Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    Well, let's count the ways.  When I began breeding (birds) I made
    an initial investment of close to $7,000 and that did not include
    parrots and expensive stuff!  Actually, I should rephrase this...I
    just went plum nuts collection birds, then they started breeding,
    and then, I had soooo many, I needed a part time job to support
    them.  I figured I should check with the state, get pet shop license,
    retain a good avian veterinarian and learn all I could about diets.
    Breeding can depelte a birds energy and length of life if the birds
    are not fed adequately.
    
    I was gonna make big money!  Buy a building, have a million loyal
    clients....then it was time to sell these babies.  Well, the babies
    had names and personalities, can't sell them.....parents started
    to die mysteriously....can't sell them....This one cost me $185
    at the vet's yesterday, cannot possibly make back enough money on
    this bird...Suffice it to say, breed to pay for your seed and vet
    expenses.  I found that large scale breeding was doing no good for
    the birds, and we were not careful who we sold too.
    
    Love birds..um...do you have any now?  Are you familiar with the
    species?  How about breeding 1 pair of cockatiels, 1 pair of finches
    and maybe a pair of parakeets.  That gives you 3 pairs, 6 birds
    and a potiential of raising 30 birds a year or so.  You don;t want
    to over breed your birds.  
    
    There is a fair market for lovebirds, but better markets for the
    above mentioned ones.  Lovebirds are beautiful and clown around
    a lot, but they don't really make ideal pets...Even hand fed baby
    lovebirds tend to get nasty after a while.  If you really want to
    breed lovebirds, try to get a nice pair, with different genes so
    that you might get a variety of  mutations, not just the peach faced
    variety.  Then, hand feed them and raise them with you.  This means
    taking them away from the parents at about 2 weeks of age and you
    finish the job of parenting.
    
    Most shops sell peach face love birds for $50 as an average, then
    the different mutations vary in price from there...but I know where
    you can get them *cheaper* than that.....
    
    Try this endeavor.  It is great to see the eggs, then the babies,
    and then it's real hard to part with them after!
    
    -j

    Regarding .1, thanks for your experiences.  Your recommendation
    of starting with three pairs of birds was about the extent I had
    thought of the hobby, as I simply wouldn't want to get overwhelmed
    by a hobby.  I was thinking of two pairs...
    
    Can you recommend a good source of information about proper care
    for breeding birds?  I assume from what you said that I shouldn't
    expect to do much better than get back expenses, plus enough for
    an occasional extra nice dinner for two.  You mentioned licenses
    and so on. Would I need one to sell the birds?  How easy is it to
    sell the three species you recommended?  Do you sell to pet stores
    or direct to new owners?
    
    How do you think being a small-time breeded would effect one's
    life style?  What type of committments are implied?  For example,
    can you easily go away on vacation for a week or so without too
    much preparation?
    
    Thanks again
    

    Hi Rich!
    
    Well....
    
    Lets start with species...
    
    1.	I get the feeling you really wanted lovebirds.  However, If
    your are planning to go small time...I'd do cockatiels and border
    canaries...I think most everyone loves these two species best!!!
    
    The canaries are really easy to breed as well as cockatiels.  Canaries
    sing beautifully and cockatiels talk...you get the best of both
    worlds with just these two birds.  However, each bird is differennt
    and there is much to be decided, researched and understood before
    just giving the birds a nest.
    
    2.	I NEVER sell to pet stores!  I spend my weekends going on pet
    shop raids...then turn the store in to the department of agriculture,
    the folks that issue licenses...I sell healthy birds to people that
    truly want a bird, not an impulse or status thing, you understand?
    
    3.	Information....Well, join an avicultural society...there are
    owners and breeders of all species there!  Most of us are willing
    to help someone get started...then there are those that don't want
    your competition...poo on them!  There are 3 wonderful books I refer
    to all the time...Clinical Avian Medicine and Surgery, my avian
    bible, then there is Estrildids of the World, an excellent finch
    book and then Parrots of the World.  The medical text book is available
    thru Saunders Publishing in Pennsylvania, and the other two are
    available through Avian Publications.  (you may pick up the two
    bird books at Boston Pet, or have a local book store order them
    for you.  The bird books are $35 each and the text is $75) <see
    the note on books and publications for more details and justification
    of expense>.
    
    4.	License...where do you live???  Mass does not require a license,
    but NH does.  If you are outside of NH/MASS, contact the Department
    of Agriculture at your State Capitol--they will be able to direct
    you.  If you sell birds to someone with a license, you won't need
    one, just a permit and inspection fromm the state so that they can
    control outbreaks of sickness that could possible stem from your
    birds...this gets very involved...let me know if you want to know
    more on this subject...
    
    5.	Vacation and Lifestyle...Well, Tom (that's my husband) and I
    have not taken a vacation togther in 4 years.  If we did leave,
    I would hire one of my vet's technicians to "sit and care" for me.
    If you have birds on eggs or babies being raised and strangers come
    in, the birds are apt to break the eggs or stop feeding the young.
    If you are hand feeding, that is a comittment of 4-6 feedings a
    day for 6-8 weeks.  If you are single...maybe this is not for you?
    If you travel for work, don't breed during the times you'll be out
    of town.
    
    6.	Care and feeding....I am going to put this in the feeding routines
    note!  It is very involved, and I don't want  to "run off at the
    note" so to speak!
    
    J

    Hi J (What's the j stand for?)
    
    WRT .3
    
    What I'm really looking for is an enjoyable hobby to help
    relieve the DEC stress, something I'll enjoy when it comes
    time to retire, etc.  I said lovebirds because they are so
    captivating and pretty, but I've got nothing against
    cockatiels and canaries or finches or anything else for that
    matter.  I'd love African Grays, but that's far too expensive
    for the birds.  But I'm quite flexible.
    No, I'm not single.  I've got a wonderful wife and 2.5 year
    old son who always has to see the birds and fish in the pet stores,
    but then what child doesn't?
    We're about to renovate our home, and a fair amount of space
    will become usable, and so I'd like to use some of that
    space for a hobby.
    My wife likes birds too, likes cockatiels, although if I were
    totally unrealistic I'd have a flock of Macaws...
    I'll try and look for the books you mentioned.  I didn't really
    expect to get professional information here, just pointers to it.
    But your comments about vacation etc are things you don't learn
    until you get involved, and I don't really want to get involved
    without knowing what I'm getting into.
    
    How much floor space would you think would be needed for a small
    operation (1-2 pairs of birds)?
    
    Assuming the birds are not breeding, is it reasonable to expect
    them to be tolerable of a stranger feeding them?
    What happens if you don't hand-feed?  I've noticed adds offering
    hand-fed birds. Apparently they're much tamer, but suppose you
    don't hand-feed?
    
    I'm going to make an active effort to educate myself before
    purchasing birds for any reason whatsoever.
    
    Thanks again,
    I'll appreciate your continued help.
    
    Rich
    

    Sorry, the J is for Jean, but I have been J for many, many years!
    You sound like someone Rich, that could gleen lots of information
    from the New Hampshire Avicultural Society...Or just through these
    notes and Privately through Feathered Obsessions Aviary!
    
    But, let's get to questions at hand, ok?
    
    1. I kept up to 200 birds in a 9x12 room, much to tight, we moved
    them to a 19x35 room.  Essentially, we are using bed room/playrooms
    in our house.  For ventilation purposes, which is also important,
    we took the doors off, and hung screen doors.  This way the air
    is always changing and I can check the birds at a glance when walking
    by!!!  If your floors are carpeted...take it up and save it.  Trust
    me, use a tile, linolium floor, this endeavor will *ruin* your carpets!
    
    If you have someone come to feed your birds, then introduce them
    to the birds well in advance before you leave.  Have them watch
    and let the birds watch them.  Then eventually, while you are there,
    have that person feed the birds.  I have seen too many ruined clutches
    though to recommend having someone else feed while breeding season
    is active.
    
    A lot of my birds are not hand fed.  It just makes  taming that
    much harder for the next owner of that baby.  However, the babies
    that are hand fed are automatic pets!  They even fetch a better
    price...I have sold cockatiels for $150 that would only go for $60
    or so in pet shops, but, they were hand fed for many weeks and were
    talking when they were sold.
    
    umm...have I mentioned my pet shop raids???  Anyway...I am going
    to get forced off the system now, So, I will be in touch with you
    first thing on Monday!!!  
    
    -J(ean)
    
    8^}

    sounds like jean is bird poor.  IE in the no time or money for much
    else.

    Regarding .6
    I think whether or not you're "bird poor" depends on whether or
    not you think you are.  For myself, I'm quite wary (perhaps
    excessively so) of getting involved in anything that could
    become drudge-work, so I really want to understand what it
    involves.
    
    Rich
    

    As long as I have my family, may faith, my friends and my "baby
    birds" I'll never be poor!  It is *Loads* of work, keeping them,
    but the satisfaction is greater!  But I see I have made a point.
    
    Many many people buy birds cause they look easy to take care of.
     Well, for the most part yes...However, for proper maintenance of
    this little critters, there is much to learn and a comittment to
    be made.
    
    I got another bird this weekend...One that the owners could not
    care for anymore...1 parakeet...
    
    Birds are great pets and wonderful company!  Rich, if you want to
    do this, try it!  Just stay small and cater to the "flock" you decide
    to work with!  And I am most happy to help you get started!
    
    -j
    

    Be forwarned that PET BIRDS (breeding birds etc. ) are like a
    contagious disease.  I started out with just two canaries and now
    I can't stop!  Just this weekend at a bird show we bought two SINGING
    FINCHES and two NORWICH CANARIES to add to my collection now 
    going on 30 birds.  I really just want you and your pocket book
    to be aware of what your getting into.  ONCE YOU START, YOU CAN'T
    STOP! Once those little cuties get you hooked, your hooked for life.
    
    Breeding birds for pleasure or for business is a really rewarding
    experience, but as Jean says, its not something to really leave
    to chance.   
    
    I really hope you enjoy your endeavor.
    
    Karen from Colorado
    
    PS.  There is NO CURE!  (Cooo... Cooo...)

    re.9
    
    AMEN!!!
    
    They are in the house, out of the house, in the shower...Everywhere
    you look, there are more birds...And, they are all each one, individual
    and special and they all have a story!
    
    Thanks Karen!
    
    Jean
    
    

    I've been giving this more thought Rich!  Get the birds AFTER you
    are done building and painting...Paint fumes (lacquor or enamel)
    are fatal and fast!
    
    House hold cleaners are also unsafe.  I met a woman that cleaned
    her cages with Windex -- the ammonia killed her cockatiel.  Vanish
    bathroom bowl cleaner emits a toxic gas -- sent a bird into convulsions
    and he died just hours later.
    
    Sharp objects -- make a pin prick puncture in the birds feet, or
    a blood feather broke -- the bird bled to death..  Because birds
    have 85% hollow bones, there is no bone marrow to remanufacture
    new blood cells.  No blood cells, no new blood, and then oops, no
    bird.
    
    Ventilation is VERY important!  The birds need fresh air and no
    drafts.  We have installed a bathroom fan in the aviary.  This takes
    all stale air, dust and pathogens straight up and out of the aviary.
    And the "bugs" won't be able to stay and grow with the birds.
    
    Never add a new bird to an existing flock right away.  Keep him
    in a separate room with it's own ventilation for a period of 30
    days.  This will insure that the new bird has no illness, no matter
    how good he may look,  and infect your established flock.
    
    Learn the breeding seasons for each species you collect and the
    art of "climatizing" to insure a successful breeding season.
    Lovebirds, budgies, cockatiels and most finches will breed anytime
    of the year.  Larger birds and some exotic finches have a specific
    season and may only yield 2 clutches a year.  Grays, Amazons and
    Macaws only lay an avrage of 2 clutches a year with only one or
    two eggs per clutch...And they do not reach sexual maturity till
    they are about 3 years of age in some cases.
    
    There is a constant threat of egg binding.  Only proper nutrition
    can help in that field.
    
    Some birds nest in hay bales, boxes or wicker nests and prefer a
    specific nesting material to nest with.  Others need live food!
    Most birs are insectivorous and carnivours.  You need a strong stomach
    sometimes!  Know your source of live food too!  It must be sterile,
    not from the groud outside!
    
    Because of disease, some species do not mix with others.  Such as
    Conures.  The Austrailian keets and finches and African species
    up to parrots usually go well.  However, you introduce a South American
    Conure and you expose your birds to Pacheco's disease, and may
    ultimatley loose every other bird you have...
    
    Locate a good avian veterinarian and keep him on  a retainer so
    that when you call, he's ready immediately for you.  And, if you
    should loose a bird to a sudden death ... make it a practice to
    have the body posted to find out why it died!  There may be something
    going on that you are unaware of, and the autopsy could save many
    other lives!
    
    Then there is the issue of allergies...I spend 5 weeks in the hospital
    last winter because of "allergies" and the doctors, pharacist and
    the insurance companies insisted I get rid of my birds....NO WAY!
    We improved ventilation, added an ionizer and clean frequently,
    and I still have all my birds and a "stand by" prescription for
    the days of heavy discomfort to me!
    
    jean

    Gee, Rich, where are you????
    
    Shoot, am I bird poor and your bird scared?
    
    Come back and get interested, you'll have a great time!
    
    8^}
    
    j
    

    Well, I think it's time I asked some questions.  I have a pair
    of cockatiels that I got back in the spring, one of each gender.
    I kinda hoped they'd settle down quick dicide this was a great time
    to start a family so I constructed a nest box.  I attached it to
    the side of the cage so that the little door in the cage was open
    and the hole in the nest box was invitingly (sp?) available.
    Chirper(m) and Snowball(F) were so impressed that they ignored
    it, disregarding chewing around the entrance.  I don't believe they
    (either one) have ever been inside it.  
    
    Seasons pass ...
    
    Comes September, Snowball looks up and says in silent Cockatiel talk,
    Chirper is the big mouth, "Guess what Chirper ..." and the 
    !! Bottom Corner of The CAge !!  receives three lovely little eggs.
    A little time passes and hatching is due, but Mom is not sitting
    anymore.  Ok, I checked and the eggs weren't fertile so I took them
    out.   I figure this is great, come spring the days will get long
    and she will have figured out the nest box is a good idea and 
    everything will be cool.
    
    Wrong.  Snowball appears to be as sharp as a marble.  She is currently
    sitting on 4 new eggs IN THE BOTTOM CORNER OF THE CAGE.  My
    first question ("Finally!" the crowd murrmers ...) is how do I get
    her to stop laying?  I sorta thought they "wouldn't" (and maybe
    Chirper's not)  unless you supplied the magic ingredients,
    proper diet, nest box, enough hours light per day, etc.
    
    Any ideas on how I get her to stop after this set ?  I really 
    don't want her to get sick from the strain.  I always figured
    taking the nest box away would probably be a turn-off, but
    she doesn't even use it.
    
    This is more than long enough for now, if you can give me any
    answers I will gladly trade them for more  questions.
    
    By the way, Chirper's pretty sharp, too.  He goes down on
    the cage floor in the morning when I turn on the light and
    chases her off the eggs.  I believe this is when they are 
    supposed to change "shifts".  But the he sees her go to the
    food dish, looks around, "Duh, what am I doin' missin' breakfast"
    and climbs back up.  She sees him, the Food Monster(me), and
    scurries back down to hide or protect(who knows).
    Chirper looks down,
    
    "Not hungry, huh..."

    Sharp as a marble, I have to use that one, OK?  I love it.  Are
    Chirper an Snowball eating much vitamin E?  Like, Wheat germ oil,
    Nekton-E or lots of wheat bread?
    
    We have seen expenisve birds stand on a perch, look us right in the
    eye, and plop, lay an egg from there! You can see the comment, "Ha,
    collect that $1200 now buddy!" look in their eyes!
    
    Then again, no matter how hard you try, how many supplements your
    give and how many breeding foods you take a way, you are going to
    have a broody hen...she'll lay eggs just for the shear pleasure
    of it!
    
    Try putting the nest box on the floor next time around.  My cockatiels
    moved into the quail box...on the floor and ate the one hanging...You
    really cannot second guess them!
    
    Another step is to separate the birds.  Lengthen their nite hours,
    etc.  There are vets and text books that tell you you have to stop
    the bird, some may even suggest hysterectomies...yup -- lay one
    more egg, and I'll take your ovary!  That's pretty severe though.
    Keep lots of calcium supplements for her.  Bone meal, calcium gluconate
    are good.  The major danger in overlaying is getting egg bound,
    and calcium deficiencies and stress...and....
    
    Good luck, let us know how you make out!
    
    (On the lighter side, give the a marriage license...they should
    slow up in no time!!!   :')  -- I don't believe I said that!)
    
    Jean

    
    
    	Marriage License !!  I love it.  Now I'll have to pick up
    	a Monk to do the ceremony !
    
    	Anyway, I'm giving them vitamins/supplements added to the 
    	water, and no special foods that tend to induce breeding
    	according to what I've read.  They are also "light poor"
    	if anything.  They are in a room on the shade side of the
    	house and it gets no traffic.
    
    	Maybe a marriage AND a tv ?
    
    	

    This is getting better all the time!  I am a JP, but the Monk line
    is better!  I'll have to take my Quincy (Monk Parrakeet) to my next
    wedding!!!
    
    You mention Light Poor.  Well, that right there can signify a calcium
    deficiency....birds actually, all God's creatures get vitamin D
    from the Sun!  However, sunlight filtered thru glass also has the
    Vitamin D filtered out. So now you want to be sure that you are
    providing calcium, but not too much...Try a Vita-Lite.  Most good
    pet shops carry them.  This lamp simulates the sun and all it's
    properties and then you dont run the risk of over dosing the birds
    on Vit D -- which can cause liver problems.  Also, too much Vit
    D will deplete manganese...Talk about Dominos!
    
    But like we said before, some birds just will not turn off!
    
    Get the TV and newspaper and golf balls and a lawn mower!  ;')
    
    j

    I know this is an old note,  but I'm about to become a grandmother!
    Help!  My pair of cockatiels, which I adopted a few months ago,
    is nesting.  I have a nesting box and they're using it, both taking
    turns to sit on the eggs. I didn't realize what was happening until
    she laid her first egg on the bottom of the cage.  I then set up
    the nesting box and everything has been fine since.  I want to hand
    feed the babies (if everything is ok) and I have no idea where to
    begin.  I've had birds for years but have never had a nesting pair.
    Can anyone out there give me a few basic do's and don'ts about the
    care of nesting cockatiels and new babies.  I have gone back to read
    all the notes I could find in this file on the subject but I'm trying
    to find out all I can before they hatch.  I want to give them all
    the best care possible.  The mom and dad are the best pets.  They
    really care about each other and are very gentle with one another.
    They were hand fed and are very tame.  
    
      I also have a conure,  which I just bought a few days ago, who
    is a orangey yellow, has a green tail and a flaming orange/red
    head.  He's crazy!  I love him already.  He's also hand raised.
    Then there are the two parakeets that I recently adopted from
    someone in this file.  I'm beginning to really get into this
    bird raising stuff. It's addictive!  I didn't want to come to
    work this morning there was so much going on.
    
    Thanks in advance for any little bits of info you can come up
    with.  I've raised 3 kids,  but don't have any idea how to care
    for baby birds.
    
    Jeannie