Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    Don't know how that got CTL Yd; I wasn't finished!
    
    Anyway, the emergency room vet seemed to think that the birds
    definitely did battle.  After three and a half years of living
    together, I just cannot get over it.  Larrybird is a pretty laid back
    guy.  
    
    The other bird came to us when we got married 3.5 years ago.  The pet
    store sold us what they thought was a female, complete with a pink
    band.  However, over time "Ladybird" developed the coloring of a male. 
    Hence, we think we have two boys and Ladybird sings like a male, too.
    
    Larry is staying at Tufts tonight.  He will be receiving antibiotics
    and then in the morning the vet (avian specialist) will anesthetize him
    and check out the wound that is punctured through.  She'll determine if
    he needs stitches or not.  Sigh.  
    
    Besides the possibile $$$ (good grief), I'm worried about the future. 
    If there was indeed a battle (how will I ever know), there's no way
    I'll ever put the two of them together again.  If this was a battle,
    why now-- after 3.5 years?  It seems to me as though it was a battle,
    after the doctor explained that the wound in his mouth under his beak
    was a through puncture wound.  Lastly, if this was a battle, I would
    seriously consider sending Ladybird packing.  Larrybird is my first
    bird, and he is very gentle.  
    
    I can't understand this at all.  I've NEVER seen them fight-- just peck
    and hiss if one got too close.  
    
    Any one else have any similar experiences?  Comments?  Suggestions?
    BTW:  I'm in meetings the next 2.5 days.  I'll be in and out of here
    checking, so please keeps your comments coming!  I need to hear from
    you, please.  I'll also fill you in when I can after I hear back from
    Tufts tomorrow.
    
    Thanks and regards,
    marcia

    Our little Finches had a battle awhile back.  The male (Max) beat
    Maggie unmercifully!!!!
    
    They are brother and sister - so they have little tiffs
    all the time!  Maggie is bossy!  Max is a laid back, happy little
    bird.  This one day, he had had just enough of her abuse!
    
    Anyway, we took Mag out of the cage and put her in the spare cage.
    She couldn't fly and was tramatized!  We partially covered the cage
    and put Max outside on the patio.
    
    To make a long story short, in a few days Maggie's strength came
    back, and she started peeping and "talking" to us again.  We kept
    them separated for a few weeks.  Max's attitude changed, and Maggie
    was depressed.  Even though they fight, they can't live without
    each other.
    
    We put them in a larger cage.  One that gave them some room to
    fly out of each others way when a battle began!  Maybe a larger
    cage would be one idea for a solution for your birds. 
    
    I won't say this is an absolute solution, but it might help.
    
    Maybe they should each have their own cage, toys, food and water
    for awhile. You have had Larrybird for a long time.  Don't give
    him awsy!!
    
    I have also found now that if I give them a lot of playthings they
    don't fight as much.  They are to busy playing!
    
    I wish Larrybird a quick recovery.  He'll probably be timid when
    you get him home, but show him a lot of attention and hopefully
    he will be okay. 
    
    Regards,
    
      Susan
    
    Remember - it ain't easy bein' a Mother bird!!
                                     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
          
    
     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Thanks for the suggestion.  But their cage can't get much bigger-- I've
    got them in a huge parrot cage.  I had to-- when I brought Ladybird
    home she was a "B" and Larry hated her.  The only solution was a new,
    bigger cage.  I don't know what caused this, and I don't think she's a
    she.  I think that's the problem and I may be looking for a new home
    for HER, not Larry.
    
    Thanks,
    marcia

Marcia,

I know all you birders are very careful with toys and such, but is it possible
that maybe something broke leaving a sharp edge that Larrybird impaled himself 
on?  Maybe on the swing or something?  That would explain the puncture, 
the broken feathers, and the toys being knocked down.

I find it strange that Ladybird would do THAT much damage all of a sudden.
Sounds like there was a real struggle.  I'd give the cage a good going
over just for good measure.

Hope Larrybird recovers well,

Roseanne

    The doctor looked at Larry.  They were going to do surgery and I
    honestly was real concerned about the cost ($ which I don't have)... 
    The doctor took a good look; there's a hole under his tongue.  Larry is
    going to stay 'til Friday, on antibiotics and they'll flush out that
    area twice daily.  Upon closer look, they decided that the wound,
    though it is a big hole, isn't "that complicated."  "The mouth area
    usually heals fast."
    
    So, we'll see.  I'll hear back from the doctor with an update tomorrow.
    
    Thanks!
    marcia

    Roseann,
    
    I agree about what you said.  The emergency room doctor last night
    thought it was a fight.  This doctor is an avian specialist.  She
    didn't feel it was a fight.  She thought it would be very unusual after
    3.5 years.  You're right.  It definitely could have been a struggle on
    a swing or a toy or something.  
    
    My poor little bird!

    Roseanne,
    
    You got me thinking.  I'm embarassed to tell you what I feel like
    today.  
    
    I replaced the usual slide-in-the-side food & water dishes of the
    parrot cage that I keep my cockatiels in with the type that hook over
    the side.  The reason was the position of the dishes that come with the
    cage-- the birds were always pooping in them!  The new dishes are bigger
    and hold the right amount of water and food for the two birds.
    
    Well, one of my little devils was ALWAYS pulling the dish off the edge
    and knocking it over.  It was like a game.  So lately I took to tying
    the two edges of the dish to the cage.  I used twist ties.  Yesterday,
    after reading your mail message, I kept thinking it over and over and
    it hit me that that could have been the cause.  If he (Larry - and know
    I really believe Larry is the one who enjoyed knocking the food dishes
    over) - anyway, if Larry tried to untwist the tie, and chewed away the
    end, then he hurt himself on that.  I can't be sure that's it, but now
    I feel pretty sure that it is.
    
    Please don't flame at me.  I feel awful and guilty enough for what's
    happened to my bird.  I can't believe I was so stupid to let this
    happen.  I can't imagine the pain that the poor bird was in; he must
    have flailed about when this happened-- knocking over the swing, his
    toy, the broken feathers, etc.
    
    I can't be sure that this is what happened, but I'm pretty sure.  I've
    removed all twist ties.  What do you think of putting a rock in the
    bottom of the food dish?  Is there any way that they could hurt their
    beaks by pecking at the rock?
    
    Don't think I'm awful.  I just wasn't using my head.  What a painful
    lesson to learn.  I can't be sure that was the cause of injury, but
    like you said-- why would the birds fight after 3.5 years.  The vet
    didn't think that it was an injury that another bird could have
    inflicted on the other, either.  
    
    For now,
    marcia  

Marcia,

Of course I wouldn't flame at you!

I thought it would ease your mind to think that your tiels hadn't fought,
boy, did that backfire :-).  Of course you mean well.  It sounds like you
give your birds exceptionally good care.  Write it (whatever did happen)
off as an unlucky mishap.  I know how you feel.  When I was a teenager, I
lost my pet rabbit when he escaped from our yard and drowned in the 
neighbors pool.  It must have been a horrible death and the thought of
it haunted me for a long time.  I guess it's like kids, you can't 
protect them from everything.    

Don't take it so hard.  I'm sure you'll have a happy, healthy bird again 
in no time.

Roseanne

    Don't feel badly Marcia.  I'm sure we all have stories to tell of the
    silly things we have done that resulted in damage of one sort or
    another.  We're only human!
    
    I have a suggestion that might help a bit with the dish dumping.  My
    two teils do the same thing so what I did was to buy small clay
    saucers; the type used under clay pots.  I have one for seed, one for
    veggies and pellets.  I locate them on the bottom of the cage near the
    front.  These are the only ones that they cannot tip or dump.  Since
    clay is porous, I clean them with SOS and bleach daily.  As for the
    water, I do use the dish that came with the cage.  I have to put a
    slide clip on the little cage door so that this doesn't get dumped.  
    
    Also, I have spent hours redesigning their cage so that they cannot
    soil their food/water from standing on any of their perches.  I think
    this is the real trick.
    
    Hope Larrybird is feeling better.
    
    Jeanne
    
    P.S.  My feeder doors are on the front of the cage.  If yours is
    similar I will gladly share my design
    

    Thanks, both of you.  This is the large square type parrot cage.  The
    doors for the dishes are on the left side, facing the door that opens
    up (the main let bird in & out door).  There's a big swing that hooks
    to the top bar.  On the outside top of the cage I bought and installed
    one of those perches that allows the birds to sit up top and look out
    over the world.
    
    They've never had an interest in tipping the water dish.  Maybe it's
    too heavy.  Actually, since we took the twist ties off, and it's just
    Ladybird in the cage, the dish isn't getting dumped-- so I think that
    it's just Larry's game.  I asked the avian vet about the rock idea and
    she agreed that it would be fine if it was smooth, and if I boiled it
    first.
    
    When the doctor looked at Larry again, she discovered that his cornea
    was scratched, too.  They're treating that.  He seems to be doing okay,
    but she said that he doesn't want to eat on his own.  She asked me to
    go tonight-- which I'll do -- armed with a honeystick.  Maybe he'll eat
    for a familiar face/voice, and his favorite treat.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia
                                                  

    RE:  .10 - that's wrong.
    
    If I stand facing the door of the cage which swings down to open, the
    food dishes that come with the cage would be inserted on the right hand
    side, about halfway up the right wall of the cage.
    
    Now, I keep the water dish on the left side and the food dish in the
    front right under the main door.  It works out well and they stay
    pretty clean.

    Larry's home again.  I'm keepinghe other cockatiel cage, just for a few
    days or so-- til he's better.  I put both cages side by side.  He
    doesn't look great.  They found a scratch on his cornea, so he keeps
    the left eye shut.  We're treating that, too.
    
    The doctor told me yesterday that when we picked him up tonight we'd
    get instructions on how to administer the medication.  We got three
    types of medicine-- one oral and two topical.  We got nothing but an
    instruction sheet.
    
    Anyway, Larry did NOT like being picked up and wrapped up (in a towel)
    to be medicated.  He gets so traumatized.  In fact, I watched him for
    about 25 minutes after because he just shook.  Maybe little by little
    he'll get used to this, while we have to handle him so much.  But I can
    tell you that he HATES being handled.  Poor little boy.
    
    The doctor wants to see him Monday again to check on his progress.  I
    intend to tell her how displeased I am that I wasn't given more
    thorough instructions.  I was handed a typed up sheet and asked if I
    had any questions.  
    
    Anyway, I really need to watch his diet.  He hasn't been eating very
    much, apparently.  I put some lettuce in the cage and it was the first
    time I saw him eat.  Maybe soft veggies and fruit is the key.  
    
    Well, I hope tomorrow is a better day.  I hope that he's feeling better
    tomorrow.  BTW:  we were trying to put betadine solution on the wound
    under his beak and he got so mad!  He just kept biting at the Q-Tip,
    which then of course, he must have ingested some of the stuff...  This
    is not very easy playing nurse to a cockatiel who is not hand tamed,
    and has no intention of becoming hand tamed in the near future!
    
    Rgds, 
    marcia
    

    Marcia,
    
    It sounds as though Larrybird had a fight with Ladybird.  I have a pair
    of cockatiels that were placed together for an number of years as male
    and female (male was normal, female was pied) when I got them, although
    the so called female never laid eggs and they never really bonded. 
    However they didn't quarrel.  I gave the birds to a neighbor boy (they
    were both handfed babies and loved attention) and he had them for about
    a month or so and found them viciously fighting one afternoon.  And 
    the so called female bit the male in his mouth just under his tongue
    which caused heavy bleeding.  They finally got it under control with
    cold water and he is fine now.  I had my doubts about the female being
    a female, and now I am certain it is a male.  Since then my neighbor
    has separated the two which both seem happier, and he has purchased
    a female for the normal male and they get along famously.  He plans
    to try a female with the other one and see how it reacts.
    
    Best of luck with your little guy, but I am willing to bet that the
    two did have a spat.  I wouldn't blame myself for using the twisties
    I have used them many times with no ill effects, although they could
    pose a danger if affixed in a loose manner.  I would be more concerned
    about the bird's toenails getting hooked in them and twisting/breaking
    their toes/legs.  Just be very careful as to where and how you use
    them.  Since your bird also had a scratched eye, I believe it was
    a bird spat.
    
    Best of luck to you and Larrybird,  I know how devasting it can be!
    Keep us updated on his progress. 
    
    Regards,
    Denise

    I dunno.  The vet said that she had never seen another bird inflict
    those kinds of wounds.  She is an avian specialist...  It's hard to
    tell, really.
    
    Anyway, the doctor called Saturday and I told her what was going on. 
    Larrybird, after his second medication treatment by us, was absolutely
    traumatized.  He sat in his cage.  He shook.  He didn't eat.  He did
    not chirp, whistle, or make a peep.  I didn't like that at all.  The
    doctor was most concerned about the fact that he was not eating.  I
    told her I had the cages side by side and the little guys were watching
    each other-- trying to get to each other, and not understanding why
    they couldn't.
    
    When I told her that I let them fly around and walk about their cage,
    she suggested that I try that... let the birds near each other and
    maybe Larrybird would calm down.  That seemed to help.
    
    Yesterday morning I woke up and uncovered the birds, who had spent the
    night together back in their cage.  The first thing Larry did was hop
    down to his food dish, although he didn't eat much.  I suspect it may
    still be painful, or maybe just uncomfortable for him to eat or
    swallow.  The wound though, has healed very well.
    
    Larry is still not verbal very much... and I will admit that I have not
    been medicating him since yesterday.  I cannot see traumatizing him
    like that again, and the doctor had suggested cutting back on how often
    we did it anyway-- although she didn't imply to stop altogether. 
    Anyway, we have an appointment to see her tonight and I'll tell her
    all.  
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    Larrybird and I went to see his doctor on Monday evening.  He has lost
    weight.  A smear indicated that the ulcer on the cornea is healing, but
    it's still there.  The tear under his beak goes right through, but it
    is healing well.  The feathers on his wing, once he molts, should grow
    back out okay.
    
    The thing that I've noticed the most is that he is alot less verbal
    with me.  Early in the morning when I first go in to see the "kids" he
    flirts and makes a little noise, but then, that's it.  The other bird
    doesn't help, anyway.  Ladybird responds with an exuberance that would
    make anyone proud-- but Larry doesn't get a chirp in edgewise.  Once
    she starts, he stops.
    
    Larry is also getting a bit easier to hold to medicate.  (Especially
    since the doctor showed me the right way-- which they were supposed to
    do when I picked him up Friday night.)  He doesn't even complain any
    more like he used to (used to scream).
                                            
    He is eating, but not with the vigor that I used to see.  That could
    all be because of the wound.  The doctor thinks that he may have scar
    tissue under there, or it may never close up.
    
    All in all, this was not alot of fun.  I hope to never have to go
    through anything like this again.  I have put in all new perches,
    removed all twist ties, removed almost all toys except for the big
    parrot/wood toy with bell (appears to be very safe).  I still have not
    put the swing back up.
    
    I came home last night and guess what?  One side of the dish was pulled
    off the edge of the cage.  Larry's at it again!  Maybe I should feed
    them on the floor of the cage and get rid of the dishes altogether! 
    :^)  
    
    Thanks for all  your notes.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    BTW:  Is your cockatiel "fat?"  Never thought mine was, either.  But
    the doctor thought that he was a fat little bird when I brought him in.  
    
    When we went back for his checkup, she put him in a little basket and
    weighed him.  She said when he came in he weighed about 110 grams. 
    Last Monday he weighed 93 grams.  Somewhere around 97 is the norm, I
    believe.