Conference orarep::nomahs::dectrace_v20

	Hi Peter,

	Just so you don't think that we are ignoring you, I've sent
	mail to the people responsible for the DBAPack for Rdb asking
	them to review your question and provide me some information.

	Expert and Trace are seperate products and are not part
	of the DBAPack for Rdb7.

	Currently Expert 3.2 and Trace 2.2 are the current releases for
	Rdb and are distributed as part of the Rdb Tools CD.

	For Oracle 7 Expert and Trace are both part of OEM Performance
	Pack. These are seperate products and have nothing to do with Rdb.
	
	Future releases of OEM for Rdb will include Trace and Expert as
	part of the performance pack on Rdb.

	I don't have a copy of the CD in question, so if you could give
	me some additional information it would help me to track this
	down.

	When you say that Trace and Expert are on the CD with Rdb is the
	CD a strictly Rdb CD or does it also have Oracle7 products?

	Is there actually a kit for Trace and Expert on the CD? Does the
	Rdb DBApack documentation reference Trace and Expert?

	Hope that this hasn't confused you more. If you have additional
	clarification on where the confusion lies I will get the product
	managers to address the issue. 

	Thanks,
	Sheri

>	I don't have a copy of the CD in question, so if you could give
>	me some additional information it would help me to track this
>	down.

    The full title is "Oracle RDB7 Client for WIN3.1/WIN NT/Win 95/Nt
    Alpha/MAC/SOLARIS/DIGITAL UNIX". The part number is A48650-1.
    
>	When you say that Trace and Expert are on the CD with Rdb is the
>	CD a strictly Rdb CD or does it also have Oracle7 products?

    The list of products is Oracle Enterprise Manager DBAPack for Rdb;
    Oracle ODBC driver for Rdb; Oracle SQL/Services for DECnet; Oracle
    SQL/Services for TCP/IP; and Oracle SQL/Services for SPX/IPX.
    Despite this the OEM kit looks like an Oracle7 product as far as I can
    tell. 
    
>	Is there actually a kit for Trace and Expert on the CD? Does the
>	Rdb DBApack documentation reference Trace and Expert?
    
    There appear to be Trace and Expert kits, and there is definitely
    documentation for them (and Oracle7). The documentation exclusively
    concerns using Trace and Expert with Oracle7. E.g. Rdb is not mentioned
    in the list of products instrumented for Trace.
    
    There is no real "Rdb DBApack" documentation. Just some Windows help
    files, one of which appears to be corrupt. 

>	Hope that this hasn't confused you more. If you have additional
>	clarification on where the confusion lies I will get the product
>	managers to address the issue. 
 
    My guess is that a complete Oracle7 OEM kit was included, but since
    most customers who receive it will be Rdb only customers. The
    documentation (i.e. the readme files) needs to be clearer.
    
    Would you like me to submit a documentation bug?
    
    Peter

>>         <<< Note 451.2 by UKVMS3::PJACKSON "Oracle UK Rdb Support" >>>

>>    The full title is "Oracle RDB7 Client for WIN3.1/WIN NT/Win 95/Nt
>>    Alpha/MAC/SOLARIS/DIGITAL UNIX". The part number is A48650-1.

I don't have the official CD but I have what should be a copy of it...
    
>>    Despite this the OEM kit looks like an Oracle7 product as far as I can
>>    tell. 

What exactly do you mean by this?  That you're thinking you should be able 
to launch Rdb client apps from OEM?
    
>>    There appear to be Trace and Expert kits, and there is definitely
>>    documentation for them (and Oracle7). The documentation exclusively

What directory are you looking it?  I didn't see anything that looked to me 
like Trace or Expert kits but I could have easily missed it.

>>    concerns using Trace and Expert with Oracle7. E.g. Rdb is not mentioned
>>    in the list of products instrumented for Trace.

What specific documentation are you looking at?  There is a bunch on CD and 
some isolation would help.
    
>>    There is no real "Rdb DBApack" documentation. Just some Windows help
>>    files, one of which appears to be corrupt. 

Which file?

>>    Would you like me to submit a documentation bug?

I think we need more specific information on where on the CD you're looking 
would help before submitting a bug.

>>>    The full title is "Oracle RDB7 Client for WIN3.1/WIN NT/Win 95/Nt
>>>    Alpha/MAC/SOLARIS/DIGITAL UNIX". The part number is A48650-1.

>I don't have the official CD but I have what should be a copy of it...
    
    We always try to get the official kit so that we can see what
    customer's actually receive.
    
>>>    Despite this the OEM kit looks like an Oracle7 product as far as I can
>>>    tell. 

>What exactly do you mean by this?  That you're thinking you should be able 
>to launch Rdb client apps from OEM?
    
    I mean that is looks like an Oracle7 product. I am told that you can
    launch the DBApack products from it, but I haven't tried that.
    
>>>    There appear to be Trace and Expert kits, and there is definitely
>>>    documentation for them (and Oracle7). The documentation exclusively

>What directory are you looking it?  I didn't see anything that looked to me 
>like Trace or Expert kits but I could have easily missed it.
    
    WIN32\EXPERT and WIN32\TRACE
    
>>>    concerns using Trace and Expert with Oracle7. E.g. Rdb is not mentioned
>>>    in the list of products instrumented for Trace.

>What specific documentation are you looking at?  There is a bunch on CD and 
>some isolation would help.
    
    It is not well organised. The acrobat files are named by the part
    number, and I haven't found any index or list of contents. One set of
    documentation is in WIN95\DOC. A43689_1 is the "Oracle Enterprise
    Manager Oracle Expert User's Guide". A43696_1 is the "Oracle Enterprise
    Manager Oracle Trace Instrumenting Guide". I've just found that you can
    get to a list of the documentation, by selecting the first item in the
    table of contents - it was not obvious. A43697_1 is the "Oracle
    Enterprise Manager Oracle Trace User's Guide". This is the one that
    lists Oracle7 and SQL*Net as being the products that are already
    instrumented.
    
>>>    There is no real "Rdb DBApack" documentation. Just some Windows help
>>>    files, one of which appears to be corrupt. 

>Which file?
    
    I reported it in RDB_70. It is WIN95\RDBCLI\R7OEMCFG.HLP.
    
    Peter
         

>>         <<< Note 451.4 by UKVMS3::PJACKSON "Oracle UK Rdb Support" >>>

>>    We always try to get the official kit so that we can see what
>>    customer's actually receive.

Okay.
    
>>    I mean that is looks like an Oracle7 product. I am told that you can
>>    launch the DBApack products from it, but I haven't tried that.

I guess I still don't know what you mean by "looks like an Oracle7 
product".  OEM is an Oracle product and can be used for both Oracle7 and 
Rdb7.  The integration for Rdb7 is less than that for Oracle7 but you can 
launch the Rdb7 DBAPack apps from it.  

I'm assuming that you've installed this to see for yourself?  How are you 
invoking OEM?  I'm also assuming that you're thinking this is an "Oracle7 
product" because when you access the program group you see the Oracle7 
tools and not the Rdb tools?

Unfortunately, I can't install OEM with DBAPack since I'm running Windows 
NT 4.0 for which currently the OEM on the CD is not supported.  DBAPack 
will install, but not OEM.
    
>>   WIN32\EXPERT and WIN32\TRACE

I can look at this when I get in....
    

>I'm assuming that you've installed this to see for yourself?  How are you 
>invoking OEM?  I'm also assuming that you're thinking this is an "Oracle7 
>product" because when you access the program group you see the Oracle7 
>tools and not the Rdb tools?
    
    I didn't say I thought it was an Oracle7 product, I said I thought it
    looked like an Oracle7 product. This is because all the documentation
    is about how to use it with Oracle7. I haven't found any about using it
    with Rdb on the CD.
    
    I haven't installed it because the disk on our PC is full.
    
    Peter

	Thanks for the additional information Peter and Kathy,

	I've sent a message out to see if I can locate the CD in
	question and have the product management involved.

	I'll let them work the issue of clarifying the packaging
	of the product to lessen the confusion.

	Thanks,
	Sheri

	Hi,

	I've determined that in order for OEM to install for
	Rdb it needs to see the Trace and Expert directories.

	This is because the Rdb developers pulled the OEM
	code (from the Oracle7 side) and that's how the OEM installation
	code worked. So they pulled the entire directory with the files 
	as it was at the time for Trace, Expert, and any of the other OEM
	components, even though they all aren't available yet on the Rdb side. 

	Did the customer find some DBApack documentation that said something
	about Expert and Trace? Were they just looking around at the directories
	and found the files and started reading them? It's important for me to
	understand how they got to the files and the confusion, so that I can try
	to resolve this for future releases.

	The Rdb group is going to look to see if they can place just the empty
	directories there for the next release to avoid confusion.

	I'll work on this more and put additional information in as it becomes
	available.	

	Thanks,
	Sheri

>	This is because the Rdb developers pulled the OEM
>	code (from the Oracle7 side) and that's how the OEM installation
>	code worked. So they pulled the entire directory with the files 
>	as it was at the time for Trace, Expert, and any of the other OEM
>	components, even though they all aren't available yet on the Rdb side. 

    I guessed that that was what happened.

>	Did the customer find some DBApack documentation that said something
>	about Expert and Trace? Were they just looking around at the directories
>	and found the files and started reading them? It's important for me to
>	understand how they got to the files and the confusion, so that I can try
>	to resolve this for future releases.

    The customer was looking around the directories to find out what OEM
    would do for him, and how to install it. He has used Rdb, Trace, and
    Expert, but not Oracle7.

>	The Rdb group is going to look to see if they can place just the empty
>	directories there for the next release to avoid confusion.

    I think a simpler solution would be to improve the readme files. If
    they listed everything that is on the CD, and explained where to find the
    documentation and installations instructions for each product there
    would be no confusion. There are some customers for whom one combined
    OEM kit for Oracle7 and Rdb7 is what they want.
    
    Maybe something like this would do.
    
    "We have supplied a complete installation kit for the Oracle Enterprise
    Manager as part of the DBAPack for Rdb, allowing you to manage both
    Oracle7 and Rdb7 databases from one application. Some tools are only
    available for one database type. In particular, the versions of Oracle
    Trace and Oracle Expert are for Oracle7 only. Our aim is to add support
    for both databases for as many tools as possible in future."
    
    The readme files should also point out that SQL*NET is supplied on the
    CD, and a version of Oracle7 (and should say that in future it will be
    possible to use an Rdb database instead).
    
    Peter

 	Hi,

	I have the master copy of the CD. Under the top level
	directory on the CD there is a README file that 
	tells what products and platforms are included on the CD.
	It has a list of directories, one for each installable platform. 
	(the WIN32 directory is not mentioned, since it isn't one of 
	the platforms, just a directory that was needed for the installation)

	The top level README says to look in the directory that 
	corresponds to the platform you will be using for the appropriate
	README.

	This seems like a logical way to document this kit.
 
	I've asked engineering to see if they can remove the unused files, 
	and at the minimum remove all stray README files to help avoid future
	confusion.

	This includes the README files under the WIN32/SYSMAN/DOC,
	and the various other README files under the other WIN32
	subdirectories. I think that if they can remove the unused
	files, all subdirectories under the WIN32 will be empty.

	I also noticed that there is a readme.doc under the WIN95
	directory that talks about Personal Oracle7. I'll ask them
	if that is needed.
 
	I will turn this over to the Rdb engineers and let them determine
	the best solution.

	Hope this helps,
	Sheri

>	I have the master copy of the CD. Under the top level
>	directory on the CD there is a README file that 
>	tells what products and platforms are included on the CD.
>	It has a list of directories, one for each installable platform. 
>	(the WIN32 directory is not mentioned, since it isn't one of 
>	the platforms, just a directory that was needed for the installation)

>	The top level README says to look in the directory that 
>	corresponds to the platform you will be using for the appropriate
>	README.

>	This seems like a logical way to document this kit.
    
    Yes, it would be if it listed everything that is on the CD.
    
>	This includes the README files under the WIN32/SYSMAN/DOC,
>	and the various other README files under the other WIN32
>	subdirectories. I think that if they can remove the unused
>	files, all subdirectories under the WIN32 will be empty.
    
    SQL*Net is in there. Since SQL Services can already use SQL*Net as a
    transport, and will soon be able to act as an SQL*Net listener, I think
    it is right for it to be there. Of course, it should at least be
    mentioned in the readme files.

>	I've asked engineering to see if they can remove the unused files, 
>	and at the minimum remove all stray README files to help avoid future
>	confusion.
    
    Alternatively, they could document everything that is there.
    
>	I also noticed that there is a readme.doc under the WIN95
>	directory that talks about Personal Oracle7. I'll ask them
>	if that is needed.
    
    I was told is was included as a temporary measure since for either SQL*Net
    or OEM has a requirement for a database, and Rdb can't currently be
    used. Eventually it should be possible to use an Rdb database instead.  
                               
    Peter
    
         

	Hi Peter,

	At this point, I would request that you file a
	very specific documentation request with the
	Rdb DBApack group for the changes you'd like to see
	to the Readme file.

	That will be beneficial so that your request
	is officially documented with the appropriate
	people and they understand specifically where you
	think the improvements should be made.

	This will allow them to work with you directly
	to understand your needs.

	Thanks,
	Sheri