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Conference 7.286::pet_birds

Title:Captive Breeding for Conservation--and FUN!
Notice:INTROS 6.X / FOR SALE 13.X / Buying a Bird 900.*
Moderator:VIDEO::PULSIFER
Created:Mon Oct 10 1988
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:942
Total number of notes:6016

309.0. "Gray problems" by FRSBEE::LOMME () Wed Jan 24 1990 13:05

    				Gray Problems
    
    Hi
    
    Last week I took my African Gray to the Vets for a wing cliping
    and nails cut.
    
    after my bird was done with the Vet and the Doctor called me into
    the room to take the bird I noticed blood on the birds leg and on
    his head I asked the doctor what happened and where did the blood
    come from and he told me he cut one of the nails to short and it
    started to bleed.  My bird looked like HELL and the wing he cut
    was done very badly, the wing is cut all crooked. When I was in
    the waiting room I could hear my bird screaming his famous Gray
    growl.
    
    Since the Vet visit the bird has completly changed. He is sleeping
    all the time and he hardly ever makes a noise. Before the visit
    he was loud and always playing around. It has been 6 days since
    the visit and I am starting to get worried. he is also hardly eating.
    
    what can I do?????????
    
    One thing for sure I will not bring him to that vet again!!!
    
    Is it normal for the vet to take the bird in a room without the
    owner????
    
    Is it normal for the vet to only cut one wing?????
    
    helppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
    
    any advice????
    
    thanks
    Gary
             
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309.1GIAENG::PULSIFERDoug Pulsifer 235-3332, BPO1Wed Jan 24 1990 15:0522
    Sorry to hear about you bad experience.
    
    As far as the vet taking the bird into another room this should never
    happen unless it was surgery where there could be a chance of you
    contaminating the patient. When I take my human children to the  
    Doctor I stay with them and would insist on the same with my non-human
    children(birds,cats,dogs).                                          
                                                                        
    Your evaluation of this vet is correct,  "DUMP HIM" !  Myself I     
    would make this known to everyone I know verbally, but not in print.
                             
    As far as getting him back to normal, you may need to start all
    over with him and be patient.  Next time you want to clip him maybe
    you can get someone that does house calls. There is a lady that
    works here in Marlboro, that does it reasonably.  Also some vets
    let you bring gram stains into them to do away with the stress of
    bringing in the bird.
    
    Good luck, and keep us updated.
    
    Doug                         
    
309.2FRSBEE::LOMMEWed Jan 24 1990 15:3329
    HI
    
    Now I wish I would have stayed with my bird (Buddy) when he was
    getting his wings cut.
    
    My bird is ok when I play with him, he will say hello and the normal
    things when I talk to him. But all the chatter and noise he makes
    when he is by himself has stoped. when I am not talking or playing
    with him, he will sleep. All the playful ness is gone. he just sleeps
    all day.
    
    I have been hand feeding him and he seems to love it and eats everthing
    I give him.. the problem is that he is eating 1/2 as much  as he
    use to on his own.
    
    Some people have told me that I should bring him to another Vet
    to make sure he is ok. But I do not want to scare him again so soon.
    I hope all he needs is rest, some loving care and a little time.
    
    I bought Buddy a little over 2 years ago and since I am single and
    have lived alone, Buddy has become a one person bird. he enjoys
    my brother and Girlfriends attention,(feeding,making sounds at each
    other) but being handled by someone besides me is a no no right
    now, Now that his wings are cut he will go from my finger to my
    girlfriends finger with a careful step. What I am trying to say
    is that I think the handling by the Vet scared the Hell out of
    him.
                       
    Gary
309.3radio ?GIAENG::PULSIFERDoug Pulsifer 235-3332, BPO1Wed Jan 24 1990 17:4617
    
    In the wild birds are always on the lookout for danger, but when
    there are other birds around the are more at ease as they all look
    out for  each other.  Buddy may feel that you are another bird and
    be more secure when you are around, hence him behaving normal when
    you are there.
    
    You might be able to make him more secure in your absense by leaving
    the radio or T.V. going,as the noise could make him feel he is not
    alone.  As far as him eating you could increase his hand feeding
    or just keep him near to you with his food dish when you eat.  He
    will see you( the other bird) eating, and feel it is safe for him
    to eat also.                                                   
                                                                   
    Hope some of this could help,
    Doug
                                                             
309.4SUGGESTIONS FOR THE FUTURESVCRUS::BUCCIERIWed Jan 24 1990 17:5449
    This is truly an unfortunate situation ....... I do think that Buddy
    will adjust in time.  I don't know which vet you had gone to, but
    I only bring mine to a vet that is an avian vet.  Bird handling
    is truly an Art.  The vet I go to will examine my birds in an examining
    room while I am present.  They do however perform many of the
    procedures in another room.  I have never been denied access and
    they always have had them out of the cage and in a towel before
    they leave the room.  There are many owners that can't handle the
    sight of their birds being worked on.  Much the same as some parents
    when their children are worked on.  
    
    I would like to offer some suggestions for future situations.  Have
    somebody teach you how to clip your birds wings.  It is a simple
    procedure and should only have to be done once or twice a year.
    Have your birds beak and nails trimmmed at about the same frequency
    if needed.  The longer you wait the further into the beak and nails
    grows the vein that supplies the needed blood.  This usually causes
    bleeding when you do have these procedures done.  You may spend
    a little more overall but the mental anquish won't be as bad. 
    
    As for wing clipping, there are many schools of thought here.  Some
    will clip only one wing.  This is supposed to prevent the bird from
    being able to fly straight and level thus enabling you to control
    their movements.  Others will clip both wings, but only selected
    flight feathers.  The outside flight feathers are usually left for
    looks.  There are others that butcher the wings and cut almost all
    of the feathers.  Each bird is different in my opinion.  I feel
    that what you want to achieve is to trim each wing just enough to
    impede any sustained flight and not so much that the bird can't
    fluuter softly to the ground.  You don't want to have you feathered
    friend drop like a rock.  They could really get hurt if they should
    fall off a perch or your shoulder.  Some birds are obviously heavier
    than others and will require less of a clipping.
    
    Lastly, a birds personality can and often does change after a clipping.
    I clip the wings of my birds only as long as it takes me to tame
    them.  Once I have achieved my objective I let the wings grow back.
    I have seen birds go from aggressive biters to one that can be handled
    just by clipping their wings.  They depend on you now for their
    mobility.  Their attitude can change as their feathers grow back
    if they are not worked with however.  
    
    I do hope this helps ....... I also hope that we don't go to the
    same vet.  From the sound of it we don't.  Good luck and let me
    know if I can help you in any way.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim Buccieri
309.5Me TooVAXUUM::COMPTONLinda DTN 232-2441 ACO/E47Wed Jan 24 1990 21:4374
    Gary,
    
    I had a similar experience to yours.  The vet took one of our  conures
    out of the room in a towel, came back with the bird looking very
    stressed (I also heard screeches from the other room but this conure
    was in the habit of making a lot of noise for very little cause, so I
    wasn't too worried until I saw the bird).  I put the little guy on my
    shoulder, as usual, as the vet was making the final notes on the bird's
    record.  I noticed blood on my jacket and took the bird off to inspect
    him.  He was bleeding, definitely, from one of the toes.  I also
    checked the wings, which weren't bleeding, but were cut in a very
    ragged and sloppy way.  The vet took the bird away again, telling me he
    would cauterize the wound.  More screeches.  The bird came back even
    more stressed.  I paid good money for this abuse because I believed the
    vet when he said that there is almost always some bleeding.  
    
    The bird was very subdued for many days, and walked very gingerly on
    that foot.  I went to the vet in the first place to see how it was done
    properly (dumn assumption that vets can do this better than a lay
    person who uses patience and gentleness)!  This vet claims to know
    about birds, by the way.  I go to a different vet now.  
    
    I have seen two bird breeders clip wings and toenails since then and
    yes, there was bleeding, but they were ready for it and were calm  and
    quick in stopping the bleeding.  The wings were even and cut in 
    proportion to the bird's body type and size.  And the clipping was for
    free. 
    
    Three related comments: 
    
    1) A friend suggested corn starch or flour rather than Quick Stop or
    any of the over-the-counter anti-bleeding agents.  I tried cornstarch
    and the reaction of the bird was very mild in comparison to the
    commercial products, which are similar to a stiptic pencil (sp?) that
    is used, for instance, by people who cut themselves shaving.  Also, no
    ingestion of chemicals this way....  
    
    2) In the 'for whatever it's worth' department, I didn't like seeing the 
    birds spiral out of control to the ground and knocking into things even
    when they tried to fly out of the way when I only clipped one wing, so
    I started clipping both wings.  First I clipped the inner flight
    feathers only.  Then I had a cockatiel snap a blood feather when it got
    caught in the cage bars, so I now clip the first six or seven long
    outer feathers, including the primaries that many keep for looks only,
    because I am more worried about birds catching their wings in the cage
    bars than the looks while I am training the birds.   Maybe it was just
    because of the thrashing that cockatiels do, but I don't want to take
    the chance. Depending on how much I want to restrict the flying
    ability, I cut the feathers anywhere from slightly longer than to
    roughly even with the inner flight feathers (the ones closest to the
    body).  
    
    After the training period, it is a real thrill to see a fully flighted
    bird lift off and fly from cage to perch to me and so on. But I do keep
    the birds in a 'bird room' when they are free-flying (that has been 
    'bird-proofed), and limit their chances for flying around other areas 
    of the house, and only with supervision.  If you do not have a separate 
    free-fly area for the birds, my guess is you might be better off
    trimming the wings just a little for the bird's safety.  
    
    3) If you are going to show the bird, be aware that many judges will
    take points off for clipped birds, so yet another thing to keep in mind. 
    (I have asked about this...the reply from three different judges was
    that it is difficult to fairly assess the bird without the full 
    plumage.  Since poor condition can affect the wing feathers, they don't
    know if the wings were trimmed to eliminate feathers in poor condition
    or for safety.  In breeds where crossed wings will lose points, birds
    with clipped wings could also be an attempt to make the fault less
    obvious, so, again, points can be lost anyway.  Bird Talk responded
    to a letter on this sometime in the past year or so, which said 
    basically what the judges said to me when I asked last fall at the
    local shows.
    
    Linda
309.6Wing ClippingUSHS05::WALZFri Jan 26 1990 17:0827
    Some of the theory around clipping only one wing is this:  
    
    It is beneficial to clip one wing of a very strong flyer such as
    a macaw.  This way, there is some reduction of the bird's control
    of flight and the one wing need not be clipped very short.  The
    advantage is the bird still has some lift and will not fall hard
    and break bones in his breast areas.  Again, this method best
    works with strong flyers.  KoKo, my blue and gold macaw, is clipped
    this way.  If we were to clip both wings, they would have to both
    be clipped shorter than this one wing is now to achieve the same
    effect.
    
    African greys fly like rocks anyway, and have less of an advantage 
    with this method.  My yellow naped Amazon, Rico, has both wings
    clipped.
    
    I, personally, do not groom my own birds.  I do not want to be the
    BAD GUY, nor do I want to be associated with this person.  I have
    my birds groomed at a Houston pet store where the personnel really
    know birds.  I leave the room while they are being groomed, but 
    know that they are in expert care.  I come in when they are finished
    to the "rescue" and to comfort my pets.  
    
    Greys are so high strung.  I am sorry your pet got so traumatized.
    I, too, would dump the vet.
    
    Pat
309.7Lots Of Love And Attention......SWEETP::EAGERTue Feb 06 1990 22:1026
    
    	I think you are right in saying he was scared by that vet. I never
    leave any of my greys alone with a stranger. In fact my Vet has agreed
    to make house calls for preventive checkups twice a year at my house.
    
    	Your bird probably just needs time to get over what happened. Give
    him all the attention you can and he will probaly come around. Make 
    sure you watch very carefully for any signs of sickness, but don't 
    bring him to another vet very soon.
    
    	I make a point to share all my food with my Grey, Jonsey, to 
    make him feel as if I was his mate or best friend. I am carefull
    not to give him things like chocolate, and limit his soda intake
    to a few sips once in a while. He was totally wild and an abused
    bird when I got him. When I bring him into the bird room where my
    other greys are, he doesn't pay any  attention to them at all and
    would rather be on my shoulder than on his perch.
    
    	If you are planning on keeping his wings cut, you might think
    about having someone show you how to do it yourself. Your bird 
    will take it alot better if you do the work rather then some nasty
    old stranger. Good Luck!
    
    
    					   Living On The Grey Coast,
    						     Mark
309.8Thanks for the advice.FRSBEE::LOMMEFri Feb 09 1990 10:1820
    HI
    
    I am glad to say that my Gray is almost back to normal. For the
    first week after the Vet visit he slept most of the time and did
    not make a noise. It seemed like all the trust he had in strangers
    was gone. He would growl again at everybody but me. I started to
    see some improvement the second week. Buddy was still not eating
    that much so I started to hand feed him one seed at a time. he loves
    the attention and he ate everything I gave him. My girlfriend also
    gave him some love and care and a lot of patience to gain his trust
    in people. He is now back to talking and making sounds. He is not
    sleeping all the time anymore. And he is again eating all his fruits,
    vegetables and seeds.
    
    Next time his wings are ready to be cut I am going to the Bird Vet
    in Littleton and I will learn to cut them myself.
    
    Thank you for all you help and advice.
    
    Gary & Buddy