Conference noted::sf

    I've read the first three. I thought the first was passable Edgar
    Rice Burroughs imitation, the second just barely the same (too
    many extreme coincidences to be believable), and the third
    surprisingly good sf. I wasn't entranced enough to continue on
    with the series, however, so I stopped there. Friends whose
    judgements I trust tell me that after another couple of books,
    the series went rapidly downhill, once the "slave" aspect of the
    books came to dominate them.
    
    --- jerry

    re:.1
    
      What your friend told you is basically true, but you have yet
    to read the best ones, infact the next few are really good. I 
    personaly have read all 27 books, and once I got into the character
    I was willing to put up with his running off into tangents about
    slaves. Don't give up yet!

    Well I read books 1 through 9, and the best ones were the first
    three.  I just couldn't get into the women slave aspect.  The first
    three books didn't hover about this matter but his later books did.
    It seemed to get worst with each one.  I was hoping they would get more
    adventure and SF again like the first three, but they never did.
    
    P.S.  I agree with Jerry, number 3, PRIEST KINGS OF GOR was one
    of the best SF books I ever read.
    
    Mike_L

       I made a mistake, there are only 23 books so far, as to Pa-Kur
    returning, he has not, but in book 20 he begins a series in which
    Cos and Tyros are mounting together an army in which to attack
    Ar.  Tarl also learns that Marlenaus is away from the city and
    that his daughter (Tarls former wife) is behind a plot to help Cos
    and Tyros overthrow Ar. So far this story has involved books 20,21,23
    and is still being continued. If you can put up with the slave aspect
    the stories are basicaly pretty good.
    

    I wouldn't say it went rapidly downhill, but did get repetitive,
    even though his style improved with/after #3 (the last SF book in
    the series, the rest being more adventure).  In my opinion, TRIBESMEN
    was the last book that upheld the action & excitement of the series;
    lately he is stretching one book into two by cramming seemingly
    endless pages of the slave-girl bit down our throats.
    
    Best book of the series: NOMADS.

    							Don Rudman

Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers
Path: decwrl!pyramid!hplabs!sdcrdcf!ucla-cs!rutgers!clyde!cbatt!ihnp4!drutx!mtuxo!mtgzy!ecl
Subject: Re: Gor (BOOKLIST)
Posted: 31 Oct 86 13:31:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ
Cc: ecl
 
Well here's the list.  I won't rate each one, but suffice it to say that
1 through 5 are okay adventure and just about anything from 6 on is not.
(Noman's non-Gor books are GHOST DANCE, IMAGINATIVE SEX, and TIME SLAVE.)

	 1	Tarnsman of Gor
	 2	Outlaw of Gor
	 3	Priest-Kings of Gor
	 4	Nomads of Gor
	 5	Assassin of Gor
	 6	Raiders of Gor
	 7	Captive of Gor
	 8	Hunters of Gor
	 9	Marauders of Gor
	10	Tribesman of Gor
	11	Slave Girl of Gor
	12	Beasts of Gor
	13	Explorers of Gor
	14	Fighting Slave of Gor
	15	Rogue of Gor
	16	Guardsman of Gor
	17	Savages of Gor
	18	Blood Brothers of Gor
	19	Kajira of Gor
	20	Players of Gor
	21	Mercenaries of Gor
	22	Dancer of Gor
	23	Renegades of Gor
 
 
					Evelyn C. Leeper
					(201) 957-2070
				UUCP:	ihnp4!mtgzy!ecl
				ARPA:	mtgzy!ecl@rutgers.rutgers.edu

Are there times when it seems that parts of you are not all under
the same management?

Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers
Path: decwrl!pyramid!hplabs!tektronix!reed!mirth
Subject: Re: Gor
Posted: 2 Nov 86 08:47:57 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Keywords: avoid Gor like the plague
 
Even a line-eater won't eat a line from Gor!
 
I don't know why your friend recommended the Gor books...either it was
a cruel joke or you need to choose your friends more closely ( :-),
but with a grain of seriousness). 
 
The Gor books are sexist.  The Gor books are degrading to women, and a
bit to men as well (and no, I am by no means a rabid feminist.  I
prefer to think of myself as a humanist; I believe in the dignity and
essential equality of all human beings).  They promote the beliefs
that women want to be raped, that men can't enjoy sex unless the woman
is forced, that slavery is what most women really want. 
 
These books involve violence, sex, and violent sex.  I am not upset
that they are published, for I dislike censorship, but I feel that
purchasing them is a mistake, for doing so bolsters the Gor author's
belief that his opinions are valid and acceptable to others.  Go to
the library and choose a Gor book at random.  Open it at random.  Read
a sentence at random. You are 85-90% likely to read a sentence
represenative of every other sentence in the series.  Do you really
want to spend your money this way? 
 
Again, I am not a censor, a prude, or anyone else upset by inclusion
of 'real-world' things, such as sex and violence, in fantasy media. 
They can add that certain edge -- when they are NOT the sole point of
the story. Niven handles sex beautifully (if somewhat euphemistically)
in The Magic Goes Away.  Harlan Ellison describes violent acts in many
of his stories. But these works depend on more than the reader's
'titillation' (for lack of a better word) for their impact.  So:  read
a Gor book or two.  Get a feeling for what they are about.  Then
please, tell me:  what do you think?  I hope you will agree with my
distaste (no, repulsion) for these books.  But I will not tell you
what to think. 
 
Any other netters share my feelings about Gor?
 
                                 Yours for a better world,
                                 Ellen C.

    
    	I read one Gor book and the sole story was about a girl kidnapped
    from Earth trying to make her owner actually fall in Love with her
    instead of just keeping her around for sex.  he would constantly
    slap her around then rape her.  It was pretty bad.  Needless to
    say I haven't read another one since...
    
    	Mike

I don't know what happened when I did my reply, but my title appeared to
the last note.  Good thing I saved it, it didn't take the first time.

I suppose it was enevitable, but the story of GOR was made into a movie.
I don't remember seeing it advertised on television, but it has already been
released on video cassette.  It is a 1987 film presented by "Cannon 
International", and directed by Fritz Kiersch (Children of the Corn).
It stars Urbano Barberini as Tarl Cabot, Rebecca Ferratti (former Playboy
Playmate) as Taleena, Oliver Reed and Jack Palance.
I was walking around the video store last night when I saw it.  I was very
surprised and rented it immediately.  I enjoyed the first three books of the
series, so it needed a viewing.
This is my review without giving any spoilers.
I read stories 1-9 of GOR, and this movie did not have one iota of story-line
material.
Take all the character names, places and events, juggle them in a bag and
distribute to actors and actresses who never read the books to get a 
character discription, and you would have this movie.  Same names were even
used for different people and places.
The movie was about for the search of the "home stone" that was stolen from
the city of Koroba.  As I recall it, the "home stone" was stolen from Ar.
Th priest-kings were just humans that wanted to steal home stones.  There were
also no Tarns, just horses.  No sleens, tharlarian lizards, Nar the spider,
nothing else to let you know you were on the counter-earth.  The movie was
filmed in miles of desert terrain.
Even Hup the Fool makes an appearance in this film, but not as books portrayed
him.  He was a midget who makes his money gambling and by thievery.
Don't waste you money if your a GOR fan on this movie.  However, I know some
of you will rent it, but I warned you.  On a scale from 1-10, this movie OWES
points.

Mike_L

    Hmm, sounds like the movie's a must-miss.  I liked the first few books,
    though they did get repetitive.

    One of my friends' pastimes for a while was coming up with silly names
    for Gor books.  "Certified Public Accountant of Gor" was my personal
    favorite...

    Beverly

    re:.11
    
    That's a favorite pastime of a lot of people. My favorite was
    "Redneck Truckdrivers of Gor" (colloquially known as "Good Buddies
    of Gor").
    
    --- jerry

    Hah ha!!!  Good Buddies of Gor!  I love it!  ;DDDDDD
    
    Best laff I've had all day....
                                                    ---kim
    

    Stepford Wives of Gor? (Nah, that's redundant.)
    
    How about "The Total Woman of Gor"? Ol' whats-her-name ("wear
    saran wrap to entice hubby when he gets home") would fit right in.
    
    Hey, wait! Since the current trend seems to be dredging up those old
    family-comedy series, how about: "Donna Reed Goes to Gor"? "Ozzie and
    Harriet of Gor"?
    
    And of course there's "The Beaver of Gor"...
    
    (Gak! Jerry, it's all your fault - you started this!)
    
    -b

RE: the last few on "xxx of Gor"

At Noreascon II (1980), a photographer was giving a slide retrospective of
the previous years Worldcon Costume Ball.  One of the most impressive 
costumes of the evening was one of the simplest:  it consisted of sheer
harem pants, gold slippers, and small gold earrings.  That was it.  It was 
worn by a woman with an *EXQUISITE* figure. 

Well, you can imagine the reaction of most of the audience, and someone 
asked the photographer if he didn't think of himself as the photographer
of Barsoom.  His answer brought down the house:

	"No, I prefer to be the Lensman of Gor"

-- Ken Moreau

	Well, I haven't read any of the GOR books (yet).  But I do own two of
them.  Well, at least one.  A freind of mine, upon returning from Europe 
presented me with my first GOR book,  "Le Banni de GOR".  I never did get past
the first page.  Recently though, I did buy the english version "Outlaw of GOR".
Haven't got past the first page though.
	-JJ

    
    Someone you know with a birthday coming up?
    Do you have a lot of mildly twisted friends?
    
    Then have a "Birthdays of Gor" party.  Just make sure the police
    know you're not using real swords....
    
    DFW

    re: .15  You're on the right track:  Eager Beavers of Gor.
         
    re: .17  Maybe some day someone will give you a book written
             in a language you recognize.  :-)
    
    						Don
    
    P.S.  Pa-Kur's body was never found do I expect him to turn up
          eventually.  "Never be sure your enemy is dead unless you
          have seen the body."

    
    
    	- Carry-on Goh
    
    	- Bonzo goes to Goh
    
    Charlie

    
    And for the SCAdians out there -- 
    
    				Seneschals of Gor!!
    
    
    Re: .15:     (Gak! Jerry, it's all your fault - you started this!)
    
    
    	No, I did!
    
    Beverly (ska Alycia)
    

       The only GOR book I purchased is also the only book I have ever
       thrown out. What a bunch of perverted crap. This guy's sex life
       must be a fright. With that in mind I've come up with a story
       line for a new GOR book.

       "Giget goes to GOR" - a disease runs rampant amoung the slave
       girls turning them all terminally perky. After a number of
       "masters" die by being "perked" to death all the slaves are freed
       and the population starts on the road to civilization. liesl

    re:.22
    
    You may be surprised (or maybe not) to know that "John Norman"
    is (or possibly was -- he may make enough money from the Gor
    books to retire his "day job") a professor of philosophy at a
    university in New York.
    
    As for the movie, is not "in the works" -- it actually exists.
    I've heard that it's out on video, though I believe it missed
    the theaters.
    
    --- jerry

    
    Legions of heaven and saints preserve us, there are two of them.
    (Made simultaneously, like the Quatermain films from Cannon).
    
    I read one Gor book, because I was attending a party called "Birthdays
    of Gor."  It would have made an interesting little story with all
    the crap about naked flesh and D&S thrown out.  Of course, it would
    have only covered about 2,000 words, instead of 200,000.
    
    DFW

    
<    You may be surprised (or maybe not) to know that "John Norman"
<    is (or possibly was -- he may make enough money from the Gor
<    books to retire his "day job") a professor of philosophy at a
<    university in New York.
    
	He must still have a violent hate/fear of women. He made very
       clear in the book I read (Mages of GOR or something like that)
       free women were despicable and could only find happiness in being
       raped and brutalized by men.

       One last flame and I'll leave GOR alone. Would those of you who
       found some of these books acceptable have found them so if the men
       were the "love slaves" of the women? If the women made the men
       crawl at their feet and plead to be beaten and abused, if they
       were constantly humiliated and degraded would it seem so
       harmless? OK, I'll stop bitching and get back to SF. liesl

    re:.25
    
    There are a number of folks who feel that "Norman" (real name
    is John Lange) started the "love slave" business as a put-on,
    and ended up creating a monster when that proved to be the
    biggest selling point of the series. Which, of course, doesn't
    mean that he *doesn't* have a hatred or fear of women.
    
    I have no wish to defend the Gor series. As I said way back in
    .1, I've only read the first three, in which the "love slave"
    business is barely present. The treatment of women in those
    books is no different than in a random heroic fantasy novel
    (which is probably damning it with faint praise). I certainly
    don't consider the misogyny of the Gor novels to be acceptable.
    
    (Also, after reading all of the replies here again, I've noted
    that few people in this string has much good to say about the
    series in general.)
    
    Another thing I feel obliged to point out is that, surprisingly
    enough, a large number of Gor fans are women. And Gor-based
    costumes and skits were, at least back in the 70's, all the
    rage at sf convention masquerades. Again, this is not intended
    as a defense, merely presented as an observation. Personally,
    I can't understand why a rational ($DEFINE RATIONAL NON-SEXIST)
    man would find Gor's misogyny to be appealing. That a woman would
    find it so is nothing short of mind-boggling.
    
    Donald Wollheim (founder of DAW Booksm the publisher of the Gor
    novels) once said that the Gor series was far and away the best
    selling books he published, and that their sales were such that
    they balanced out the less commercial stuff that he wanted to
    publish. It's worth noting that a lot of this "chancey" material
    that the Gor series enabled him to publish was from women such
    as C.J. Cherryh and Tanith Lee. It seems hard to believe in
    retrospect, but there was a time when Cherryh was an "uncommercial"
    author. Wollheim has made a career out of "discovering" and
    promoting female authors (perhaps out of guilt for the Gor books :-)).
    I suppose it can be said that *some* good has come out of the Gor
    series.
    
    --- jerry

<    publish. It's worth noting that a lot of this "chancey" material
<    that the Gor series enabled him to publish was from women such
<    as C.J. Cherryh and Tanith Lee. It seems hard to believe in
<    retrospect, but there was a time when Cherryh was an "uncommercial"
<    author. Wollheim has made a career out of "discovering" and
<    promoting female authors (perhaps out of guilt for the Gor books :-)).
<    I suppose it can be said that *some* good has come out of the Gor
<    series.
    
	I suppose we have to take what good we can out of such
       situations. If Wollheim has indeed promoted such authors I guess
       I have to forgive him. :*)

       It does surprise me that women would be fans of this sort of book
       but then S&M and B&D are not extinct in real life either. I feel
       the need to start a new note comming on, get ready, liesl

    Well put, Jerry.  (You offended no-one ;-))
                                            
    Actually, in the first (of 3) Guardsmen book he took men to task,
    having a fellow brought from Earth as a love slave.  Comparing
    the male/female slave theme one gets the idea it is a form of
    brainwashing: this is how it's done, the society is structured  
    this way, and the collar makes you inferior.  I feel Mr. Lange
    is having us on.  So I just skip pages when he begins going on &
    on & on & on.   I wish he'd quit it so he can finish the story in
    a single book.
    
    I think the new one comes out this month....
    
    						Don

    I'm surprised no-one has mentioned one of my pet peeves about these
    books.
    
    	I, too, read the first three, then another, then another (I have a
    high kink threshold), and they really DID go down hill. Still, every
    once in awhile, in a fit of boredom, I'd pick up another. Then his
    stories started getting quite a bit longer. The reason they got longer:
    He would have his character think about what he was going to say. A
    whole conversation..... sometimes pages. Later, he'd have the character
    actually engage in this conversation; the whole thing.....pages. Later
    yet, He'd have the character REMEMBER the damned conversation......
    PAGES! This was not an isolated `convention'. He used this tactic
    repeatedly: with thoughts, conversations, recounting action, etc. He'd
    have OTHER characters come in and repeat parts of what they had heard
    the first character say! I couldn't believe it! Even if he IS being
    paid by the word, this was the pits. Then, to add insult to insult, at
    the end of the book (I think it was EVANGELISTS OF GOR), with the story
    line not even approaching resolution, were the words:
    
                             TO BE CONTINUED
    
    Needless to say, I have never purchased another Norman book.
    
    Mike 
                                         

    If one is into reading kinky stuff, alt.sex.bondage is *much*
    more interesting. :-)
    
    --- jerry

                I started reading Gor about 4 or 5 years ago when
                my friend gave  me the first 5 books.  Since that
                time, I've been trying  to  find each book in the
                proper order.  I've read up to 22 now and started
                23.  I don't know where  It  went  cause i put it
                down after getting bored with it.   i  though  it
                would  continue  where 22 left off (ar was  under
                attack),   but  no,  it  took  off  and  that  is
                continued  in 24.  now i have to find 24  and  23
                again.  i'll  eventually finish the series, but i
                really like the tarl/bosk  stories,  not the ones
                that are a one book standalone.
                
                - rob whose books may be off by one number -
                

NOOOOO not another one!!!!

I was in the video store over the weekend, and lo and behold there was a 
sequel to GOR the movie.  It was entitled, appropriately enough; OUTLAW OF GOR,
which happens to be the title of the second book in John Norman's series.
It stars all the same cast as I noted in my *.10 movie review earlier in 
this note.

Folks, if this movie is anything like the first one, don't waste the money to
rent it.

Mike_L

    Too late!  Just for glee I rented it to see if it was as bad as
    your description of the first.  It seemed to be worse.
    
    						Don

    re:.34
    
    I don't have anything *against* sports. I just don't have anything
    *for* them.
    
    --- jerry

                how many gor books are there these days anyway, i
                just finished number  24.  i'm going back to read
                22.  i skipped  it  cause  i  got  bored about 60
                pages through and 23 was  a  continuation  of 21.
                it took me time, but i'm finally learning to skip
                over  all the parts about kajira this  and  slave
                that.  we've already heard it at least 5 times in
                each  book.    now,  if  i only had a  chance  to
                practice it... :')
                
                - rob -
                 

<                that.  we've already heard it at least 5 times in
<                each  book.    now,  if  i only had a  chance  to
<                practice it... :')
<                
<                - rob -
                 
Practice what? degrading and enslaving women? liesl

                
                No comment  due  to the fact that it could return
                to haunt me ...
                
                :')
                
                
                - Rob -
                

    
    Hi Rob!!
    
    Feelin a little cold and lonely at night??
    
    grins,
    
    clark.

    SEE?!?!?!?!?!?  I get Honorable Mention in the FEMALE SCI-FI WRITERS
    (sic) note re: "sexist disclaimers--too bad we've become a society
    of disclaimers" and here you are being pinged for saying you'd like
    to try it.  Next thing you know you're being accused of allegedly
    (love that word; now more in use than "for only" and "free") enslaving
    women and plying the whip.  Well, I'd guess you could if you wished;
    I'm sure you could find a willing partner (either "free" or "for
    only"), and I'd also guess it is your business.  Another aspect
    of the disclaimers is that you can speak your mind but don't write
    it down.  (One of the Murphy's Laws' correlaries.)  Now if you'd
    said "*think* I'd like to try it" then you'd be fantasizing and that's
    O.K., 'cause this *is* the file for fantasy (;-)).  Let's face it;
    Gor is a fantasy world (since NOMADS) and that's the name of the
    game.  Just as some women fantasize they're Jirel of Jorey or Red
    Sonja (or even the Queen of the Black Coast), some men lament that
    on Earth a dung bag is used only for gathering dung.  
    
    Now, before the IOM-bombs begin arriving I'll reiterate what I said
    earlier: I skip the "slave-stuff" in the later Gor books and key
    on the story.  In the last book, I read only one passage on the Kajira
    bit, and that was half-a-page.  Why?  It got boring having him ram
    home a point every 5 pages.  The result?  A 45-min. read.
    
    Good Lord!  I just did it again!  Another disclaimer!!!  Maybe North
    is on the right track after all...
                        
    							Don
    
    P.S.  Re: how many-
    
    	      I think you bottomed out with #24.  I haven't seen a new
              one on sale.  Maybe he's being forced to write an *entire*
    	      novel instead of a novella w/essays.	
    
    

                Well, I'm reading 25 now (Magicians of Gor) which
                is about 500  pages,  probably  of  which  100 is
                Kajira stuff (which I'm  skipping over - I'm sick
                of  hearing  of  the  cursive  Kef  and  the  sme
                different  ways  of using ropes and  chains,  and
                those SCANDALOUS ta-teeras and siriks, etc)
                
                

    Oh well.  I haven't updated my library list since Oct of '86 (when 
    the house construction started) and it appears I won't get back
    to it until the library shelves get built.  MAGICIANS *is* the
    last one out.  And, since I followed the same reading routine, the
    book went very quickly for me, also.
    
    I figure sooner or later he has to bring back Pa-Kur, and/or send
    Cabot to the Steel Worlds (or maybe not; a trip to the Steel Worlds
    would be SF...)  :=) 
         
    						Don
     

    As I read your (generic) responses about why you read GOR I just
    can't get over the feeling that all you folks probably buy HUSTLER
    for reading the articles too. liesl :*)

    Probably beating a dead horse here, but the point is the first 4
    books didn't force it down your throat.  I like his style, and
    when he is sticking to the action he keeps your interest up.
    Like any other subject, after you've exhausted yourself there's
    no sense trying to repeat it.  Give it a rest, John.
    
    Metaphorically speaking, of course.
    
    						Don

    P.S. "Curiosity is not becoming in a Kajira."

                
                I was  waiting for a long time for Pa-Kur to show
                back up, I  almost  thought  he would back in the
                book with the Tuchuck  'egg', but Tarl killed off
                they guy and no mention was made.  At this point,
                I don't think he will.   I  did like 'Ubar of the
                skies'  showing up with the red savages  when  he
                did.  THat caught me off guard, but  this  Kajira
                stuff...  I've had enough of it.  When  he starts
                it,  I  just  look for the next indent for a  new
                paragraph.    At the place I buy most of my books
                (Carey's bookstore  in  Plaistow, NH), he said he
                actually had a  woman  in there once how insisted
                that she was the  author  of  the later Gor books
                (supposedly there is more that  one writer, but I
                never noticed a style change).  
                
                At least the homestone of Ar's Station is on it's
                way to Port Cos...
                
                - Rob -
                
                The  next  book  should  be  out, Magician's  was
                written over a year or two ago, and  they must be
                putting them out much faster than that, otherwise
                the series would have started in 1964.....
                
                

    _Tarnsmen of Gor_ was published in 1966, actually. Until lately,
    Norman has managed to churn out one a year (sometimes two).
    
    As for the next installment in the series, there has been no mention
    of it in recent Locus publisher's lists, so don't hold your breath.
    
    Some random observations:
    	Gor books have some redeeming features. As has been repeatedly
    said, the first few novels were good and mostly clean swashbucklers.
    Check out _Assasins of Gor_ (#5) for the best of this style.
    	Norman, unfortunately, went on to imbue his work with his own
    peculiar fetishes; if you can ignore this material (or treat it
    as irrelevant adolescent fantasy), the remaining words are still
    worthy of moderate interest.
    	On the postive side, Norman does raise some interesting
    philosopical points (not suprising considering his vocation) and
    his writing style is unique.
    
    	If you think GOR is bad, have a look at stuff by Simon Finch
    or Sharon Green. We are talking really offensive here.
    
    					Michael

                
                Funny  you  mention  this,  I  just  asked  at  a
                bookstore about forthcoming  GOR,  and nothing at
                all showed up.   Looks  like  the  latest is #25,
                Magicians of Gor published in June 1988.  *sigh*
                
                I want my Tarl Cabot!!! :')
                

    Looks like some feminist finally got the author then ?

    T'were liker a financial analyst...
       
    						Don

    
    
    Tal!
    
    Still no news here eh?  Shucks.  He used to fire these things out every
    6-9 months, now nothing for years.  The Kurii must have gotten him.
    
    - Rob who was recently trying to design a Kaissa board -
    
    Ta Sardar Gor!
    

    
    
    Well, called DAW Books.  Those guys were useless.  Either that or I
    spoke to the wrong people.  THe only comment I got offered was, "Maybe
    he got tired of writing books."  They were rude and unhelpful.
    

    Minor update re .10/.32: the movie "Outlaw," _very_ loosely based on
    "Outlaw of Gor," received the honor of being MST'ed last weekend on
    MST3K. It's really an incredibly bad movie, lots of incomprehensible
    cuts, plots that twist away into nothing, no particular sense of time
    or place - and what acting! Oh, my... [I needn't add that the MST guys
    had a field day with it.]
    
    -b

    
    Boy, talk about not knowing your audience.  One of the plot threads was
    freeing the slaves. :-)
    
    This is the first time I've actually sat all the way through MST3K in a
    long time, and it was pretty amusing.
    
    DFW

    ... but fantastic (in the original sense) hats!
    
    							Ann B.

I can't resist adding this. I met a man recently at a party that was *totally*
into GOR. What a mondo geek. I nearly lost it when he showed me his tinfoil
helmet and asked if I'd like to participate in a Gorian fantasy. He looked like
Marvin the Martian. Yeah right, sure I'd love to be humiliated by an overweight,
out of shape, pervert that can't even make a decent costume. (now if he'd been a
hunk in a great costume...) liesl