Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    
    Ok, I'll take a tab at ansering my own question.
    
    Hmmm.  It depends :-)
    
    For some parrots, I prefer really well-socialized handfed babies. 
    Senegals, Meyers, and other sort of "high strung, nervous" parrots just
    don't seem to make good pets unless handraised.  My spectacled amazon
    is a really nippy little jerk even if he is a handfed baby, so I
    shudder to think of what sort of little terrorist he might have become
    if he had been parent-raised.
    
    For some reason I have never been completely able to understand, tamed,
    parent-raised African greys seem to be more outgoing overall than
    handfed ones I have met.  The handfed ones seem to bond very closely to
    one or two people and don't seem to tolerate anyone else. 
    Parent-raised greys are a pain in the butt to tame, and take tremendous
    patience - but once tamed, have been some of the most gregarious and
    wonderful birds I've met, real "party animals".
    
    I have a parent-raised umbrella cockatoo and a handfed citron cockatoo. 
    The handfed bird is a demanding, noisy, dependant, spoiled, neurotic
    little monster (but sweet - I DO love the little bugger).  The
    parent-raised umbrella seems much more independant, more able to
    entertain herself, far less noisy and demanding, more poised and
    confident.  On the other hand, the parent-raised bird has LIMITS; there
    are things that she WILL NOT tolerate, things that are clearly an
    assault to her dignity, and she will let you know where her boundries
    are in no uncertain terms :-)  The handfed cocktoo doesn't seem to be
    at all worried about his dignity (or total lack thereof) and is willing
    to be hung upside down by his feet, tossed around on his back, will
    wear ridiculous little hats, and other such things that his
    parent-raised buddy would NEVER permit.  Overall, I find the
    parent-raised bird to be an easier and happier pet, and since cockatoos
    tame so readily, I'd get another parent-raised bird.
    
    Budgies and cockatiels seem to be pretty much naturally friendly (well
    except for the occasional Biting Budgie Hen From Hell :-) and seem to
    do well enough if handled young that I don't believe handfeeding is
    critical to producing a nice bird.
    
    Finches and canaries are intensely difficult to handfeed, but get
    super-tame in a way that is pretty abnormal for these little guys.  I
    met a bold, crazy, handfed white java rice bird that I am in love with
    :-)  Hard work, but worth it!
    
    I have read that green cheek conures are actually tamer if
    parent-raised and then handled.  I read that handfed greencheeks are so
    confident and bold that they may form vicious biting little gangs! 
    Maybe Linda C. can enlighten us here - has this been your experience?
    
    I think that having birds parent-raised eliminates some of the problems
    associated with handfed birds - adolescent rebellion and difficult
    socialization - but may cause problems, in general, with more shy
    species.  I think that many species do pretty well (if the parents are
    tame and not overly protective) with parent-raising and early, frequent
    handling.  YMMV.
    
    
    						/Rita
    

    
    Ok here goes...
    
    first let me say that I am not a breeder (of any animal) and my track
    record as far as pet birds is not all that great.  However I consider
    everything as a learning experience and feel that there is a reason why
    things happen as they do.  I have taken what I have learned and offer
    my knowledge to others to help make their lives and the lives of their
    pets the best it can be.
    
    Now, I never really thought about the differences until I had the
    chance to study both parent raised and hand fed side by side.  After
    having dealt with an import yellow nape as my first big bird I agreed
    that hand fed was the only way.  Then I ended up rescuing some
    cockatiels.  These birds were young, parent raised birds with no human
    contact.  They were fully flighted and had free access to the previous
    owner's house.   When I got them they were pretty wild but once they
    were separated from each other in individual cages, and had some time
    to adjust i began to work with them.  They were all nice birds and
    tamed easily.  The birds were all available for adoption and one by one
    they went to their new homes except for two.  At the time I also had a
    hand fed tiel.  Sydney, my hand fed was very demanding, even though she
    was never spoiled, (kept on a schedule as to when free time was etc)
    she had toys, an outside view, other birds but she was soo imprinted on
    people and my husband in particular that all she did was call for him. 
    On the other hand, and there wasn't much difference in age between
    Sydney and the rescue birds, the rescue birds played with their toys,
    and amused themselves in their cages but were very happy to come out
    and spend time with you.  They also know how to act with other birds. 
    Sydney did not.  In short, they knew they were birds and I think that
    is very important.  I've had other hand fed birds and one, my moustache
    parakeet was returned to the breeder and put in a breeding situation.
    
    I guess the biggest thing is that each species needs to understand what
    it is.  Hand fed birds are caught in the middle of imprinting on humans
    and trying to behave as humans want but genetically they are still
    birds.
    
    I have seen many behavior broblems in dogs and some cats when they are
    either weaned too early, or are a litter of one.  Aggression, lack of 
    social "graces" and litter box problems are probably the most frequent.
    To me it stand to reason that birds have problems too.  And I know
    we've all read/heard about the pluckers and the screamers.  Many
    problems caused by owners but even when we try our best and follow
    every rule in the book we still have some problems.  
    
    As for wanting a really tame, friendly bird, I think if birds are
    raised by the parents till they fledge, removed and put in separate
    cages, give individual attention by a caring, responsible person than
    why can't we have a super nice bird.   A lot of a birds behavior and
    characteristics are inherited so that must be taken into consideration
    when setting birds up for breeding.  So much more goes into breeding
    that just putting two animals together.  
    
    Well enough rambling, bottom line is everyone has a preference.  I
    guess I just want a bird that knows it's a bird.  A bird that has a
    health respect for me as a human.  In turn I will give that bird 
    everything in my power to provide it with the best possible life.
    
    oh yeah , why would I only consider a hand fed budgie, cause even when
    my little budgie attacks me (which she now does, appearing confused
    because she wants attention but then doesn't know what to do and so far
    has wanted nothing to do with any other budgie) it doesn't hurt! ;')
    
    whew!  
    
    MaryAnne

    rep. to .1 - My experience with handfed maroon-bellied conures (similar
    to the greencheeks) was once only, and I had to pull the babies from
    2 to 6 hours after hatching because the parents tried to do them in.
    So.....they were not afraid of anything or anyone.  The little one,
    last to hatch, turned out to be the true terror of the group.  I have
    some incubator hatched birds of other species and I don't have a
    problem with them (pionus and cockatoos).  So I think that it is the
    species...also checked with other breeders and hand-feeders after
    going through the ego-crash of staying up for days keeping these
    chicks alive, only to have them turn out so awful.  I assumed I did
    something wrong or they were pulled to young.  No on both counts (I
    am sparing you a lot of details of this research-trust me or send
    mail for more info).  Peach-fronted conures are apparently often
    nippy and cantankerous as well.
    
    IMNSHO, the individual bird is what counts, not whether it was
    parent-raised or hand-fed or incubator hatched or whatever.  I could
    fill pages here with examples of sweet and not-so-sweet birds from
    each of these categories, and my experience is certainly *not* all
    encompassing, so I am assuming others could add their anecdotes here
    as well.  Single chicks, if parent-raised or hand-fed, have been
    more socialized, in my experience, than chicks kept with clutch-
    or brooder-mates.  
    
    What I have noticed is what seems to be a connection between
    the sweetness, calmness, steadiness (not necessarily the *tameness*)
    of the parent birds, except for chicks that are incubator hatched or
    taken from the nest the first couple of days of life (they latter have
    not 'experienced' their bird parents in the same way a chick does that
    is with the parents until the chick opens its eyes).
    
    So, let's hear from some others out there!
    
    Linda

    Another perspective on the birds knowing they are birds line. 
    
    Do you think it makes any difference in a hand fed baby if it gets
    to stay with its siblings a little while after it's been weaned?
    Do you think that helps them to learn bird behavior while also being
    a sweet pet?  
    
    I've put a deposit on a peach fronted conure who will be weaned in
    a couple of weeks.  He (or she) has only one sibling but I wonder
    if he (or she) would benefit from some extra time with that sibling.
    
    gwen
    

    to .4
    
    No, don't have it stay with the clutch-mate.  Bring it home and have
    it rely on you as soon as possible as its friend and companion.
    Especially a peach-fronted conure.  If they are worked with and
    trained, in all the best senses of that word, to share space and
    time with you, not dominate it, you'll be better off.  Some of the
    other smaller species of conures share this need to have roles
    and the dominance factor established very young.  To relate to dogs,
    you need to be the 'alpha bird' to your hand-fed peach-front!
    
    Others will probably disagree with me....But what fun would the
    notesfile be without a little friendly sharing of opinions? ;')
    
    Linda

    RE .6
    
    What do you feel are the pros and cons about having feathered
    mates/friends for ones parrot as opposed to having only human friends? 
    I am considering a mate for my parrot but I am "very much" afraid of
    destroying his wonderful pet qualities.
    
    Presently, my parrot shares his room with 3 cockatiels and has NO LOVE
    for them in any way.  I'm sure he would hurt them badly if given the
    chance.  With this in mind, I wonder if he would accept any other
    parrot in the house?
    
    Jeanne
    

    I have a mitrid conure and a cherry head conure and the two of them
    seemed to have an infatuation with meeting each other so I carefully
    let them closer and closer and they got along great...it worked out
    great because I was able to have them out in the tv room with me
    together on the T-stand...however after 1 or 2 times together they
    became very hostile towards me and if I tried to separate them they
    both made serious attacks on me!!!! As a team they became very
    hostile..all they wanted was to be together...I lost all human contact
    with my Mitrid for a good two months because he kept biting me and kept 
    screaming for the other one...it took that whole two months for tham
    both to get each other out of their minds....I have them each in a
    separate room now and even if I put one on the T-stand and one with me
    on the couch they will try to fall to the floor and meet there...they
    did that twice to me and when they got together on the floor they
    attacked my feet and legs and although it may sound funny it was
    actually frightening and had they got a hold of me they would've hurt
    me pretty bad....it took me 30 minutes to somehow separate them and put
    them away from each other...now they are almost never in the same
    room............
                        just be careful and aware that you may lose you
    bird to the other bird.................mary

    re: .8 
    
            just one more thing.....my Mitrid pretty much stopped talking
    too and it really was a bummer to see him change so much...
    
    
                mary

    I think you'l lose the bird to its new friend, as described above by
    Mary.  I have had similar experiences.  If you get the bird a mate and
    they produce offspring, you could save one of the chicks for your new
    companion bird, but the whole cycle can start again with that bird
    (do I, do I not, get it a companion of its own species??).
    
    Companion (pet) birds whose owners can spend enough time with the bird, 
    give it enough cage space and in-cage activities, as well as quality 
    'out-time' may wish to comment here on keeping a single bird happy and 
    *not* getting a feathered friend?
    
    I saw a note here recently from P_BOSMAN advocating a feathered
    friend for a pet parrot....perhaps he will add his thoughts as well?
    
    Linda C.

    
    My budgies seem to do a great job of entertaining my parrot during the
    time he must spend in his cage.  Perhaps a flight of small birds would
    be enough to keep a big bird company without losing it to a mate.
    
    MaryAnne

    
    Interesting idea, MaryAnne - my cockatoos enjoy watching tthe flight of
    zebra finches, and my grey had a parrotlet that she really enjoyed.
    
    
    					/Rita
    

    I've been thinking, for over a year now, about getting my
    Sampson,O.W.Amazon, a keet or something to keep him company while
    I'm at work. Samps is an import,parent raised, and is a great talker
    and a very friendly bird. He's very attatched to me and doesn't seem
    to mind the recent move-in of my girlfriend. I'm reluctant to get
    a small bird for him because I think he might get jelous? He likes
    to watch the wild birds feed outside at my feeder, something that
    took him over a year to get used to. He still don't like crows,herins,
    hawks,or any other LARGE birds. My main question is, has anyone ever
    got an additional bird and the origional one attack it? Of course
    they would never both be out of thier cages at the same time. I'm
    also wondering if it would be fair to the small bird,because I know
    I would not give this bird the attention I give Sampson. Limitted
    time you know. Any suggestions,comments are welcome. Thanks Mike.

    
    Mike, 
    
      If you don't feel that you would have time for one-on-one with
    another bird how about a pair or a few?  A pair of budgies can amuse
    themselves and a bigger bird as well.  I would imagine, like in Rita's
    case finches would also be a good choice.  Small birds are relatively
    easy keepers, though they can get a little messy with the seeds, a
    quick sweep of the broom solves this.   Just be prepared for your
    Amazon to start making very loud budgie/finch noises! ;')
    
    MaryAnne

    re .13
    
    I have a pair of finches and a canary that my parrot doesn't seem to
    mind.  But, he hates my three cockatiels.  He likes nothing that
    interferes with his getting full attention.  I don't know if all
    parrots suffer from this jealousy or if mine is just spoiled rotten.
    
    I must be very careful to keep everyone well clipped because I'm sure
    the parrot would hurt the cockatiels if he could ever get to them.
    
    I'm considering a mate for my parrot but where he is so jealous, I
    don't know if he would accept a mate any more than he accepts the tiels.
    
    I've heard that birds like to watch fish swimming in tanks.  That might
    be good, non-threatening entertainment for your bird.
    
    Jeanne
    
    

    Thanks Maryanne for idea about 2 little birds. That sounds exactly what
    I need. And thanks Jeanne for idea about the fish tank, but I tried 
    that for 2 years and he had no intrest in my fish tank, he really 
    disliked it. It might of reminded him of the terrible time he went
    through when his previous owner sold him to a pet store. Imagine
    living in a home for years and then being sold in a pet store. He 
    was so upset that he plucked his chest and legs almost BARE! I'm so
    glad that I saved him and thats maybe why he loves me so much. By 
    the way he is NOT a feather plucker..
    
                                             Thanks again
                                                          Mike

    Just my opinion......but I still don't agree at all......
    I have had nothing but trouble when I pair my birds up....they lose all
    respect for me as their owner and I lose all control over them....I
    have my "baby" that I will never pair with any bird because I like his
    friendly personality and I WILL NOT lose that to another bird.....plus 
    i have one bird that I got as a hardship case because noone wanted him 
    because he was vicious.....I have made outstanding progress with him as
    he will give me kisses and let me pat him and he will come up onto me
    now too......HOWEVER, If I let him with the other bird even for 5
    minutes, he turns so vicious it is scary.....so I thought ok..they want
    to be together I will let them....but I can hardly walk into the room
    with out them trying to lunge at me .....I would rather have 3 tame
    birds who are separated then have 3 vicous birds with mates!!!!!!!
    Buyer Beware.....and make sure that you want a pair....if you want a
    bird to play with and cuddle and such DO NOT pair them up...........
    
    
                                     mary
    

    Peter,
           I think there is a difference in topics here. I am soley talking
    about handfed/handraised birds and none of these birds are in danger of 
    being extinct.....and my birds are not paired to mate...they are paired
    to keep each other and now only for an hour or so.....there is a big 
    difference between acting defensively to protect its self as opposed to
    just plain aggressive or vicious!!!!! I have NEVER given ANY of my
    birds any reason not to trust me or for any reason to fear that I would 
    ever harm them....in fact thay are treated like gold.....besides we are 
    only talking about conures here not endangered bald eagles or
    anything.. ................anyways to each his own.....JMO..mary

    I think both Peter and Mary have valid points.  I've decided not to
    pair up my bird for several reasons.  He is hand raised and very much
    imprinted on humans.  He really hates my other birds.  His breed, White
    Capped Pionus is not presently in danger and someone is home with him
    all day to give him lots of attention.
    
    Although it's very important to breed even the common species, there is
    still room for pet "only" birds.  It would be nice if all bird lovers
    could have a (or a few) "pets" and a few breeder birds.  Unfortunately,
    due to the expense of owning birds, this arrangement is not always
    possible.
    
    I feel that if bird lovers keep the common species as pets and leave
    the more endangered species to the breeders we will be in good shape.
    
    As with any issue, compromise and good management is key to success. 
    As a group, I feel that bird lovers are concerned for the endangered
    birds of the world.  With responsible people like Mary who keep common
    breeds as pets and with dedicated breeders like Peter to care for the
    endangered ones, I think we are going in the right direction.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Peter,
         Thank you for sharing that with us. I am not here to argue back
    and forth about the issue nor will I. I was just sharing some very 
    negative experiences that I have had instead of misleading people by
    only stating the good points...and generally I am talking about
    extremely common pet birds....my conures are Cherry Head, Jenday, and
    Mitred..none of which are in danger....and if I had one of the last
    of a breed OF COURSE I would see that they reproduce......I am very 
    comfortable that reguardless of pairing up or not, my birds will live
    their lives EXTREMELY content and they won't miss what they have never
    had......and I know for a fact that my Jenday does not like other birds
    and shows no interest except he would rather sit with me on the couch
    than with the other birds....and the bald eagle remark by me was just
    an example, not a fact to be corrected! I was just trying to make a
    point...well, don't take it so hard that not everyone wants to breed!!
                                               J.M.O. ........Mary
    
    

    Mary,
    
    If I in any way offended you, that was completely unintentional, nor do
    I take it hard that some people have no wish to breed their animals;
    that's an entirely personal decision which I should and do respect.
    Also my statement about the Bald Eagles was not a "correction". I
    merely used your example to get my point across and appearantly failed.
    It is alway VERY difficult to separate ethical views from individual
    circumstances. So, my apoligies for any misunderstandings.
    
    Unlike the purists I consider the motives for personal
    interest/satisfaction of the keeper very valid reasons for keeping
    non-domesticated animals.
    In fact there are quite a few strong arguments supporting captive
    breeding by private persons: the perigrine falcon, the Hawaiian goose,
    several raptors etc. 
    Both these views make me an adamant supporter for the possibillities
    for keeping even threatened species by private persons. I strongly feel
    that Zoo's, because of their commercial limitations, can defacto NOT
    be the best and only guardians of our natural heritage. 
    Keeping non-domesticated animals however does put quite an extra
    responsibillity on the private persons shoulder as catering for these
    animals' wellbeing often involves requirements incompatibel with
    pet-keeping. So yep, there sure are definite disadvantages connected to
    breeding or even keeping these animals under ideal conditions!
    Allthough I am NUTS about parrots, I recently decided I could not cater
    for my parrots realy properly. Quite a long time ago we had concluded
    that they were best of as couples in spacey aviaries. We and the 
    neighbours however had to put up with just too much noise. Noise 
    reduction measures all meant a compromise on the wellbeing of the birds. 
    So....I passed them on to an acqaintance who does have the perfect 
    conditions. This was an extremely hard decision and I can quite 
    understand the motives of anyone that will compromise. This goes for 
    the motives for not breeding and for pet keeping as well. 
    However what does get to me is that quite a few people
    are not admitting to their personal interests and "selling" their
    decision as in the interest of the animal, which it rarely is. Obviously 
    exceptions do occur and individuals are sometimes completely unsuiteble 
    for breeding and some even are best of as pets.
    Also, someone keeping a rare animal as a pet may very well have the
    best of intentions and may equally well do an excellent good job caring 
    for it. So please do not in that way take my remarks as personal 
    critisism.
    P.e. I know darn well that my owls would perhaps be better of flying free 
    and the only real motive for me keeping them is the satisfaction of my
    personal fascination with them. To justify my decision to myself I keep 
    only captive bred specimen and in a large aviary in a pairs under near 
    ideal breeding conditions. To justify my decision to the "layman" I use 
    the captive-breeding-of-rare-raptor argument.
    Much the same goes for most of our other animals like the Hawaiian
    geese. In fact, probaly the only exception are the tortoises for which
    our real motive indeed is their possible extinction in the wild.
    
    So keep caring for your birds and enjoy them the way you choose, as long
    as you've thought about it...!
                           
    Peter

    Well, Peter....
              Thank you for the respect.....maybe someday in the future I
    will be able to pair and mate them but I am only in an apt. and there 
    just isn't enough room, plus they( all being Conures) are a bit loud at
    times and in a small apt. 3 loud birds is enough for now...What else 
    besides the owls do you have?? ......................Mary
    

    Rita,
    
    Did you get your question answered sufficently ?  
    
    Doug