Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    Hi Juliette,
    
    Your bird shouldn't be reaching his sexual maturity until he is
    a few years older. I thought it was between 3 and 5 years.  It 
    sounds like he could use a trip to the vet to have his upper and 
    lower beak filed down a bit. Even if my Grey or Cockatoo wanted 
    to bite hard, they couldn't do much damage because they have been 
    dremeled down slightly by my vet.  This doesn't hurt them and it 
    doesn't take away their ability to crunch nutes etc.. If you find 
    someone that knows how to do it correctly.  There is a very special 
    way to do this.  I would never try to do it to my birds myself.
    The vet basically takes the point off the top beak and the sharpness
    of the corners of the lower beak.  You can't even tell by looking
    at them that anythings been done but it makes a big difference
    on how hard they can bit.  
    
    I haven't experienced this behavior with my birds that you are seeing.
    I've had my grey since he was just weaned and taught him early on
    about nipping.  The only thing he does now it try to grab my glasses
    from behind my ear and occasionally gets my ear in there.  He doesn't
    bit hard but if he wanted to he could!  And I don't think my ear
    would appreciate that, so I grab his face with my whole hand and
    give his head a little shake and say NO NO NO!  Your bird may not
    be receptive to this so maybe the IN THE CAGE AND GET COVERED TRICK
    will work better for you.  My bird is not afraid of my hands and
    knows that I won't hurt him but knows that I'm made.  
    
    Hope some of this helps.
    
    Karen

    
    	I agree that having the bird's beak rounded off would help.
    The best way however, is to convince the bird that you are not a
    threat to it. This will take a lot of time especially is the bird
    is already somewhat attached to your SO.
    
    	A bird bites mostly due to fear not malice. When I first saw
    my Grey, He growled, tried to run away and when that wasn't possible
    he tried to bite me and although Greys don't normally bite that
    hard it hurt!. In the process of checking him out I discovered that
    he had been left in an unfinished bathroom for a year and 1/2 with
    no attention given to me other then the owners Kids. The kids 
    tormented the bird constantly by sneaking up and doing the Boo
    routine. I actually saw one of the owners kids do this and almost
    strangled him. The owner himself had used the bird's perch to push
    him back into his cage so I couldn't use that method to get him
    in or out of this cage or to my arm.
    
    	I had decided that he wasn't ever going to be trainable let
    alone tame and decide to leave but the owner was desperate and
    said I could take him home for a few weeks to see if I would like
    him. I had him for a month and was totally in love with him by the
    third week. I have had him for two months now and he follows me
    around like a puppy and his demands for attention are sometimes
    too much for me. He still will grab me oocasionaly if I surprise
    him and he growls when I pick him up, but he stopped breaking skin
    within the first month.
    
    	What you should do and what I reccommend as the best method
    is to spend as much time as possible with the bird and also 
    without your SO around. If the bird is attracted to him it will
    be harder for you to make friends if he is around for training 
    periods. Wait until the bird is used to you and doesn't bite 
    before you work with him and you SO being around. My favorite 
    trick is to take my bird to someplace where he doesn't have a
    lot of room to run with and is private , like the bathroom. I
    take a book with me and get the bird on my knee while I read.
    This gets the bird used to being near you. After he settles
    down, (this is a judgement call, but you should notice it),
    then you can try getting him to sit on your hand. 
    
    	It will take time and you will get bit. You have to try and
    convince the bird that the bite does not bother you and never 
    punish the bird for biting. Talking to your bird is one of the
    best ways to give them attention. You might even bring treats that
    he likes such as grapes etc , but be careful not to get him spoiled
    too much. If you can't get him out of his cage, start out by bringing
    the cage in with you and setting it next to you when you read and
    even when you watch TV or listen to music. If you can though use
    his perch to move him from the cage to your knee. Slowly work him
    into this and then work torwards getting him or you arm and then
    shoulder.
    
    	I takes a lot of patience but few birds and put up with all
    this kindness and not respond. You just have to work slowly and
    not give up. I have used the slight Head shaking routine also
    but wait until the bird is more used to you before trying it as
    it may confuse the bird at the early stages.
    
    	If for some reason you still can't get the bird to the first
    stage then take him to a bird shop, (a real bird shop not one of
    chain stores) and pay them to hand tame the bird, (meaning to get
    him to where he will sit on your hand), and then take over yourself
    at that point. It may cost a few bucks but might lessen the amount
    of pain invovled in the first stages.
    
    	Whatever you try let us know how you're doing. Your experiences
    can help some other person who may be having similar problems.
    
    						Good Luck
    						   Mark

    RE: .2
    
    I think my bird is attached to my SO because the bites aren't 
    nearly as bad as mine.  But Piedy is now beginning to bite my SO
    harder.  So, I don't know if there's really an attachment there
    or not.
    
    At this point, everytime he bites me he breaks skin.  It's getting
    embarrasing explaining to people why my hands are such a mess.
    Most of the time it's not that bad....he's cutting my fingers with the 
    side edges of his beak.  But this weekend he's bitten me 3 times(twice 
    in the same spot) with the point of his beak...that has caused some 
    serious looking scabs.  :-(
    
    The strange thing about all this is the inconsistency of Piedy's
    behaviour.  It's not that I can't get him to perch...in fact I can
    for a treat.  I even taught him to wave for a treat.  He will not 
    perch on me unless I have a treat and then I still don't know if he's 
    going to bite me or not.  I think he's schizo(sp)  he really does 
    seem to have a split personality...maybe he's a manic-depressive?? :-}
    
    I really don't think he's biting out of fear.  I always approach him
    slowly; I never try to startle or scare him, but yet he still bites.
    I really think he's biting out of agression though I don't know why.
    
    I spend all my free time with him...sometimes having him perched
    on my hand, most times I'm sitting next to him while he's on his
    T-stand.  Though I'm not necessarily alone with him.
    Sometimes he's real calm and can be talked to other times 
    he's a terror and very fiesty....later in the evenings I get gun-shy
    at trying to have him perch on my hand because that's when he's
    the fiestiest.  Over the weekend he got down from his playgym....was
    walking around and came over and bit me on the inside leg...OUCH!!
    All without provocation...just my being there I guess  8^{
    I've decided not to let him on the playgym for a while because he
    becomes impossible with that much freedom to romp.  I now use a
    small T-stand which keeps him fairly mellow.
    
    I'm going to the vet next Monday so I'll ask about getting his 
    beak rounded.  
    
    Juliette

    Three points:

(1) Is Piedy female ?  Some of the behaviour mentioned sounds like
    mating-related to me. We have male (Basil) and female (Lucy) Greys,
    and the female will always search out my wife and bite her on the toe
    (and the hand if she puts it anywhere near Lucy). With me, I can
    handle her any way I want (the bird I mean). I'm not sure how they do
    it (any ideas ?), but I do know that Basil and Lucy can distinguish
    male/female humans without difficulty. When the mating season is on
    (they are not a 'pair' - they don't breed), they seem to become even
    more touchy against the opposite sexed human, especially Lucy. 
    
(2) When either of our birds attempts to bite (usually a panic reaction
    to noise, etc), I lightly tap it on the head - distraction only. If
    it's biting whilst on the hand, I tap it and take the bird to its cage
    and dump it on a perch. The distraction factor seems to work well,
    at least for Greys. I say 'at least' because I do know that Greys
    generally just bite and release, whilst other species bite and hold.

(3) The previous replies to this topic are well informed - some valuable 
    info in this topic. 
    
    Jim Burke

    
    (RE: -1   I don't know if Piedy's male or female.  )
    
    Another strange behavior he does...he leans on his perch so that his 
    tummy is touching the perch (he's almost parallel to the floor),
    and then he slightly pulls his wings away from his body, 
    and he mutters amazonian.
    
    This and his mutterings while he walks back and forth on his perch 
    has led me to believe he was becoming sexually mature.  
    I, too agree with you Karen, about sexual maturity being about 3-5yrs.
    of age.  I'm not sure if he's 2yrs old or not.  Maybe his schizo
    behavior has to do with sexual maturity???
    
    Update:  Last night he was an angel with me.  He was very willing to 
    perch, and his bites were just gnawings.  He broke skin once though...
    but it wasn't his fault....he started to put his foot on my chest and
    I was wearing a sweater.  I didn't want him to get caught and I reached
    up a little too quickly to get him and he bit me.
    
    My SO on the other hand got the treatment I got over the weekend.
    Piedy was biting my SO hard last night.
    
    Is he getting confused about where his loyalties should be??
    I would really like for him to bond to both of us, if we can help it.
    Any suggestions on how we can get him to accept us equally, or almost
    equally??
    
    Thanks,
    Juliette

    Re Piedy:

          From the behaviour you describe, together with my experiences
    with Lucy (the female Grey), I'm willing to bet money that you have
    a female.

    Jim Burke

    
    	I know what you mean about ugly looking hands. My Conure, suzy,
    did that to me for 20 months before He calmed down.
    
    	If I were you I would ask my Vet what he or she thinks and if
    that doesn't help much see if you can find somone who tames birds
    and have them check out the bird. Usually someone who tames birds
    on a regular basis will be able to see things the average person
    can't. If you are located in the Springs, I know someone you could
    contact. This lady and her husband worked with my two Nandays, Bandit
    and Lady and was able to get them hand trained quicker then I could
    and with less wounds.
    
    	Once you can get the bird settled down with one of you then
    that person works with the bird to help him get used to the other.
    However, you have to at least make it to first base first. The
    first thing I would do is to find out whether the bird is biting
    due to fear, breeding or whatever. From that point you can decide
    how to better handle the bird. A professional Bird tamer's opinion
    would be my first choice.
    
    	Be carefull if you decide to wear gloves while working with
    your bird. Some birds are deathly afraid of gloves due to the way
    they were treated in the quarantine stations by the handlers. My
    Grey won't have anything to do with me if I so much as pick up a
    glove , never mind put one on.
    
    						Good Luck!
    						   Mark

    
    	That was 2 months not 20 months......I don't want to scare you.
    
    
    
    							Mark

    Personally, I would give the bird another few months and a beak
    trim.  You have only had him/her for a week or two(?) now and it
    takes birds a while to adjust.  I think you should make every effort
    to attempt to hand tame/discipline your bird prior to going to a
    trainer, and definately don't take him to a trainer after just a
    few weeks of having him.  This is going to me more confusing for
    your bird.  Just give him/her ample time to adjust and calm down.
    Birds will do strange things trying to adjust to new situations,
    especially older birds.  By getting the trim, you wont be intimidated
    by his bites and therefor have the edge on disciplining him in a
    slow and dedicated manner.  
    
    Karen
    

    
    	If you have had him only a few weeks, then you should definitly
    wait before going to a trainer. Let him get used to you for a while
    first. The trainer should the last thing you try, if all else fails.
    I also would not have a triner completely train my bird. Just get
    the bird used to climbing on you hand would be fine. You can take
    over from there.
    
    							Good Luck!
    							   Mark

    I had a wild caught grey for a while  (9 months?) and after 1 day it
    would sit on my hand or arm.  However, as soon as she got used to the
    surroundings, she started the biting routine.  I would let her know that
    was unacceptable behaviour.  This seems to work with my hand-fed as
    well, she sometimes gets a little out of control (as it were) and
    decides to bite without provocation.  She is pretty good now.
    
    The grey also exhibited the preference for opposite sex as has been
    described in previous replies.  I too would give it some more time.
    
    Ed

    Could somebody recommend a hand trainer in the S-NH, C-MA area?
    H&G could definitely use afew lessons.
    
    	-Nancy

    another update:
    Piedy was good 2 days this week.  Obnoxious as ever last night...
    he bit me on the wrist--bad.  I think I flunked hand-inspection
    this morning ;-)  My hands are just now turning different shades
    of purple!!
    
    Aren't birds suppose to be vulnerable when low to the ground?
    When Piedy's on the floor or walking on the bed....STAY AWAY from 
    him!!!  He literally comes running towards me with eyes pinned
    and ready to lunge....and I go running in the other direction!!!
    He walks slowly towards my SO, but my SO doesn't trust him anymore
    so he backs away.
    
    How do show him that you're the boss _not_ him??
    I've been tapping him on the beak with my fingernail and putting him
    back in his cage.  But he feels no guilt, no remorse for what he's 
    done...he just figures...well, as long as I'm in here I'll have
    a bite to eat, and then he does his strut back and forth on the
    perch mumbling amazonian.  Which is nothing different from what 
    he does when he's out of his cage.  
    Is hea learning anything from this type of punishment?
    
    Juliette
    

    re: -1
    
    IMO, this bird has you hoodwinked.  It *knows* you are scared, and is
    taking advantage of the situation big time.  I had a conure that I took
    care of for several months for a friend that would do the biting
    routine.  I pretended it didn't hurt, and eventually, it quit biting,
    not getting the results it wanted.  My grey and I went round and round
    too, but she quit biting also.  You can't be scared of the bird, they
    seem to sense that.  (Dogs do too!).  Now, our little Hahn's, we can
    manhandle since its so small.  Bigger birds take a little more work. 
    
    Also, you will get to know when the bird is going to bite, and move
    your hand quick.  Don't tempt him/her with your fingers, offer the arm,
    there is less to grab on to.  Later, when arm trained, work on hands.
    
    This is all purely IMO, so take it for what it is worth.
    
    I *have* had success with a few birds that had their owners scared
    though.
    
    Ed
    

    Re: .14
    
    I'm only scared of him when he comes running after me with eyes pinned,
    and tail fanned.  Otherwise, I think I'm pretty bold with him.  If he
    bites me I generally try to get him on my hand again....(if I'm still 
    in a good mood) so that he'll know I'm the boss.  Otherwise, he goes
    back in the cage. I've been grinning and bearing most of this in hopes
    that he'll finally realize I'm the boss.
    
    I'd rather not have lumpy arms.  I generally have him perch on top
    of my index and forefingers with my thumb slightly over the feet, 
    if I wish to put them there (like in the Steve Martin tape).  
    Sometimes he likes to sit at the base of my thumb, which is where 
    he was when he bit me on the wrist last night.  
    
    Still determined, and getting more so with all the suggestions,
    
    Juliette   .......I'll break this bird yet!.......
    

    how about putting some of that bitter apple on the exposed area.
    max bit for a little while but after I had put some hand lotion
    on one time he quit.

    Re: .16
    
    That's a good idea!  I never thought of that.
    Last night was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I left
    work with such determination too.  The little brat bit me so
    hard....he practically took the tip of my finger off!!  I just
    got back from seeing the nurse; she put steri-strips (a paper stitch)
    on the cut to keep it closed so that it'll heal properly, and 
    then gave me a tetnus shot.  What a day it's been!  8^{
    
    I've been so nice to Piedy, but I must be doing something wrong....
    either that or he doesn't like me.  I don't think I'll be able to
    handle him for a few days now....I don't want him to open up
    my cut again.
    
    When I'm ready to handle him again I will definitely give the bitter
    apple a try......I've got nothing to lose....except the rest of
    my finger  ;-)
    
    Thanks for the suggestion,
    
    Juliette

    
    	I don't know if it will help you, but for a while I was
    	getting very intimidated by my Nape's sudden and unreasonable
    	biting, and due to other things I spent some weeks practically
    	ignoring him.  When I felt guilty enough and had some more
    	time to spend with him, I found him to be much better behaved.
    
    	Some things I THINK help.
    
    	Sit near his cage, close enough so he notices you but far 
    	enough so there isn't much feather rustling.  If he jumps
    	every time you move, he's still not sure about you.  Give him a 
    	few days of this without letting him out, just let him get
    	used to you being close.  Later, let him run around on the
    	cage without picking him up or trying to touch him.
    
    	When you start taking him out again, if he nips, put him back
    	right away and cover the cage !  I think Murdock was getting
    	tougher when I let him do the victory dance!  With the cage
    	covered he would peek under the cover and really look sad.
    
    	Mainly, give him more time, I tried to be stuborn and not
    	give in to this tough guy, but with time it will work out.
    	Nowadays, Murdock knaws (sp?) chewss and nibbles on my
    	hands with never a bite unless he is in his rough-house 
    	mood before I let him out.
    
    	By the way, watch the mood he is is when you want to start.
    	I've gotten nasty bites for wipping open the door and 
    	sticking my hand in when he was half asleep, and also when
    	he was screaming and had his eyes pinned.  He's taught me 
    	to slow down.
    
    	On the floor, try holding one hand over his head to get his
    	attention while you offer the other as an "escape from the
    	attacker over there".  The bad part about this is that Murdock
    	learned there's a good hand and a BAD hand.  He still won't
    	sit on my left hand, but he will play without killing with it
    	now.   
    
    	Don't give up,  I can imagine how you feel, but don't get 
    	bit so much, either.  Do some things from outside the
    	cage while you heal.
    
    
    					Roger

    I agree with .-1, there are bad and good times to play with the bird.
    When she's hungry, I leave her in, when she's tired, I leave her in,
    etc.  I have gotten bit when I violated those rules!
    
    Ed
    

    Well, according to Dr. McMillan, Piedy, is _very_ healthy.
    
    He's also older than we thought....which I had already suspected.
    She (the Dr.) believes that Piedy is showing signs of sexual
    maturity according to our description of his behaviour.  This
    is likely to be the reason for most of his nasty biting.  Though
    I still think he likes my SO more.
    
    She also thinks that I may have one of the few napes that may just
    be plain brats.  She suggested that if I continue to have problems
    to call Risa Teitler, a parrot trainer, author of _Taming_and_Training_
    Your_Amazon_Parrot, and I guess a specialist in behavioural(sp?)
    problems.
    
    We brought him to the vet's in a cardboard box, and when we got there
    he made the funniest noises....noises he won't do at home.....a woman
    in the waiting room laughed, and Piedy laughed along with her from
    inside his dark box.  He also made nice cooing noises.
    After we brought him home from the vet he behaved just like the 
    first day we brought him home....gentle.  Am I suppose to take him 
    on dark rides now when he gets obnoxious??  ;-}
    
    I haven't handled him much since the last bite....I'm trying to heal 
    before I start the next batch of bites....I admit I am a bit
    beak-shy at this point.  8^O  I haven't yet tried gloves...mainly
    because he's been through a quarantine station, but I'm thinking 
    of trying those Isotoner gloves.....they're tight-fitting, and
    beige.....and Piedy really doesn't seem to get phased by much, but
    who knows....this might be just the thing to set him off, or
    just the thing to save my hands!  :-)
    
    -juliette

    Well it's been almost 6 years since the last entry in this topic....


     We have 1/2 dozen Congo's and 4 amazons. All the greys are reasonably
well behaved EXCEPT...

    Willy doesn't like to step onto your hand, but he'll steps onto your wrist
OK. Within the last month Willy has climbed onto the back of my hand without
difficulty (no hesitation, no aggression) when I go to move him from the 'tree'
to his cage. On 4 occasions though as I approached the cage he has latched onto
the base of my thumb and started shaking his head, basically slashing my thumb
to ribbons. Most of the time I can deal with it, unceremoniously depositing him
into the cage and running to fight with the Johnson & Johnson BAND-AIDs (the
guy who invented that packaging was a Sadist) before I bleed all over the rug. 

    My thumb is now very tender. It's gotten to the point that I just leave 
Willy in the cage, putting the other birds on Willy's tree. My wife does not
seem to have the problem. I was ready to wring his little neck the other night.

    I must continue to handle the bird, but I've got to learn how to prevent 
(or avoid) the brutal bites he's inflicting. He's peeling back my skin much
like he does a peanut shell. Gloves are out as he goes bonkers at the sight. 
The other grey in his cage (another male) is as nice as can be. This bird is a
challenge. I refuse to be whipped. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't so
unpredicatble (5 nights he's fine, then he'll nail me.) 

    Ideas?

Al

    

    Does he bite you in the same place?  If so, try wrapping a cloth tape
    around the spot, and placing some bitters on the tape and the
    surrounding skin.
    
    Isn't it strange how they know where you are the most tender...
    
    Jim Morton

    If you drop your and quickly when he goes to bite or if he has
    a grip on you he will let go and straighten up.  
    
    At least this will stop him from biting you at the time.  
    
    Mark
    

    
    Al,
    
    First, greys can be WAY territorial about "their stuff" and "their
    space".  I'm guessing from your note that he only bites this way when
    you try to return him from his tree to his cage?
    
    I'd try taking him DAILY for 15 minutes or so to another room,
    placing him on a T-stand or portable perch, and teaching him "UP" and
    "DOWN".  Reward him with his favorite food-thing (peanuts, sunflower
    seeds, etc.) when he behaves well.
    
    Then, try using his food-thing to distract him as you are putting him
    back in his cage.  Be sure and use the same UP and DOWN commands you've
    taught him.  If you can convince him to go for the peanut instead
    of your thumb, everyone wins.
    
    
                 				/Rita