Conference noted::sf

    Try "Footfall" by Niven and Pournelle
    
    "Ender's Game" (Orson Scott Card) has a sequel, but stands
    well alone. (But I guarantee, you'll *want* to read the
    sequel)

    I'll repeat my opinion of the best SF book of all time:
    
    	_Lord_of_Light_ by Roger Zelazny.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Since you also mentioned fantasy, I have a couple of suggestions.
    
    One I read a few months ago was called (I think...) "Twilight's
    Kingdoms" by Nancy Asire.  I've never seen anything else by her,
    but wish I had.
    
    Another I've read recently that I'd recommend is "Daughter of the
    Empire" by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts.  It's a spin-off of the
    "Magician" series by Feist, but not directly related to that story.
    It stands alone very nicely, and is one of those books I couldn't put
    down once I started it.
    
    ... Bob

    Don't forget the sf anthologies of short stories and novelettes.
    They are nice to have around for quick reading and usually give
    the flavor of the author's longer works. 
    
    Sherry

Re .3

>    Another I've read recently that I'd recommend is "Daughter of the
>    Empire" by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts.  It's a spin-off of the
>    "Magician" series by Feist, but not directly related to that story.
>    It stands alone very nicely, and is one of those books I couldn't put
>    down once I started it.
    
As I understand it, "Daughter of the Empire" is the first book in a
projected trilogy, so is probably not appropriate to this topic, even though
it stands alone fairly well.  I wasn't all that impressed with the book,
for all that, and may not bother with the other two unless they hit a local
library during a dry period.

				Andrew

    While it's true that the majority of the sf books on the racks
    today have sequels up the wahzoo, in a lot of cases, reading the
    sequels aren't necessary. For instance, though DUNE has five
    sequels, one can just read DUNE, get a complete story, and forget
    the other books even exist.
    
    THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE, by Niven & Pournelle, is part of a longer
    future history of Pournelle's, but it still stands on its own.
    
    And so on.
    
    Two of my personal favorites in the field don't have sequels or
    follow-ups: THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman and A CANTICLE FOR
    LEIBOWITZ by Walter M. Miller (actually, Michael Bishop has written
    one novella, "The White Otters of Childhood" and one novel, AND
    STRANGE AT ECTABAN THE TREES, that are supposedly set centuries
    later in the Leibowitz universe, but the connection is very tenuous).
    
    --- jerry

    I checked my lists, and these are the best single books I've read
    recently, some may not be all that new, it just took me a while
    to find them -
    
	A. A. Attanasio         In Other Worlds                 
	Greg Bear               Eon                             
	Gregory Benford         Against Infinity                
	Robert Brin             The Practice Effect             
	                        The Postman                     
	Samuel R Delaney        Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand
	Robert L. Forward       Flight of the Dragonfly        
	Mary Gentle             Golden Witchbreed               
	Colin Greenland         The Hour of the Thin Ox         
	Joe Haldeman            Dealing in Futures (shorts)
	Brian Jacques           Redwall                         
	Donald Kingsbury        Geta                            
	Ellen Kushner           Swordspoint                     
	Ursula K. Le Guin       Always Coming Home              
	Kim Stanley Robinson    The Memory of Whiteness         

    I like both Hard SF and Fantasy so there is a good mix.
    
    
    	Cheers...	Doug.    

	I still list "SHARDS OF HONOR" as a great single book, it's by
	Lois McMaster Bujold. liesl

Two long time favorites:

MACROSCOPE............Piers Anthony
AVATAR................Poul Anderson

Scott

    Flight of the Dragonfly has a sequel (written much later) called
    Dragon's Egg, but the first one stands well on it's own...
    
    I'll post a list later....
    
    Willie
    

    re .10:
    
    > Flight of the Dragonfly has a sequel (written much later) called
    > Dragon's Egg, ...
    
    which has a sequel _Starquake_.
    
    (thus completing the mandatory trilogy?)
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /                              
    
    P.S. I'll second _A_Canticle_for_Liebowitz_. 

    Hello all! Im new around here, and an avid SF/Fantasy Fan..
    If I were to suggest only one book (w/o a sequel) which is
    my favorite, I would HAVE to say:
    STARDANCE by Spider and Jean Robinson
    
    EXCELLENT! I only got it a 6 months ago, but Ive already reread
    it many times. It is very 60's influenced in its attitudes towards
    sex, drugs and government..I strongly recommend it!
    
                      -Dan Kachoogian (sometimes known as Lije Baily)
    

    RE .7
    
    Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, but I found "In Other Worlds"
    by A.A. Attanasio to be one of the worst movels I've read in a long
    time.  In fact, it was one of the few novels I've started and didn't
    finish.  I gave my copy away to someone who actually *liked* it. 
    However, I thoroughly enjoyed, and would recommend, "RADIX" which is
    also by Attanasio, and is a stand-alone novel.
    
    I'll second "Eon" by Greg Bear.  Wierd ending, but a great story.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    
    	re .10,.11
    
    	I've read 'Dragons Egg' ans 'Starquake', but don't remember
    	them being related to 'Flight of the Dragonfly', totally
    	different worlds. In the UK 'Egg' came out before 'Flight',
    	was it the same mission? the same humans?.
    
    	And now that I think on it 'Stars in my Pocket...' will have
    	a sequel.
    
    	re .last
    
    	Yup, must be, I liked 'Radix' also, but not quite as much.
    
    	Cheers...	Doug. 
    	

    Hmm, no one has mentioned "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester,
    discussed at length elsewhere in this conference.

    "Web of the Chozen" is one of the few stand-alone novels Jack Chalker
    has written.  It's no classic, but I found it enjoyable light reading.

    I'll also second the suggestion of collections of short stories.

    Beverly

    re: .10
    
    >Flight of the Dragonfly has a sequel (written much later) called
    >Dragon's Egg, but the first one stands well on it's own...
    
    "Flight of the Dragonfly" is standalone (the only connection it
    has to "Dragon's Egg" is that one of the characters *reads* it as
    an S/F novel...)
    
    "Dragon's Egg", however, does have a sequel called "Starquake" which
    was written much later :-)
    				- HBM
    

    I knew I was confused!  Sorry, "Dragonfly" _is_ a good standalone,
    "Starquake" is a sequel to "Dragon's Egg".  That's what I get for
    spouting off without checking my list....
    
    Willie
    

    "Masters of the maze" by Davidson. It's fantasy, it's truly remarkable.
    
    Arie

    
    Personally I'd second the vote for "The Mote in God's Eye". One
    of my favorite books of all time.
    
    -Ray
    

    A sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye" has been written and will soon
    be out in hardcover.  
    
    Tony

    The Disposessed  by  U. K. LeGuin
    
    ASP

    Another good one shot by Jack Chalker is _Dancers in the Afterglow_.

    Andy...

    "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny
    
    "The Computer Connection" by Alfred Bester (which I saw in paperback
    only once, bought it, and have never seen again)
    
    And, for the Chalker fans, I'd recommend "The Devil Will Drag You
    Under"
    
    
      Scott L.

    As long as we're discussing Niven & Pournelle, how about _Lucifer's
    Hammer_ or _Dream Park_ (with Steve Barnes).

As long as we're mentioning Bester, what about _The Demolished Man_?

And LeGuin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_ is also one of the best (she
has a number of novels which share the same universe but which are not
really connected in any other important way).

In a more rambunctious and melodramatic vein, there's Charles Harness's
_The Paradox Men_.

And Arthur C. Clarke has _The City and the Stars_, one of his better
elegiac novels.

As far as I can remember, _Earth Abides_ was George Stewart's only
science fiction novel.

That's only five.  There must be many more (in addition to the initial
volumes in series--like _Dune_--that stand on their own).

    An important point to remember, which I brought up in my previous
    note) is that when one talks about a "series", there are really
    three different animals involved:
    
    (1) The multi-volume novel
    
    (2) The series
    
    (3) A Future History or Common Universe
    
    These are (generally speaking) in descending order of connectivity.
    
    In the case of (3), the connectivity is really just a sharing of
    a common background universe. Otherwise the novels stand on their
    own as single novels. All of the books in Niven's Known Space
    series, for instance, stand on their own. Each can be read without
    having read any of the others (the one possible exception is RING-
    WORLD ENGINEERS, which would make much more sense if one's read
    RINGWORLD already, but I don't think even this is essential).
    Other examples of this are LeGuin's Hainish novels (THE LEFT HAND
    OF DARKNESS, THE DISPOSSESSED, et alia), Poul Anderson's Polseo-
    technic History (THE PEOPLE OF THE WIND, the Van Rijn/Falkayn
    books, the Dominic Flandry novels, et alia), and Jack Vance's
    Alastor Cluster/Gaen Reach novels (TRULLION: ALASTOR 2262, THE
    GALACTIC EFFECTUATOR, THE GRAY PRINCE, et alia).
    
    Generally, what distinguishes (2) from (3) is that in the case of
    (2), each book tends to pick up pretty much from where the previous
    one leaves off, and they tend to (though certainly not always) follow
    the same character or group of characters. In these cases, it's
    almost certain that the first novel in the series is readable as
    a stand-alone novel, and quite often, the successive volumes are
    also readable stand-alone, though they tend to make more sense if
    the earlier books have been read already. Examples might be Asimov's
    Robot/Empire/Foundation series, Dickson's Childe Cycle, and Vance's
    Dying Earth series.
    
    Case (1) is the bitch. LORD OF THE RINGS is an obvious example,
    as is Gene Wolfe's THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. Most often, you can
    tell this because they are labelled "trilogies", when indeed they
    are no such thing.
    
    [As a matter of fact, I can think of only two genuine trilogies in
    all of science fiction and fantasy. The first is Blish's "After
    Such Knowledge" -- DOCTOR MIRABILIS (which actually isn't sf in
    itself), BLACK EASTER/THE DAY AFTER JUDGEMENT (which have always
    been published separately, but they are actually two halves of one
    book), and A CASE OF CONSCIENCE. The second is Mary Stewart's
    Merlin Trilogy: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, THE HOLLOW HILLS, and THE LAST
    ENCHANTMENT. I would, though, entertain arguments for some others,
    such as the original three Dragonriders of Pern novels by McCaffrey,
    Lewis's "Space Trilogy", and LeGuin's "Earthsea Trilogy". If we
    allowed films, I would make a definite case for the Mad Max Trilogy.
    Every other "trilogy" is either a three-volume novel, such as LORD
    OF THE RINGS, or a series that just happens to have three novels in
    it, such as Jones' Colossus series.]
    
    At any rate, the fact that a book is part of a series doesn't
    necessarily mean that it can't be read on its own. A book being
    flagged as part of a series is mostly just a marketing gimmick on
    the part of the publishers. The hard part is telling the difference
    between (1), (2), and (3).
    
    --- jerry

    No one has mentioned:-
    
    _The Gods Themselves_ by Isaac Asimov
    
    _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ by Robert Heinlien
    
    Regards,
    Michelle
    

    One of my long_time_favorites is Blish's "Cities In Flight", which
    is a rather large book with 3(?) parts, but I don't know that they
    were ever published separately...
    
    Willie

    
    Somebody mentioned the '60s, which reminded me of one of my favorites--
    _(Through?) A Scanner Darkly_by Philip K. Dick. Dick also wrote
    a few others which have a common theme (_VALIS_, _Radio Free Albamuth_
    [that can't be the right spelling...)], combining SF with Gnosticism
    (!). Both are quite good on their own (if you're into 
    Gnosticism...:-) )
    
    Short stories? _Burning Chrome_ by Gibson...anything by Cordwainer
    Smith...
    
    

    
    
    I liked a somewhat older one called _Sovereign_ by hmm...  M. D.
    sombody I can't remember ( I do that well).  Interesting story which
    I found similar to the first Piers Anthony space tyrant but better.
    

    re:.28
    
    CITIES IN FLIGHT has definitely been published as separate books
    (four, by the way). In fact, it wasn't until circa 1970 that they
    were published in omnibus form. The individual books are:
    
    (1) THEY SHALL HAVE STARS (a.k.a. YEAR 2018!)
    (2) A LIFE FOR THE STARS
    (3) EARTHMAN, COME HOME
    (4) THE TRIUMPH OF TIME (a.k.a. A CLASH OF CYMBALS)
    
    --- jerry

    Someone did mention _Star_Dancer_, but I have to add: anything,
    anything, anything by Spider Robinson.  You just can't go wrong
    there, but the best ones are: Mindkiller and Telempath.
    
    A number of his books are collections of short stories, including
    Antinomy (out of print, but if you can find it, it's much better
    than the partial re-do in Melancholy_Elephants) and Callahan's,
    which is only sort of science fiction, and is a series.
    
    And by the way, if anyone has any idea when Robinson is coming out
    with a new novel, I'd love to know...
    
    Diana

    Can it be possible that no one's mentioned John Brunner's "Stand
    on Zanzibar?"
    
    len.
    

    I have to agree with that "Diana Carroll" person, whoever she is
    :+).  Anything at all by Spider Robinson (with the possible exception
    of "Night Of Power").  Stardancer (with Jeanne) is in my list of
    top 10....
    
    Willie

     The one that comes to my mind is "Starman Jones". I don't remember
    the author but if someone else does, please imput it. Its looks
    like it might be just another post-nuclear story. But it takes some
    very interesting twists. 
     "The Universe Between" is another one of my faves. And "The Mercy
    Men" will keep you wondering whats going to happen next. The authors
    to these I don't recall either. But they are worth the reading.
    
    Spirit

    Some less recent works also come to mind.  Although loosely related to
    the "Foundation" series, Asimov's books, "The Currents of Space", "The
    Stars, Like Dust" and "Pebbles in the Sky" are all good reading, and
    are all complete novels unto themselves.
    
    Also, Clarke's "Rendevous with Rama" (rumoured to have a sequel at some
    time in the future) is an excellent story and stands alone very nicely. 
    Other Clarke favorites that are stand-alone are "Childhood's End" and
    "Songs of Distant Earth".
    
    ... Bob

    "Starman Jones" is the name of a Heinlein 'juvenile' novel (I hate
    the label 'juvenile'!), but doesn't have anything to do with
    post-nuclear anything, maybe there's another...
    
    Willie

I believe the author of MERCY MEN is Alan Nourse.

				Rod Burr

    I'm not sure, but I think the only Heinlein novel to do with
    post-nuclear living is _Farnham's Freehold_.  I know he has some
    shorts about it, but I think that's the only novel.

My wife also doesn't have a lot of time to read, and therefore doesn't want to
get into a book with lots of sequels.  A while ago she asked me if there was
anything good in my fairly extensive collection of SF and fantasy.  Knowing
that what I gave her had to be top-notch, and couldn't give her a bad 
impression of SF&F, I picked the following:

SF - "Citizen of the Galaxy" by Heinlein.  In my opinion by far the best of
	a very strong collection of juvenile SF novels.  After this one I
	would place "The Star Beast" and "Have Space Suit Will Travel".

	After these would come things like "The Deep Range" by Clarke, and
	"The Ship Who Sang" by McCaffery.  Also, if the person likes adventure
	type novels, with a lot of action (and where the scientific accuracy 
	can be taken with a grain of salt), try the Lensman novels by E. E.
	Smith ("Gray Lensman" is the best stand-alone novel), or most of Colin 
	Kapp's earlier work (such as "The Chaos Weapon" or "The Survival Game").

Fantasy - "Dragonsbane" by Barbara Hambly.  To me this is the best of the
	'realistic fantasy' novels that I have ever read.  (By realistic
	fantasy I mean that you start with a few very basic assumptions,
	such as that magic works and dragons exist, and then everything
	else is as close to this reality as you can make it.  Therefore, I
	don't consider Tolkein to be realistic fantasy.  Great fantasy yes, 
	realistic fantasy no).

Notice that I would *NOT* recommend any of Heinlein's later works (anything
including "Starship Troopers" and later).  This is not to say I don't think
they are excellent works, I do.  But there are elements in them which might
get in the way of a new-comers enjoyment of SF&F, and which would distract
someone from a discussion of the qualities and features of SF&F.

I would also not recommend any Tolkein, or any of Hambly's other works, 
because of the restriction about sequel-itis.

-- Ken Moreau

    re:.38 re:.35
    
    Yes, the author of THE MERCY MEN (*and* THE UNIVERSE BETWEEN) is
    Alan Nourse (pronounced "nurse").
    
    --- jerry

    Wow,  I didn't expect quite this much response, although it has
    helped to jog my memory quite a bit.  I tend to think of sequel
    books as books written in the same universe, the best example of
    this is in for Anderson's Ensign Flandry stuff, which is good but
    when someone is starting to read sf the idea of reading many books
    too get the whole story can be duanting.  Another book that is duanting
    is "Stand on Zanzibar", although I read it many times and enjoyed
    it, I can't reccomend that book to a berginner.  Also I believe
    it too has a sequel "The Sheep look Up"?
    
    Anyway thanks for the memory jog
    Joe

    "The Sheep Look Up" is not a sequel to "Stand on Zanzibar", it's
    a separate and distinct work with much the same flavor.  See also
    "The Jagged Orbit", another of Brunner's future-bummers.  "The Sheep
    Look Up" sort of takes the prize for dystopias, though.
    
    Could we possibly trick someone into rolling up everything that's
    been recommended into a single list?
    
    len.
    

    re:.42
    
    Yes, it certainly *is* daunting to feel that you have to read a
    large number of books to get the "whole" story, but in many
    cases where the connecting thread is merely a background universe,
    msot of the books can be read on their own. There is something
    of a "larger" story that can be absorbed by reading all of the
    books, but that's another thing entirely.
    
    As Len said, THE SHEEP LOOK UP is not a sequel to STAND ON
    ZANZIBAR, though it is often referred to as such. It can be
    argued that these two, plus THE JAGGED ORBIT, form a thematic
    unity, but that's stretching it a bit.
    
    --- jerry

    RE: past notes
    
     Starman Jones story is about a young boy that is trying to be like
    his father. And it tells about his adventures to become the "Star"
    bearer of his tribe. The story goes into detail to explain the reason
    there are so many mutants around. Thats how I deduced it was after
    a nuclear blast.
    
    Ben

    
    Re: Starman Jones - 
    
    The book you're talking about is NOT "Starman Jones", by
    Robert Heinlein.  Starman Jones is about a boy that wanted
    to be a spaceman, like his uncle that was a navigator on
    a spaceship.  With some help and misadventures, he fakes
    the paperwork and spaces as a cargo handler... until the
    big misadventure, and he gets to be a navigator.  
    
    The book that you are (I believe) thinking about is
    "Starman's Son", also titled "Daybreak - 2250 A.D.",
    by Andre Norton.  The boy in question had trained to
    become a Star Man, but was not accepted because he
    was a mutant (marked by white hair).  He exiled
    himself, with his (large) cat companion, and had
    a number of adventures in a "U.S. east coast after the
    war" country.  There are a number of hints that this
    is after a (nuclear) war - his hiking past the remains
    of an armored column (tanks, trucks, etc.), having to
    go through an area with no vegetation, and comments
    about having to avoid "blue" cities (easy to spot - 
    they glow blue at night...).  
    
    Does this clear things up?
    
                              - Ed Bourgault -

     Nova by Sam R Deleney
    Norstrailia by cordwainder smith
    Man in a high castle by P K Dick
    Do androids dream of electric sheep or under the title of 
    Blade Runner by P K Dick
    The end of eternity by I Asimov
    The End Of Time by Olaf Stapleton, it includes Starmaker and Last
    and First Men, not possible for a series he covers EVERYTHINGS
    in these novels.

    re:.47
    
    Well, I would second the recommendation for all of the books you
    list (except perhaps DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?, which
    I couldn't slog my way through). But, given the conditions of
    the request, two of those don't count as "single novels":
    
    NORSTILIA is part of a larger series about the Instrumentality of
    Mankind.
    
    THE END OF ETERNITY has been retroactively made part of Asimov's
    Robots/Empire/Foundation series.
    
    --- jerry

    As promised, my list of single novels (though the definition is
    kind of fuzzy, do you count collections of short stories about the
    same character which were previously published but have now been
    collected in a single book a novel or not?) culled from the list
    of books in my library:  These are the ones I would recomend!
    
    [Book type (NOVEL), ISBN, and comment fields have been removed to
    make the list fit in 80 collumns, the original list is 132 wide..]
    
    Willie
    
    -----------------------------------
    
    Asimov, Isaac		Pebble In The Sky		
Asimov, Isaac		The Currents Of Space		
Asimov, Isaac		The Gods Themselves		
Bova, Ben		Kinsman	       			
Brackett, Leigh		The Long Tomorrow		
Bradley, Marion Zimmer	Survey Ship			
Brin, David		The Postman			
Brunner, John		The Shockwave Rider		
Brunner, John		The Crucible Of Time		
Brunner, John		The Sheep Look Up		
Brunner, John		Stand On Zanzibar		
Bryant, Edward		Phoenix Without Ashes		
Caraker, Mary		Seven Worlds			
Clarke, Arthur C.	A Fall Of Moondust		
Clarke, Arthur C.	Rendezvous With Rama		
Clarke, Arthur C.	The Songs Of Distant Earth	
Delaney, Joseph H.	Valentina, Soul In Sapphire	
Dickson, Gordon R.	Spacepaw			
Farmer, Philip Jose'	The Cache			
Haldeman, Joe		The Forever War			
Harrison, Harry		Bill, The Galactic Hero		
Harrison, Harry		Star Smashers Of Galaxy Rangers	
Harrison, Harry		One Step From Earth		
Harrison, Harry		Make Room, Make Room		
Heinlein, Robert A.	I Will Fear No Evil		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Stranger In A Strange Land	
Heinlein, Robert A.	Friday				
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress	
Heinlein, Robert A.	Glory Road			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Citizen Of The Galaxy		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Double Star			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Farnham's Freehold		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Starship Troopers		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Orphans Of The Sky		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Door Into Summer		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Day After Tomorrow		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Puppet Masters		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Beyond This Horizon		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Starman Jones			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Have Space Suit - Will Travel	
Heinlein, Robert A.	Between Planets			
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Star Beast			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Rocket Ship Galileo		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Time For The Stars		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Space Cadet			
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Rolling Stones		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Red Planet			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Podkayne Of Mars		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Tunnel In The Sky		
Ing, Dean		Pulling Through			
Knight, Damon		C.V.  [Sea Venture]		
Martin, George R.R.	Tuf Voyaging			
McCaffrey, Anne		The Ship Who Sang		
McKinley, Robin		Beauty				
Morressy, John		The Questing Of Kedrigern	
Morris, Janet and Chris	The 40 Minute War		
Niven, Larry		The Patchwork Girl		
Niven, Larry		World Of Ptavvs			
Niven, Larry		Protector			
Niven, Larry		A Gift From Earth		
Niven, Larry		The Integral Trees		
	[well, OK, "The Smoke Ring" is a sequel, but just
	read this one and ignore the other!]
Niven, Larry		The Long Arm Of Gil Hamilton	
Norton, Andre		Daybreak - 2250 A.D.		
Palmer, David R.	Emergence			
Piper, H. Beam		The Cosmic Computer		
Piper, H. Beam		Space Viking			
Pohl, Frederik		The Years Of The City		
Pournelle, Jerry	The Mote In God's Eye		
Pournelle, Jerry	King David's Spaceship		
Pournelle, Jerry	Exiles To Glory			
Pournelle, Jerry	High Justice			
Pournelle, Jerry	Footfall			
Pournelle, Jerry	Oath Of Fealty			
Rand, Ayn		Anthem				
Robinson, Spider	Mindkiller			
Robinson, Spider	Telempath			
Robinson, Spider	Stardance			
Ryan, Thomas J.		The Adolescence Of P-1		
Sheckley, Robert	The Journey Of Joenes		
Silverberg, Robert	Time Of The Great Freeze	
Simak, Clifford D.	City				
Smith, George O.	The Complete Venus Equilateral	
Stasheff, Christopher	A Wizard In Bedlam		
Stewart, George R.	Earth Abides			
Stoutenburg, Adrien	Out There			
Sucharitkul, Somtow	Mallworld			
Swanwick, Michael	In The Drift			
Varley, John		Millennium			
Vinge, Joan D.		The Outcasts Of Heaven Belt	
Vinge, Vernor		The Peace War			
	[again, I don't care that it's a prequel, read it and
	ignore "Marooned In Real Time"!]
Watt-Evans, Lawrence	With A Single Spell		
Watt-Evans, Lawrence	The Misenchanted Sword		
White, James		The Dream Millennium		
Wyndham, John		The Day Of The Triffids		
Zahn, Timothy		Spinneret			
Zelazny, Roger		Roadmarks			

    re:.49
    
    Again, it depends on how you define "single books". At least
    one-sixth of the books you list are parts of series. Generally,
    they are only such because they are part of a common universe
    with other books, but...
    
    --- jerry

>    THE END OF ETERNITY has been retroactively made part of Asimov's
>    Robots/Empire/Foundation series. 
    
>    --- jerry

    Where does it fit in?  Isn't this one the one about time travel?
    Asimov's Robots/Empire/Foundation does not deal in time travel.
    Asimov's own list of stories included in the Robots/Empire/Foundation
    series (see 377.30) does not include THE END OF ETERNITY.  Regardless,
    the book stands very well on its own and has no sequel or prequel that
    I am aware of. 
    
    I don't agree with lumping similar universe stories into the category
    of series.  Quite a few authors develop a universe and write stories
    about it.  I can't see how a good stand alone novel which may take
    place in the universe of another stand alone novel by the same author
    would be intimidating to someone who doesn't want to get involved in a
    series.  It may peak the interest of the reader enough to read other
    works, or it may turn them off, but reading those other works is not
    required to enjoy the initial work. 
    

    Re .51 (Jerry):
    
    Ah, all the reading!
    
    >Where does it fit in?  Isn't this one the one about time travel?
    >Asimov's Robots/Empire/Foundation does not deal in time travel.
     
    But if you recall, at the conclusion of TEOE, Noys explained to
    Andrew that the development of time travel cost humanity the stars
    (interstellar space-travel technology came too late, and that by
    the time humanity reached the stars, other species had overrun the
    inhabitable planets).  To get humanity out to the stars, the people
    she came from (on the other side of the Barrier) were going to do
    an alteration by introducing atomic energy to Man early -- through
    careful data fed to the nuclear scientists.  This would result,
    according to their projections, in a galaxy-wide (human) empire,
    with a high probability of a radioactive Earth in the process; but
    Mankind would spread to the stars.  Thus, it "fits" at the very
    beginning -- before _Pebble In the Sky_, and before even the Robot
    books.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re:.51
    
    As far as common universe stories = or =/= series, I agree with
    you, but if you'll read the original request, and some of the
    follow-ups, you'll see that the person requesting would be put
    off a bit by, say, PROTECTOR, if he sees that it's part of a
    larger series of books, whether they are only thinly connected
    or not.
    
    As for Asimov, unless I've lost it (my mind, that is) completely,
    one of the recent books (forget which one, dammit) did have a
    reference that tied TEoE in with the rest of them. I wish I could
    remember what it was.
    
    --- jerry

>   As for Asimov, unless I've lost it (my mind, that is) completely,
>   one of the recent books (forget which one, dammit) did have a
>   reference that tied TEoE in with the rest of them. I wish I could
>   remember what it was.

  Foundation's Edge -- refers to the Eternals as an old legend.

  -- Bill B.

    RE: .46
    
     I stand corrected. You are right! It was Starman's Son.
    
    
    Thanks
    Ben

    OK, in response to an incredible volume of mail I've received about
    my previous reply, I'll shorten the list a bit...

    All right, that's as far as I can cut it down!  These are my top
    ten favorite single novels!
        
Asimov, Isaac		Pebble In The Sky		
Bova, Ben		Kinsman				
Brackett, Leigh		The Long Tomorrow		
Brin, David		The Postman			
Brunner, John		The Shockwave Rider		
Brunner, John		The Sheep Look Up		
Bryant, Edward		Phoenix Without Ashes		
Clarke, Arthur C.	A Fall Of Moondust		
Clarke, Arthur C.	The Songs Of Distant Earth	
Delaney, Joseph H.	Valentina, Soul In Sapphire	
Haldeman, Joe		The Forever War			
Harrison, Harry		Star Smashers Of Galaxy Rangers	
Heinlein, Robert A.	I Will Fear No Evil		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Friday				
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress	
Heinlein, Robert A.	Glory Road			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Citizen Of The Galaxy		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Double Star			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Starship Troopers		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Orphans Of The Sky		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Door Into Summer		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Day After Tomorrow		
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Puppet Masters		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Starman Jones			
Heinlein, Robert A.	Have Space Suit - Will Travel	
Heinlein, Robert A.	Rocket Ship Galileo		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Space Cadet			
Heinlein, Robert A.	The Rolling Stones		
Heinlein, Robert A.	Tunnel In The Sky		
Knight, Damon		C.V.  [Sea Venture]		
Martin, George R.R.	Tuf Voyaging			
Niven, Larry		Protector			
Niven, Larry		A Gift From Earth		
Niven, Larry		The Integral Trees		
	[well, OK, "The Smoke Ring" is a sequel, but just
	read this one and ignore the other!]
Niven, Larry		The Long Arm Of Gil Hamilton	
Palmer, David R.	Emergence			
Piper, H. Beam		The Cosmic Computer		
Pournelle, Jerry	King David's Spaceship		
Pournelle, Jerry	Exiles To Glory			
Pournelle, Jerry	Footfall			
Pournelle, Jerry	Oath Of Fealty			
Rand, Ayn		Anthem				
Robinson, Spider	Mindkiller			
Robinson, Spider	Telempath			
Robinson, Spider	Stardance			
Sheckley, Robert	The Journey Of Joenes		
Smith, George O.	The Complete Venus Equilateral	
Stasheff, Christopher	A Wizard In Bedlam		
Stewart, George R.	Earth Abides			
Stoutenburg, Adrien	Out There			
Varley, John		Millennium			
Vinge, Vernor		The Peace War			
	[again, I don't care that it's a prequel, read it and
	ignore "Marooned In Real Time"!]
Wyndham, John		The Day Of The Triffids		
Zahn, Timothy		Spinneret			

re: .50    
>    Again, it depends on how you define "single books". At least
>    one-sixth of the books you list are parts of series. Generally,
>    they are only such because they are part of a common universe
>    with other books, but...
    
I'm not sure that just being part of a common universe should count
as making a set of books be considered a series.  I would say you
need at least one of the following as well:
	A)  continuity of plot (either in the sequel or "prequel" sense)
	B)  continuity of characters (ditto--and this could include direct
		descendants or ancestors)
	C)  continuity of setting coupled with an overriding thematic
		conception or contrivance
In addition, the putative SECOND book in a series should have been written
within seven years of the first book in order to render the first book
unqualified to stand on its own merits as a "single book", and that second
book should meet the criteria stated above without regard to subsequent
books for continuity.

By this convention, the Foundation books and Helliconia books meet criterion C.,
the Dune books and Amber books meet criterion B., and the Lord of the Rings
books meet criterion A.  (I think.)
								Pc.

    RE .56
    
    If you have Ayn Rand Listed you should include "Atlas Shrugged"
    
    Steve

Re  Note 645.57   -< more on what it takes to make a series >-

<	A)  continuity of plot (either in the sequel or "prequel" sense)
<	B)  continuity of characters (ditto--and this could include direct
<		descendants or ancestors)
<	C)  continuity of setting coupled with an overriding thematic
<		conception or contrivance

< By this convention, the Lord of the Rings books meet criterion A.  (I think.)

I'd say that the Hobbit/LotR books meet all of the above criteria. However, The
Hobbit could stand alone, as could the Lord of the Rings. For one thing, there
is a difference in style and content between the two. The Hobbit is written
almost as though it were being told to children as a bedtime story, as indeed it
began. There are times when JRRT speaks directly to us in an aside. 

Dave

    She's only written one series (some short stories with a novel),
    and it's conveniently packaged in one fairly small paperback (_The_
    _Adventures_of_Alyx).  I would avoid her short story collections
    and one "straight" (boy, is THAT in quotes!) novel - the SF novels
    are all challenging and well-written, though.

    Buried in the long list in .-? is a book worthy of separate mention:
    "Valentina, Soul in Sapphire" by Delaney.  An interesting look into a
    possible future for the hackers among us (not me, I just write the
    stuff).  I enjoyed it mostly as a character study.

    Beverly

    	This one might not fit if the reason you're looking for a stand-
    alone novel is time-shortage, but it was one of my all time favorites.
    (I read it when it first came out in paperback.)
    	Ok, here it comes.  Now don't get too angry ...
    	How about Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard???
    	I know it's a thousand pages long, but dammit, I wish he had
    written a sequel!  I read the thing in three days.  Good stuff.
    
    	For Asimov fans, he compiles *several* collections of short
    stories.  Some of them border right on the edge of science theory
    rather than SciFi - anything from the technically almost believable
    to wacky stuff that is pure imagination.  I think most were written
    by other authors, but if he likes 'em, what the hell, I'll read
    it!
    
    	Was Foundation originally meant as a trilogy?  By the time I
    read it (I'm only 17 - *gasp*) the next two were already out.
    
    	Do read Battlefield Earth.
    
    							-John-

    re:.62
    
    No, FOUNDATION was not originally meant as a trilogy. It was intended
    as a long series of stories that would emcompass the thousand-year
    interregnum between the First and Second Empires. The material in
    the "trilogy" originally appeared as a series of stories in ASTOUNDING
    SCIENCE FICTION, and the only reason they are considered a trilogy
    is because they happened to conveniently fall into three volumes.
    
    Asimov stopped where he was because he grew tired of the series,
    not to mention that he disliked having to re-read the extant stories
    everytime he began a new one, just to keep them consistent. He picked
    the series back up only under pressure from his publisher and fans
    (much in the same way that Conan Doyle was "forced" to bring Sherlock
    Holmes back from the dead).
    
    --- jerry

    Re .63 (Jerry):
    
    >Asimov stopped where he was because he grew tired of the series,
    >not to mention that he disliked having to re-read the extant stories
    >everytime he began a new one, just to keep them consistent.
     
    Also, he had some problems with the publisher of the first three
    volumes, Gnome Press.  He picked up the series again after conditions
    were such that Doubleday could publish the remainder.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re:.64
    
    Well, yes and no. The final serial that was written and published
    in ASTOUNDING in 1949, whereas his problems with Gnome didn't
    manifest themselves until a few years later.
    
    The explanation I gave was told to me by Isaac himself, back when
    he was living in the Boston area and used to show up semi-regularly
    at NESFA meetings. I was writing a paper on him for a high school
    English class at the time, and talked to him briefly about the FT
    (part of the paper was to be a critical analysis of one of the
    subject's major works, and I picked the FT).
    
    Isaac was tickled when I told him later that I got an A+ on the
    paper. I still have that paper around somewhere, but when I read
    it again a few years back, I was embarrassed at how bad it was.
    
    --- jerry

    I haven't gone thru all the replies to this note, so excuse me if
    this is a repetition,
    
    I would recommend,
    
    1. Man Plus by Fredrik Pohl
    
    2. Double Star by Robert Heinlein (I am not sure of the title)
    
    3. Gather Darkness by Fritz Leiber
    
    Sampathgiri.

    SINCE someone mentioned Niven and Pournell, I'll add two of my favorite
    sf books.  
                      The Mote in God's Eye
                      Lucifer's Hammer
    Both by Niven and Pournelle, both single books. N. and P. are a
    great team, they come up with some of the most interesting ideas
    in *HARD* sf. but not at the exspense of good writing.

    Umm, Niven and Pournelle just finished The Moat Around Murcheson's
    Eye, I guess the moties finally broke thru the cordon....
    
    Willie

    Really?  Is it out?  
    
    _The Mote in God's Eye_ has always been one of my favorite books.
    
    				=ELB=

    Well, I do remember Jerry Pournelle mentioning that he had finished
    it (within the last month) so if it's not out yet it ought to be
    RSN!
    
    Willie

    When Dr. Pournelle announces that something is finished and when
    you can get it are frequently two different things.
    
    He announced that they had completed 'Footfall' about 4 months before
    you could get it anywhere (and I was beating the bushes).
    
    Geez, we at DEC wouldn't know wnything about this phenomenon --
    after all, V5.0 just went straight to SDC right after field testing
    (/SARCASM_MODE).
    				- HBM

    When a book is finished has got little to do with when it appears
    in the bookstores. The publishers have schedules that they
    endeavor to follow. If a book is scheduled for, say, January 1989,
    it makes no difference when it's finished (unless it's *very*
    late :-)).
    
    Besides, what is "finished"? Dotting the last "i" and crossing the
    last "t" in the manuscript? Making the last revision requested by
    the editor? Approving the galleys for the first time? Telling the
    copy editor for the nth time that dammit, you really *did* mean
    to say "octopusses" and not "octopi" in chapter 3?
    
    Depending on which one of those Pournelle meant, it could be anywhere
    from four months to a year and a half before the book hits the stores.
    
    --- jerry

    A book I read recently - and LOVED was by a fairly new author named
    W.T. Quick.  It's called "Dreams of Flesh and Sand".  It's kind
    of a cross between a bladerunner futuristic world, and the analogs
    to real life that "people" experience when they enter the computer
    realm - like Tron only much better.
    
    Lots of suspense, and very few people do what you expect them to.
    
    -Jody
    

    "Becoming Alien" by Rebecca Ore

    In my quest for summer reading, I was referred to this note, and did my
    usual bit -- collating it into a single list (yer're welcome, Len). 
    
    The big find seems to be Robinson... I'll have to go look for a topic
    devoted to this new (to me) author.
    
    Thanks for the referral and recommendations.
    
    - Hoyt

In "mentions" then alpha order, e.g. "Mote" got three mentions.
    
    3    Niven and Pournelle "The Mote in God's Eye"
    3    Robinson "Star Dancer"

    2    Asimov "Pebble In The Sky"
    2    Bear "Eon"
    2    Brin "The Postman"
    2    Delaney "Valentina, Soul in Sapphire" 
    2    Haldeman "The Forever War"
    2    Heinlein "Double Star"
    2    Heinlein "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress"
    2    Heinlein "Have Space Suit Will Travel".
    2    Heinlein "Citizen Of The Galaxy"
    2    Miller "A Canticle for Liebowitz"
    2    Niven and Pournelle "Lucifer's Hammer" 
    2    Robinson "Mindkiller"
    2    Robinson "Telempath"
    2    Zelazny "Lord of Light"

    1    Anderson "Avatar"
    1    Anthony "Macroscope" 
    1    Asimov "The Currents of Space"
    1    Asimov "The Stars, Like Dust" 
    1    Asimov "The Gods Themselves" 
    1    Asimov "The End of Eternity"
    1    Asire "Twilight's Kingdoms" 
    1    Attanasio "In Other Worlds"
    1    Benford "Against Infinity"
    1    Bester "The Demolished Man"
    1    Bester "The Computer Connection" 
    1    Bester "The Stars My Destination" 
    1    Blish "Cities In Flight"
    1    Bova "Kinsman"
    1    Brackett "The Long Tomorrow"
    1    Brin "The Practice Effect"
    1    Brunner "Stand on Zanzibar"
    1    Brunner "The Shockwave Rider"
    1    Brunner "The Sheep Look Up"
    1    Bryant "Phoenix Without Ashes"
    1    Bujold "Shards Of Honor" 
    1    Card "Ender's Game" 
    1    Chalker "Dancers in the Afterglow"
    1    Chalker "The Devil Will Drag You Under"
    1    Clarke "A Fall Of Moondust"
    1    Clarke "Childhood's End" 
    1    Clarke "Rendevous with Rama" 
    1    Clarke "Songs of Distant Earth"
    1    Clarke "The City and the Stars"
    1    Clarke "The Songs Of Distant Earth"
    1    Clarke "The Deep Range" 
    1    Davidson "Masters of the maze" 
    1    Delaney "Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand"
    1    Deleney "Nova"
    1    Dick "A Scanner Darkly" 
    1    Dick "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"
    1    Dick "Man in a High Castle" 
    1    Feist and Wurts "Daughter of the Empire" 
    1    Forward "Flight of the Dragonfly"
    1    Gentle "Golden Witchbreed"
    1    Gibson "Burning Chrome" 
    1    Greenland "The Hour of the Thin Ox"
    1    Haldeman "Dealing in Futures" 
    1    Hambly "Dragonsbane" 
    1    Harness "The Paradox Men"
    1    Harrison "Star Smashers Of Galaxy Rangers"
    1    Heinlein "Starman Jones"
    1    Heinlein "The Day After Tomorrow"
    1    Heinlein "Tunnel In The Sky"
    1    Heinlein "The Star Beast" 
    1    Heinlein "Space Cadet"
    1    Heinlein "I Will Fear No Evil"
    1    Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
    1    Heinlein "Friday"
    1    Heinlein "Orphans Of The Sky"
    1    Heinlein "The Door Into Summer"
    1    Heinlein "The Rolling Stones"
    1    Heinlein "Glory Road"
    1    Heinlein "Rocket Ship Galileo"
    1    Heinlein "The Puppet Masters"
    1    Hubbard "Battlefield Earth" 
    1    Jacques "Redwall"
    1    Kapp "The Chaos Weapon" 
    1    Kapp "The Survival Game"
    1    Kingsbury "Geta"
    1    Knight "C.V. [Sea Venture]"
    1    Kushner "Swordspoint"
    1    LeGuin "Always Coming Home"
    1    LeGuin "The Left Hand of Darkness"
    1    LeGuin "The Disposessed" 
    1    Leiber "Gather Darkness" 
    1    Martin "Tuf Voyaging"
    1    McCaffery "The Ship Who Sang" 
    1    Niven "A Gift From Earth"
    1    Niven "Protector"
    1    Niven "The Long Arm Of Gil Hamilton"
    1    Niven "The Integral Trees"
    1    Niven and Pournelle "Footfall" 
    1    Niven and Pournelle and Barnes "Dream Park"
    1    Nourse "Mercy Men" 
    1    Ore "Becoming Alien" 
    1    Palmer "Emergence"
    1    Piper "The Cosmic Computer"
    1    Pohl "Man Plus" 
    1    Pournelle "Exiles To Glory"
    1    Pournelle "Oath Of Fealty"
    1    Pournelle "Footfall"
    1    Pournelle "King David's Spaceship"
    1    Quick "Dreams of Flesh and Sand" 
    1    Rand "Anthem"
    1    Rand "Atlas Shrugged"
    1    Robinson "The Memory of Whiteness"
    1    Sheckley "The Journey Of Joenes"
    1    Smith "Gray Lensman" 
    1    Smith "Norstrailia" 
    1    Smith "The Complete Venus Equilateral"
    1    Stapleton "The End Of Time" 
    1    Stasheff "A Wizard In Bedlam"
    1    Stewart "Earth Abides"
    1    Stoutenburg "Out There"
    1    Varley "Millennium"
    1    Vinge "The Peace War"
    1    Wyndham "The Day Of The Triffids"
    1    Zahn "Spinneret"

        re .76 - if you read and like the Ayn Rand books (or any
        Rand), check out the Objectivist conference at
        ELRIC::OBJECTIVISM.