.  An even more
>	horrible image, in a way.
  
What happens to a person in a film is much different from the way they use
a person in a film...

For the most part, women in american films are USED because of their sex...
i.e. their bodies are exploited...

In Ju Dou, Gong Li is not exploited... Sure, her character goes thru a bunch
of painfull experiences, but the actress is not exploited in any way.

I think this is the difference the previous noter was trying to convey...

/scott

>>I think this is the difference the previous noter was trying to convey...

	The way it was said, it's open to interpretation, so perhaps
	you're right as to the noter's intent.  Women are both used
	_and_ treated in such a way in American films (though not solely in
	American films, certainly).

    re:  .10
    
    No, I was referring to comment .6

    re: .15
    
    Exactly.  Thank you Scott.

    I think that was my whole point.  She was definitely a catalyst.  I can
    only say that I will have to see this film again to see who was who. 
    I'm so rarely wrong about these things (;-)), but I will always admit it 
    when I am.  If you liked the Gongster in Ju Dou, try seeing The Story
    of Qi Jou (sp?).
    
    BTW, have you seen Red Firecracker, Green Firecracker?

                     <<< Note 451.19 by PCBUOA::BELLOWS >>>

    >>I can
    >>only say that I will have to see this film again to see who was who. 

	How nice.

    re: .20
    
    Crikey!  Sarcasm.

>The Story of Qi Jou (sp?).

I've looked but never found this on tape - is it out? Where??? I really
want to see this one...
    
>BTW, have you seen Red Firecracker, Green Firecracker?

Never heard of it, but I did see Red Sorghum this weekend - great movie!!!
I thought it was just OK at first, but once the Japanese got involved, I
really got into this film... The stuff the kid does at the end really moved
me.

/scott

    Actually, I think it's spelled Qui Ju.  It's out on video and any good
    video store with a foreign film section should have it, especially if
    they have Red Sorghum (I think City Video in Porter Square has it). 
    
     Red Firecracker, Green Firecracker is at the Coolidge Corner, and you
    can still catch The Story of Xinghua and Ermo at the MFA (both end the
    27th).

    The Story of `Qiu Ju' where I saw it. 
    
    See also topic 496 for a related discussion.
    
    Note that Gong Li also stars in Farewell My Concubine (topic 419) as
    well as many of Zhang Yimou's films.
    
    Due to the significance of the visual impact (mainly the use of colour
    as already mentioned) I would encourage you to see these films on the
    big screen where possible ... I haven't seen any of Zhang Yimou's works
    on video but I can't imagine them being comparable.
    
    Enough of my random babbling...
    
    John

>    big screen where possible ... I haven't seen any of Zhang Yimou's works
>    on video but I can't imagine them being comparable.

Well - on video they do lose something (i'd imagine)... But the only one
I've seen on a big screen was "Raise the Red Lantern". It blew me away
at the theater. So I got the letterboxed laserdisc version, and it is
still just as awsome on the TV. I think, as long as the movie keeps the
letterbox look, they should be fine on video. (of course, video's usually
don't do this...)

/scott

p.s. BTW, I saw Outbreak last weekend - it started letterboxed - I thought
     "I hope it's not just for the credits!" but of course, after the credits
     were done, it was no longer letterboxed. DOOOH!!! I HATE when they do 
     that!

    and don't forget Betty from Beijing.

    Once again we see the perils of having more than 1 movie per note.
    
    I saw RTRL over the weekend. It does have a lot of interesting imagery
    and symbolism, but also had a lot of defects, mostly in the way the
    actors behaved. A couple of examples after the <FF>.
    
    Still, a movie worth watching if you haven't seen it.
    
    (SPOILERs follow)
    
    
    Mistress #3's complaints of being "sick" on #4's wedding night, give me
    a break. "The Master" is a strong enough person to deal with that in a
    more forthright manner than caving in the way he did.
    
    Why is Mistress #1 so oooold? Why would "The Master" ever marry her?
    
    Mistress #3 can get away to the city for a liaison with the good Dr.
    If this is the case, why are these women shown as being cooped up?
    Why don't they go shopping more often?
    
    As near as I can tell, Mistress #4 was a little bitch from day 1, and
    got what she deserved.
    
      John

spoilers...


>    As near as I can tell, Mistress #4 was a little bitch from day 1, and
>    got what she deserved.

Well, it was made very clear in the start of the film that she was doing
something which she didn't want to do (i.e. become a concubine) so it was
not surprising that she didn't enjoy herself.

/scott

    spoilers (re: .27)
    
    
    
    It has been a few years since I saw this but my impression was...
    
    #1 was probably a lot younger when she became #1.
    
    While the husband ultimately had absolute authority he also allowed
    himself to be manipulated fairly easily.  Also there were traditions
    among the wives, or possibly in the culture in general, which he did
    not challenge.  He also seemed to have other interests than his
    concubines since he didn't spend to much time with them during the day.
    All of this contributed to him tolerating a certain amount whereby the
    boundaries become clear in the movie.
    
    Anyhow, maybe I just wasn't paying attention but I wasn't bothered.
    
    John