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Conference 7.286::pet_birds

Title:	Captive Breeding for Conservation--and FUN!
Notice:	INTROS 6.X / FOR SALE 13.X / Buying a Bird 900.*
Moderator:	VIDEO::PULSIFER

Created:	Mon Oct 10 1988
Last Modified:	Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	942
Total number of notes:	6016

818.0. "Hybrids" by RAGMOP::COMPTON () Fri Jul 30 1993 17:22

In the interests of discussion and exchange of information, I'd like to start
this topic as a new note (I know it has been discussed before elsewhere at
other times).  There seem to be differences of opinion on at least the 
following subtopics having to do with hybrids:

1) definition - what is a hybrid?

   possibilities....a)  a cross-breeding between two species, such as a
                        goldcap conure and a nanday conure; a blue & gold
		        macaw and a scarlet macaw, a society finch and
			a canary or other finch such as a zebra finch

		     b) an intra(inside of)species cross-breeding such
                        as a citron cockatoo and a lesser sulphur
                        crested cockatoo (there are three subspecies of
                        'lesser', including the citron), an eleanora
			cockatoo and a triton cockatoo (both are sub-
                        species of so-called 'greater' cockatoos

		     c) other?

2) results

   possibilities.....a) all dead in shell or non-fertile eggs or early
                         mortality of chicks (less than two weeks)

	             b) live, healthy chicks that are sterile (cannot
		        themselves produce offspring)..also called mules,
                        even in the bird fancy 
	          
                     c) live, healthy chicks that are capable of 
                        producing live young themselves (a nan-cap--
		        gold-cap and nanday conure cross-- could be
                        mated with another conure and produce young)

	 	     d) other?


Anybody out there with a degree in biology??  ;')

Thanks,

Linda

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
818.1	Look at the classification!	UTROP1::BOSMAN_P		`Wed Sep 01 1993 06:27`	16
	Linda, Don't get the classification in ordes, groups, species and subspecies mixed up. A hybrid is any offspring of individuals not belonging to the same subspecies. Individuals not belonging to the same species will not produce fertile offspring (this being one of the criteria for "species"). X-breeding between species under natural conditions is prevented by behavioral patterns. In my opinion hybrids should be frowned upon as it appearantly already too difficult to preserve the species. Peter
818.2	Continuing the dialogue....	RAGMOP::COMPTON		`Thu Sep 02 1993 17:36`	12
	So....Peter...here's the question being debated locally: Is a cross-breeding between a lesser sulphur crested cockatoo (one of the subspecies with yellow in the crest) and a citron cockatoo (a subspecies of the lesser, but has orange instead of yellow in the crest) considered hybridization? "Knowledgeable experts" here are in disagreement. This would be like crossing an cockatua eleaonora with a galerita galerita in the so-called 'greater' sulpher crested species. Linda
818.3	No issue! Just shows ignorance.	UTROP1::BOSMAN_P		`Fri Sep 03 1993 06:45`	22
818.4	Thanks for the clarification	RAGMOP::COMPTON		`Fri Sep 03 1993 19:47`	10
	Hi Peter, I will relay your answer to those concerned. This question has also come up with regard to Eastern Rosellas and the cecelia subspecies, also called here the Golden-Mantled Rosella. The names Eastern and Golden-Mantled names are often used interchangeably, which seems very incorrect to me. But then I am considered overly fussy about such things ;') Linda
818.5	Give a pig a name, it's still a pig!	UTROP1::BOSMAN_P		`Wed Sep 08 1993 06:59`	13
	Well Linda, If there is a subspecies concerned it does not matter evry much how one calls it, as long as it is recognised as being distict from other subspecies and bred discriminately. There is no risc in being too fussy, there is a big risc in mixing it up. So keep being as fussy as you like, you'r very correct! To avoid confusion about names, which is unavoideble when using local language, I nearly always use the scientific nomenclature. One of my teals p.e. has about half a dozen Dutch names and over twenty(!) English. Peter
818.6	Thanks for the encouragement	VAXUUM::COMPTON		`Wed Sep 08 1993 21:10`	5
	Hi Peter, I appreciate the encouragement. I'll keep being fussy!! Linda
818.7	taxonimy vs mutation	USHS05::VASAK	Sugar Magnolia	`Thu Sep 09 1993 16:50`	13
	Thanks for the explanations, Peter. I think it is tricky for many people to understand why it is ok (and not a hybrid) to breed a lutino cockatiel to a grey 'tiel, or a blue Indian ringneck to a lutino Indian ringneck, but not ok (ie; is a hybrid) to breed a green Indian ringneck to a a green African ringneck, or an Elenora to a Citron Cockatoo, or a Vosmari to a Soloman Island Eclectus. Understanding the difference between colour mutation difference (like the first set of birds) and subspecies (taxinomical) differences (as in the second set) is not necessarily obvious! /Rita
818.8	reproduction?	ODIXIE::HAYS		`Thu Jan 13 1994 23:04`	15
	Well I'm confused now. I have a Harlequin macaw, a cross between a Green Wing and a Blue and Gold and I can tell you that a hybrid does not mature mentally as fast as a pure bred. But I had never given any thought to the reproduction aspect of it. Do you mean to tell me that a hybrid does not reproduce? If not that's fine with me, I just never knew. Anyway my "Harley" is a beautiful bird. He has the most spectacular coloring from both his parents and is quite large. He has the gentle nature of the Blue and Gold and the playful but wilfull antics of a Green Wing.
818.9	what do you get when you cross...	NEWVAX::WHITMAN	gun control = 5% gun + 95% control	`Mon Jul 08 1996 17:05`	24
	This topic sure has been quiet for a long time... We have been told that crossing a male Mollucan Cockatoo with a female Umbrella Cockatoo produces a spectacular offspring (white body with the rich pink crest), but crossing a female Mollucan with a male Umbrella produces an ugly, muddy colored bird. We know of a lady who bartered some handfeeding for what she was told was an Umbrella baby. As the chick has started to get its feathers, it appears as if someone with sooty hands wiped the birds feathers (i.e. the feather colors are splotched with dark grey instead of pure white as is normal.) We're wondering at this point if perhaps that chick is one of the "ugly" (I know they are all so cute...) hybrids... Can anyone confirm that crossing a female Mollucan Cockatoo with a male Umbrella cockatoo produces a "muddy" colored, unattractive baby? Thanks, Al