Conference noted::sf

    Most of what I can think of would be Fantasy and religion, not
    specificly SF and Christianity.
    
    The Camber Series by Katherine Kurtz is excellent for magic vs
    Christianity (is either evil?).  Good characters and plot.
    
    Piers Anthony's Tarot series deals with religion, but probably
    not in the way you have in mind.

    Religion hasn't been overlooked in SF.  Many SF stories deal either
    directly with it or use it as a backdrop or tool for the players.
    
    I feel religion lends itself very well to the themes of SF.
    Star Trek even did it.  In the SF universe one can create fantastic
    beings, worlds, natural (and un-natural) phenomena, etc.  To enjoy
    SF stories the reader accepts a basic premise to build his imagination
    on.  A good example is Moorcocks' BEHOLD THE MAN!; one must accept
    time travel as a reality to enter the main (basic religious beliefs)
    theme of the story.  (Just accepting time travel did not prepare
    me for this story.)
    
    Other books I've read & recommend:
    
    Zelazny        LORD OF LIGHT, CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS
    Miller, W.M.   A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ
    Blish          A CASE OF CONSCIENCE
    
    Not being sure how you mean 'blend', there's stories about Man creating
    life (FRANKENSTEIN), modifying life (ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU and Farmer's
    'Pocket Universe' stories ((which also set up a being as a god in
    a private universe)), delaying Judgement Day (Zelazny's THIS IMMORTAL,
    Phillips' THE INVOLUNTARY IMMORTALS, Gunn's THE IMMORTALS), stories
    in which religion is put aside (Farmer's 'Riverworld', in which
    people whose religions promise afterlife get one a bit different
    than advertised, who now must join the 'Church of the Second Chance'
    to help them achieve final redemption), and etc.
    
    All the way down to stories like Knight's A FOR ANYTHING and Blish
    & Loundes ' THE DUPLICATED MAN:  Did the duplicates have a soul?
    
    Enough for now, before I lose network path....
    
    				Don ICEMAN::Rudman

    Re .0
    
    C. S. Lewis is perhaps known to you as a Christian lay-theologian.
    He also wrote a trilogy of stories which are science fiction or
    fantasy depending on your theology.  Thus they are perhaps the most
    thorough blend around.  The three books are:
    
    	Out of the Silent Planet
    	Perelandra
    	That Hideous Strength
    
    Are SF and religion incompatible?  No, though some people may regard
    some combinations as impossible.  If you thoroughly disbelieve in
    the supernatural, any story that brings the supernatural on stage
    must be a fantasy, whether the supernatural is elves, magic, or
    God.
    
    On the other hand, an SF story (like "Canticle of Leibowitz" mentioned
    earlier, by Walter Miller) can use religious people, institutions,
    and issues without necessarily bringing in any overt supernatural
    events.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    You beat me to it, Earl! For more on C. S. Lewis, see note 94 and
    replies. 
    
    I've read a great many SF stories that set up organized religions
    as targets for the author to shoot down - after-the-holocaust stories
    where a sort of Dark-Ages church rules peoples' lives, stories where
    technology itself becomes the object of worship without understanding,
    and so forth. These can lead to some interesting questions about
    the nature of faith; sometimes that's even what the author intended,
    though often the author is just church-bashing.
    
    There are all sorts of short stories with strong religious themes,
    but I'm never good at recalling titles and authors. I'd be surprised
    if there wasn't an anthology or two, though. Jerry?
    
    -b

     I whole-heartedly agree with the suggestion that you read Katherine
    Kurtz' Camber Trilogy.  As a non-Christian, but very much a believer,
    I found that Ms. Kurtz was able to clearly express the wonder and
    awe that a person with faith in God can feel.  It gave me a much
    broader view of the Christian church than I would have expected
    in a work of this type.  
    
    If you are really open-minded, try reading Steven Brust's novel
    "To Reign In Hell".  A very different approach to the fallen angel
    theme and the infallibility of God.  

  Try "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke.  It "explains" the star of Bethlehem.

  JP

    James Blish had a long-standing interest in religion and worked
    it into both SF and fantasy.  "A Case of Conscience" is centered
    on religious themes, and is much concerned with the doings of God
    and Satan, but remains SF because nothing *definitely* supernatural
    happens in the story.
    
    "The Star Dwellers" and "Journey to the Heart Stars" involve the
    relations of humanity with creatures made of high-energy plasma.
    They look like blobs of crimson light, prefer to live in nebulae
    like the Great Nebula in Orion, where new stars are forming, and
    appear to be strictly immortal.  They are formed in the same processes
    that create stars.  Humanity dubs them "angels" and the reader gets
    the increasingly eerie feeling that the name is VERY appropriate.
    
    "Black Easter" and "The Day After Judgement" are (I sincerely believe)
    fantasy, about a modern-day black magician releasing several major
    demons from hell and precipitating Armageddon.  Hell appears bodily
    on Earth in, of course, Death Valley, in a perfect rendition of
    Dante's Inferno.  (Someone remarks about demons having no taste,
    but then you wouldn't expect them to.)  There follows a blacky humorous
    confrontation of the U. S. Army vs. the Powers of Hell.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    There are two books by a woman named Zena (I think) Henderson about
    some refugees from a different star that come to earth that combine
    SF and religon in a very beautiful fashion. The one title I can
    remember is "The People No Diferent Flesh"
    
    A fantasy book that does pretty well is Trio for Lute (author
    unremembered). 
    
    There are some authors that have a strongly anti-religous bias,
    Heinlein and Hogan come to mind, but neither science fiction nor
    fantasy is necessarily pro or anti any religion. 
    
    Bonnie

  Bonnie, I don't know that I'd call Heinlein anti-religious.  He does seem
  to get peeved by religions that claim to own the only path to God.

  Heinlein wrote "Revolt In 2100" (original title was "If This Goes On," I
  think) about the establishment of a theocracy in the U.S.

  JP

    	SF owes MUCH to religion (particularly Christian) for its concepts,
    from beings who act/seem like God, to events in the Bible being
    conjectured as the actions of aliens from other worlds (Remember THE
    TWILIGHT ZONE episode where an alien man and woman crashland on
    a strange, uninhabited planet - and you later learn they are on Earth,
    and their names are Adam and Eve).
    
    	In Roger Zelazny's beautiful, almost poetic short story, FOR
    A BREATH I TARRY, two highly advanced supercomputers battle each
    other for the control of Earth - one is named Solcom, and it dwells
    in Earth orbit, while Divcom dwells deep beneath the surface, and
    is always trying to thwart Solcom's authority, destroying his works
    (Guess who's being paralleled here).
    	During the course of the story, a robot servant of Solcom's -
    Frost - wants to learn about man (gain knowledge), and as a result
    becomes a man and is later paired up with Beta, another of Solcom's
    robots, who is made into a woman, and they go on to be the new Adam
    and Eve of Earth; and during this time Frost is "tempted" by a servant
    of Divcom's, all in a test between Solcom and Divcom to see what
    Frost will do and whom will he serve (The trials of Job). 
    	
    	In the end - in a very powerful statement once you realize what
    has happened - Frost and Beta have overcome their "gods" and become
    masters of their own world.  They are the new "gods".  To me, this
    sounds very Nietchze (or Marxian, as Karl Marx believed that man
    was superior to God).
                         
    	Larry
    

    Re .8
    
    "A Trio for Lute" is a trilogy by R. A. MacAvoy (see note 310).
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    As a Christian, I have always wondered about the place that aliens,
    if they exist, have in God's plans. This subject has sometimes been
    addressed in SF.
    
    One movie, I can't remember the name, showed a scientist communicating
    with intellengence on Mars (?). It turns out, after they begin to
    understand each other, that Christ was incarnent on Mars
    and teaching the same ideas as when He was here on Earth.
    
    (Can anyone remember the name of this movie? Another Clue: they
    were able to establish contact after the scientist's son suggested
    that they send the value of PI.)
    
    Of course, This question is also the theme of C.S. Lewis' trilogy.
    In the first book the aliens had fallen from grace, but were still
    under the Law. In the second, a new race of ``people'' on Venus
    avoided falling in the first place.
    
    David.

    re .10
    
    Heinlein's "Job" struck me as being anti religious and rather
    angry at that. I don't think that any of the rest of his 
    writings could be so classified.

    re .13:
    
    > As a Christian, I have always wondered about the place that aliens,
    > if they exist, have in God's plans. 
    
    replace "alien" with "American Indian" and you have the dilemma
    faced by the Europeans upon discovering the "New World".
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    
      
    

    	In one of Ray Bradbury's stories in THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES,
    a group of priests arrived on Mars in order to continue the faith
    on this world, to both the Earth colonists and any Martian natives.
    
    	They came upon these luminous Martians, whom they felt needed
    to be spiritually "cleansed" of sinand taught Christianity.  One of
    the priests even built a luminous globe to symbolize Christ to the
    aliens, and when one of the priests protested, the father explained
    "Would we have recognized Him if He came to us as an octopus?"
    
    	As it turned out, the Martians didn't need the priests' help,
    as they were energy beings who once had physical bodies, but had
    somehow developed beyond these bodies to become pure thought, clean
    of all wordly temptation through their own efforts.
                                                       
    	There was another of Bradbury's Mars stories (but not connected
    with the CHRONICLES), which had some Earth astronauts discover that
    Christ was preaching among the native Martians.
    
    	This leads me to wonder if Jesus Christ has, in reality, ever
    appeared on other worlds in those aliens' image to "save" them,
    or is that too much of an ethnocentric/Christian attitude?
    
    	Larry
                                                                       

    re .16
    Speaking as a Christian here out of my own personal beliefs...
    
    God created the universe and all that is in it. He created the
    human race and sent His son to us to teach us and redeem us.
    
    Since he also created the other worlds and their populations
    they are also his children. If the same reasons that existed
    for the Son of God to be born on earth exist on other worlds
    then God's son (or daughter, or..) would be born on that world
    also.
    
    I see no reason why this one world is any more special or in
    need of God's love than anyother. If a person believes that
    Jesus came here then it should logically follow that He came
    to all peoples in the universe.
    
    Bonnie

    
    The Messiah Choice (?) by Chalker (?).
    
    Im not sure of name or author, but it was about a supercomputer
    that emulated Satan.  A lot of interesting parallels are drawn between
    hi-tech and mysticism.  
    
    /Dan

    re .17  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Christians consider
    Earth as the only populated planet in the Universe?
    
    No offense just curiouse
    
    Steve

    
    	More years ago than I care to remember I read a short story
    that I think was titled 'The Man'.  The plot was basically that
    a starship lands on a planet and the captain expects that his arrival
    should be the biggest event in the planet's history, but he's been
    upstaged by a man who appeared and healed the sick and taught of
    a peaceful way of life and then departed.  The captain became obsessed
    with meeting this man, the implication being that he was Christ,
    and took off to try to catch him on the next planet.
    
    	I've found that religion of many forms has been a large part
    of many SF stories.  It makes sense since religion has been the
    largest force in the shaping of history on this planet, so why not
    think of its continuing into those worlds created in science fiction?
    
    	Klaes
    

    Believing Mankind to be the only intelligence in the universe 
    (excepting biblical personages) is a basic human conceit 
    which transcends religion.  oler Christians I have spoken to fall
    into this category; I have'nt posed the question to the younger
    generation.  Yet.
    
    Thanks for mentioning "For a Breath I Tarry", Larry, I missed it.
    Also Bonnie?, for The People.  More stories I, too, reccommend.
    After reading the subsequent replies I see I have some reading to
    do; it is obvious I'm not as voracious a reader as I once was.
                                     
    						Don

    re.19
    I suspose some Christians may believe that the Earth is the only
    polpulated planet. It's not necessary to believ that to be
    a Christian in any church I ever attended.
    Bonnie 

    re .19
    
    It is clear in the Bible that Man is not the only creature that
    God created with intelligence. Angels, for one, were created by God 
    to serve him. Other creatures are also mentioned in Revelations.
    
    We should not limit the God who created the universe to one small
    planet. He was (and still is) able to create as many planets as
    He desired for His own reasons.
    
    ---------

    A SF author who blends her Christianity and her work is Madeleine
    l'Engle. (_A Wrinkle in Time_, _A Wind in the Door_ and _A Swiftly
    Tilting Planet_ to name a few.)
    
    Of course, in the Fantasy area, don't forget C.S. Lewis' Narnia
    books.

    David.

    
    	Any religion founded out of a Book which has "evening and morning,
    the first day" when the Sun wasn't invented until the 4th day HAS
    to be compatible with science fiction.
    
    	Blish comes first to mind, and we shouldn't overlook "Cities
    in Flight" which has a straightforward theory about the place of
    science fiction in the development of religion.
    
    	Then there's the Dorsai series of Gordon Dickson.  I am
    anti-Puritan to the point of malice, but he made me re-think the
    whole question with his presentation of the 'Friendlies.'
    
    	But the book which deals with religion 'par excellence' is,
    of course, DUNE.  
    
    	And has everyone already read the new (posthumous) Sturgeon?
    It's called GODBODY and requires its own note to discuss.  I loved
    it and wept.  But I often do that reading Sturgeon....
    
    

    ok here's my 2 cents worth, i don't recall anyone mentioning frank
    herburt's "the jesus incident" i think it was part of a trilogy
    where mankind was designing artifical conscienceness in a spaceship
    heading for the stars (the safest way to do it) the ship belives
    its God plus does some godlike things that make everything alittle
    muddled.  in one of the books the ship takes a character back in
    time to the crucifixion of jesus which was strange because in the
    crowd there were people that instantaously knew that character didn't
    belong there it was like all the forces of good and evil were there
    incognitio.
      another author i like for combining sf and belief is p.k. dick
    in some of his stories he has what is called "the mercer box".
    its this device with handles that when you hold the handles
    you become a man climbing a hill...sorry you beieve your this man
    climbing this hill and as you go on it becomes more and more dificult
    plus you get rocks thrown at you...all in all millions of people
    were doing it it seemed to purge your spirit. on a lighter note
    in a novel he did "the galactic pot-healer" you could sit down in
    a booth ask an important question and get an answer from any major
    religion. one more novel "man in a high castle " has alot of taoist
    beliefs.
     also now that i think of it cordwander smith has a religion based
    on the mayrtdom of the doggirl joan , what is interesting that in
    the far furture man don't believe much of anything but the humans
    made from animal genes would honor joan, and ask if you knew about
    "the sign of the fish"refering to christianity.

Most of the novels of R. A. Lafferty have an implicit Christian orientation,
although heavily overlaid with Jungian psychology.  It's interesting that
Lafferty also seems to have in for some of the "modernist" Christian thinkers
like Teilhard de Chardin: the idea of merger into a cosmic "oversoul" is often
the butt of Lafferty's satire and derision.  Read "Fourth Mansions" and go on
from there.

Miller's "Canticle for Leibowitz" (already mentioned by several people) is
probably the best science fiction book written from a Christian perspective
(although it's not afraid to poke fun at some of the foibles of Catholicism).
It's also one of the best science fiction novels written PERIOD so don't miss
it.

Philip Jose Farmer's "Night of Light" is, if my memory serves me, about a
priest who goes to another planet and ends up becoming an incarnation of one
of its gods for the duration of a major religious festival.  Strange but good.

George Stewart's "Earth Abides" is about how humanity falls back from the
remnants of civilization into tribal superstition and barbarism in the course
of the first few generations after a catastrophic plague.  Much of the imagery
is very Biblical, especially invoking the Book of Ecclesiastes, and the novel
has a strong cumulative impact if you stick with it.

There are probably more Christian writers in conventional "fantasy" literature
than in "science fiction", with names such as George MacDonald, C. S. Lewis,
J. R. R. Tolkien, and Charles Williams in the first echelon.

    In addition to some of the previously mentioned works, I
    can think of some of the following:
    
    Roger Zelazny's "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" (this story is
    	*must* reading for any discussion about religion in sf)
    Poul Anderson's "The Problem of Pain"
    Lester del Rey's "For I Am a Jealous People"
    Anthony Boucher's "The Quest for St. Aquin"
    Fritz Leiber's GATHER DARKNESS
    
    Michael Bishop wrote one novella and one novel that, though
    they aren't advertised as such, are meant to be set in the same
    universe as A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ, dealing with results of
    the "creation" in ACFL of a race of men without original sin.
    The novella is "The White Otters of Childhood" and the novel
    is AND STRANGE AT ECBATAN THE TREES (aka BENEATH THE SHATTERED
    MOONS). While I admire Bishop as a writer, and think "Otters"
    is a brilliant story, neither work really deals satisfactorily
    with the idea.
    
    Roger Elwood had a strong Christian bias and he edited an
    anthology of religious sf entitled STRANGE GODS. Another one
    I know of off-hand is OTHER WORLDS, OTHER GODS, edited by
    Mayo Mohs.
    
    One aspect of Christianity not mentioned yet has spawned a
    rather esoteric corner of the sf field. There are a number of
    what one might refer to as religious publishers that have
    released Christian-oriented science fiction and fantasy. Occa-
    sionally, they are of the type such as APOSTLE FROM SPACE
    (author forgotten, published by Logos Books), or a modern
    sequel cum re-write (title and author forgotten) of Bunyan's
    PILGRIM'S PROGRESS.
    	The bulk of this corner of the field, though, is what a
    friend of mine referred to as "Tribulation sf", dealing with
    the Endtimes and other assorted apocalyptic visions. I have a
    moderately-sized collection of this sort of thing (I like to
    collect it for its esotericness), but it's not that accessible
    right now (part of my collection --- including this stuff ---
    is still at my mother's house).
    
    If you want to move into the realm of fantasy, there are various
    books by Charles Williams, as well as an epic poem trilogy by
    Calvin Miller (THE SINGER; THE SONG; forget the third title),
    and others.
    
    --- jerry

    	It has been said that Science Fiction is modern day *mythology*,
    and myths are based in religion (think about all those stories with
    beings who were like gods).
    
    	Larry
    

    Way back around 15-19 on Christianity requiring mankind as the only
    intelligence in the universe... 
    
    	Yes, I too have run across this arguement by the devout, on
    	why Man should a) stop wasting time/money on space and CETI
    	and b) there can be no such thing as UFO's or ET's because
    	Man is made in God's image (which is just like us).
    
    The arguments have often come from "those who know".
    
    Dwight
    

re: .29
>    and myths are based in religion (think about all those stories with

not to get too technical, but i would say that religion has mythology as
one of its bases rather than the other way around...there are some religions
that are heavily myth-oriented (where myth could be defined as "universal
stories", or anhistorical tales with universal themes and archetypal
characters), while others are more oriented to ethics/morality,
ontology/philosophy, or prophecy/historicity...most religions have some
flavor of all of these, although one or two usually dominate

    Re .19, .30, et al
    
    About Christianity and ETs:  Christianity is very far from being
    a monolithic structure, so there is no one "Christian" opinion about
    the possibility of intelligent ETs.  In the old BIBLE conference
    (not the current one), we debated this point, and yes, there were
    some folk who thought aliens theologically impossible.  There were
    others who didn't.  Me, for instance.  C. S. Lewis wrote a non-fiction
    article about this subject, as well as the aforementioned SF/fantasy
    trilogy.  In both places, he puts forward the opinion that aliens
    are entirely possible.  He just hoped that, if we met them, they'd
    be more advanced than we, because otherwise we'd probably be rotten
    to them, the way we've been to primitive humans.  Lewis is a rather
    influential writer in many sections of English-speaking Christendom,
    so his views may be widely held.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	Something tells me that those Christians who do not believe
    that other beings exist in the Universe because the Bible "says
    so", would still not believe it even if some alien race made itself
    known to humanity - they would probably consider them a hoax (just
    as the Flat Earth Society believes that all those NASA photographs
    of a spherical Earth in space are a hoax), would still ignore the
    facts because it grinds against their beliefs - such as those clergymen
    who would not look through Galileo's telescope at Jupiter's moons,
    because they just could NOT exist, or Creationists disregarding
    evolution because its facts go against theirs - or, worst of all,
    would consider the aliens to be demons - as Medieval theologians
    disregarded fossils as works of the Devil to confuse "true" Christians.
                                                             
    	I wouldn't be surprised if the reason we have yet to encounter
    any other intelligent races is because they are waiting for us to
    stop being so superstitious with our religions.
                                                   
    	Larry
    

    Re .33:
    
    I thought the Flat Earth Society was not serious about the Earth being
    flat (the purpose being a more serious philosophical comment on
    beliefs).  Perhaps you are thinking of more lunatic groups?
    
    
    				-- edp 

    	Well, if they are joking around, the way they present themselves
    certainly doesn't appear to be humorous.
    
    	Larry
    

    Sorry about 448.0, my inexperience at using Notes is showing!
    
    Some really terrific info here.  I will take some of your suggestions
    on material to read. One comment about Katherine Kurtz, I read the
    first of her books, in the series, Deryni Rising, I think it was,
    and found it to be a bit of a disappointment. The characters seemed
    one dimensional, which is something I can't stand in a book. 
    Characterization is foremost to me in any literary work. Are the
    Camber books themselves any better?  I will definitely read Canticle.
    It's nice to know there are other Christians out there that enjoy
    reading SF. I haven't met many recently.  One of the reasons I posed
    the question in the first place is that I have written a book that
    I wasn't really sure had any place out there. It is a story of
    Christians in a future society that have to wrestle with the duties
    of Christians in the "universe" as opposed to the world.  We are
    called to be "in, but not of the world." That can be extended to
    be "in, but not of the universe."  There is no mysticism in this
    book, it's just about real people in a more technologically advanced
    society. I submitted it to DAW, but, of course it was rejected.
    I have not submitted anywhere else because of questions I had as
    to whether it is a "right" subject for SF readers. If the writing
    is bad, which I also suspect is true, I can work on that, but if
    the story is not right, well... The trouble is you just don't learn
    anything from a form rejection.  I am also glad that this question
    sparked so much discussion. I was fully prepared to have no one
    respond at all. Thanks for your input!
    
    							Pat
    

    re:.36
    
    Perhaps I should point out that I'm not a Christian, at least
    not a practicing one (but neither am I an anti-Christian). A
    good story is a good story is a good story, whether it espouses
    Christian values and ideas or not. Many of the books from the
    Christian specialty publishers that I mentioned earlier I
    collect for reasons of esotericness.
    
    You might want to try submitting your novel to one of these
    Christian specialty publishers. From them you may get an
    honest opinion of the work unclouded by possible ideological
    prejudices. I couldn't give you a list of such publishers
    off-hand, but a good library reference department may be
    able to help you find some. Or someone at a Christian book-
    store, such as Logos (if there's one in your area) may be
    able to help.
    
    --- jerry

    I scanned through this rapidly, and I may have missed:
    
    "The Quest for Saint Aquin," by Anthony Boucher,
    and an Isaac Asimov short in _I, Robot_, where a utility robot starts
    a new religion (patently based on a crude form of Islam) worshipping
    a power tube.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    I didn't see "INFERNO" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.
    Based loosely on the settings in Dante's Inferno, this book
    features a science fiction writer in Hell.  A classic.
    
    Tom
    
    
    

oops!  forgot Keith Roberts' "Pavane" and Lester del Rey's "The
Eleventh Commandment"...

    <flame on>
    
    	paraphrase - ...glad to see there are Christians who read
    		     (or write) science fiction...
    
    	Is that anything like 'Christians have finally become politically
    	active' ??
    
    	A lot of my (Christian) friends who are avid SF readers would
    	probably have some fairly harsh, unChristian, words for you.
    
    	Clean up your act.  
    
    <flame off>
    
    Alas, I was not so much incensed as annoyed at the sentiment implied.
    In general I really don't care about Christians, et al... ;})
    
    Dwight (ex-crucifer)

    RE .42
    
    	Sorry, didn't realize there would be anyone out there so sensitive
    	as to take offense.
    
    	The position I'm coming from is that no one I know in my church
    	is an SF reader. The SF readers I do know are either atheists
    	or agnostics. That's all.  Please accept my humble apologies.
    
    	Oh, and it is nothing like 'Christians have finally become
    	politically active.
    
    	Lighten up.
    
    	pat

    	One of the first services of the new year at my church was selected
    readings from Science Fiction works (including Songs From Distant
    Earth, Contact, A short by Silverberg and The Fate of the Earth). 
    Different views of earths future were presented and the the ways
    we could avoid them or make them come true were discussed.  
    
    	The program was so successful, that those of us who participated
    in the program were asked to present the program again to a nearby
    sister church.
    
    	re: Katherine Kurtz.  Do read her other books.  I agree that
    Deryni rising lacks the rich characterization of her later novels,
    but it was her first novel and she grows throughout that first trilogy.
    I don't really think she hits her stride until the Camber books,
    but they are Great! And the second trilogy dealing with characters
    in the first trilogy (got that? :-)) continues the trend.
                         
    tlh
    
    

    RE. 44
    
    	Thanks, Tracey,
    		I'll press on with the K. Kurtz novels.
    	Your experience with the SF service sounds neat. Thanks for
    passing it on.
    
    	pat.

    re .43 and previous, I think those of us who are both Christian
    and love SF may get a bit touchy at times. After all we get
    the same response from some people in both groups "how can you
    possibly read/believe *that*.....:-)

    	I remember a book-burning in the Midwest United States about
    six years ago, where so-called "bad" books were burned; among the
    types burned were Science Fiction novels - the Protestant group
    who held the burning stated that SF books should be destroyed because
    they "harbor unrealistic and evil ideas."  (This was from TIME
    Magazine).
    
    	That kind of ignorant censorship is unpleasant and dangerous.
    
    	Larry
    

    Re .47, earlier:
    
    There's a general problem: the bad apples spoil the barrel.  It's
    perfectly true that the majority of SF readers are Christian, and
    some active Christian writers are SF authors.  But it's _so_ easy
    to take a small group such as the type that Larry mentions and expand
    it to include the whole set.
    
    I'm certain that anyone burning an SF book for harboring "...evil
    ideas" probably would also burn _Paradise Lost_ by John Milton,
    in which the Devil is a hero ....
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Re .48:
    
        No flames, no criticism, I just want to know where you got the
    information for the statement "It's perfectly true that the majority
    of SF readers are Christian."
    
    ASP

    I'm Jewish, and this lengthy discussion has got me wondering, does
    anyone know of any Jewish science fiction (not Jewish authors, Jewish
    themes)?

    .49
    I think what .48 meant was something in the nature of -
    a large number of Westerners expecially Americans - who are
    the major readers of SF, are at least nominally Christian,  or
    come from Christian belief structures. A fairly small percentage
    are actively non Christian - to the extent that they are hostile
    to Chrtianity. It is there ffor not unreasonable to assume that
    a majority of SF readers are either actively Christian, are non
    practicing but not anti Christian, are active or passive members
    of another faith (such as Judisim) and are thus at least sympathetic
    to a religious point of view in a story even if it might not be
    their own ( as a Christian might be to a B'hai or Jewish point of
    view) or are neutral on the subject. Those who are anti Christian
    expecially to the point of hostility should be in the minority.

    I think the statement in .48 amounted to a not unreasonable gut
    feel.
    
    Bonnie

    re .50
    The only example I can think of is the character Nathan Brazil
    who (among other things) was a Jewish rabbi - in the Well World
    books by Jack Chalker. But there must be others.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s I appologize for any weird words or characters in this and
    the previous note. My phone link keeps inserting them and I get
    tired of deleting, editing etc. after once or twice.

    RE: .50
    
    (It took the weekend to jog my memory about this book. I woke up
    at 3 a.m. Sunday morning - jotted down the title, and went back
    to sleep :-)).
    
    There's a very good collection of "Jewish themes" sf, entitled
    "WANDERING STARS," and edited, I believe, by Jack Dann. It was at
    one time an SFBC selection, and if memory serves, was also issued
    as a paperback.
    
    Fred

    re .48, .49, .51
    
    Ah, The Fingers!  What I meant to say that one could most probably
    assume that the majority of SF readers are [nominally] Christian;
    just as in .51.  The point I was endeavoring to make is that a small
    but often vocal minority might give the _appearance)_ of speaking
    for all of a group, when the actuality might be quite different.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Do atheists read SF?
    
    re .39:  QoSA--I forgot it too....
    re .40: INFERNO a classic?  Pardon me if I disagree.
    re .41: PAVANE (which I didn't link to religion) is on my "Best"
            list, high up.  I believe it was recently re-issued.
    re .47: PARADISE LOST raises the question: If Lucifer's rebellion
            had succeeded, how would Heaven (and Earth) been affected?
            Would HEROES IN HELL be titled HEROS IN HEAVEN? :-)

    				Don ICEMAN::Rudman

    I think someone had better start distinguishing between
     
    'Christian'
    
    and
    
    'Religious'
    
    because they are not interchangeable words.
    
	
    I know plenty of people whose parents were christian, but who
    personally dont give a hoot about religion.  They are not
    antagonistic, but indifferent (athiest, agnostic, you pick it).
    
    I think there may be a question floating around out there as to
    whether *religious* christianity conflicts with the theme and content
    of much of science ficiton, which certainly contains no shortage
    of sex, violence, profanity and other stuff that would surely have
    gotten the lot of it banned in a different time.
    
    Personally, I love stories that explain the basis of modern religious
    beliefs as (alien/computer/pagan god/immortal man/time machine)
    generated.  One of my favorites WAS the Well of Souls series.  I
    think it would be sad if anyone refused or was not allowed to read
    those books because they suggest that God is a "spunky little Jew
    with a scraggly beard who smokes too much".  Does such pressure
    exist?
    
    /Dan (a distant descendant of Nathan Brazil)

    Re .56:
    
    Depends upon what limits you put on "religiousness."  There's plenty
    of sex, violence, etc. in the Bible, after all [even Jesus Himself
    drove the moneychangers out of the temple, and He didn't do so in
    a Chevrolet].  
    
    "Religious," alas, is often equated with "religiously intolerant."
     It's the "ten percent" I alluded to in a previous response.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Re .56
    
    When you specify "religious Christianity," what other kind of
    Christianity are you contrasting it to?  Just curious.
    
    Oh yes, there are certainly people who would pressure other people
    not to read "Well of Souls" on religious grounds.  On the flip side,
    Ursula LeGuin was startled to get lots of fan letters about her
    Earthsea trilogy from Christian ministers.  She herself isn't a
    Christian and hadn't thought the stories would be particularly
    appealing to such folk.  Surprise!
    
    A friend of mine recently had a visit from the minister and his
    wife in the church she has recently started attending.  They made
    polite chit-chat for a bit, but the conversation really took off
    when they discovered that they were both fond of fantasy role playing,
    the minister was a Dungeon Master in a D&D game, and so was the
    eldest deacon.  Then they started talking about comic books...
    
    "Christianity" is an awful broad framework.
    
    To shift religions, "Childhood's End," by Arthur C. Clarke, is a
    science-fictionalized rendition of Buddhism and is, I think, his
    most dramatically powerful novel.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	In regards to Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END, he had the Overlords
    abolish all religions except for a "watered-down" form of Buddhism;
    this is no doubt due to Clarke's living in Sri Lanka all these years.
    
    	In reality, I seriously doubt that many people would give up
    their religion - regardless of any non-Supreme Being Authority -
    without one heck of a fight!	
    
    	And don't forget what the Overlords looked like!
    
    	Larry
                                   

    It is unfortunate people must pigeonhole others by labling them.
    Seems when a group is labled it puts defined limits around them.
    Is a Christian the same as a Born-again Christian?  Obviously not,
    since there is a distinction.  I thought "Christian" meant someone
    who follows/believes the teachings of Christ (w/subsets, of course).
    The generic "Christians" in .0 I thought referred to those who have
    christian beliefs of whom was posed the question "Can you read SF
    which has Christian or anti-Christian themes?".  (I'll go back &
    reread it to be sure.)  
    
    I've found SF which deals with "religious" themes the most
    thought-provoking, because there already exists detailed 
    "reference" Books on the subject, and most of us have had more
    "religious" training than "outer space" training during our
    "formative" years.  (I read BEHOLD THE MAN in my teens; real radical.)

    (I hope I have not touched upon any religious sore spot, as I promised
    myself a long time ago I would avoid discussions which deal with
    peoples basic religious beliefs.  Heaven forbid :-) I should shake
    anyone's True Beliefs; usually there's a stone wall there anyway.
    And please, no comments about SOAPBOX, remember what I said about
    pigeonholing.)
    
					Don

Re .59

Yes, I very much doubt that people would give up religion that easily.  As I 
recall, the way the Overlords abolished it was to give humanity a device that 
let them view the past, for general historical research.  Since Clarke is 
writing the story, the device quickly discovers that none of the founders of 
world religions had really worked any of the miracles attributed to them.

There are two obvious objections.  One is that the faithful of whatever faith 
could simply and plausibly claim that the Overlords' machine was presenting 
propaganda, not historical fact.  The other is that several religions do not 
depend on the wonder-working abilities of their founders for the basis of 
their faith.  Buddhism is one, as Clarke realized.  But Islam and Ba'hai are 
others.  Probably the polytheistic religions, like Hinduism and Shinto, could 
get along well enough without the literal, physical enactment of their myths.  
They nearly do so already.

When I referred to "Childhood's End" as Buddhist, I didn't mean that Clarke 
let Buddhism survive his purge of religions.  Rather, I meant that the climax 
of the story resembles the mystical goal of Buddhism and Hinduism, absorption 
into Nirvana or Brahm.

Earl Wajenberg

    Re A. Clarke & Buddhism;
    
    Clarke has depicted Buddhism as the last surviving religion in at
    least one other novel, _The_Deep_Range_.  He uses a similar explanation
    - that all other major religions depend on a basic revelation which
    science (human or Overlord) can disprove or devalue.  In
    _The_Deep_Range, the head of Sri Lankan Buddhism has replaced the
    Pope as the world's primary religious figure.

Hogan and Heinlein have a strongly anti-religious bias?????
I'm not sure I agree, at least about Hogan.  I think if you
substituted "anti-dogma" for "anti-religious" then I would
definitely agree.  I recently finished "CODE OF THE LIFE-
MAKERS" by Hogan and one of the main themes was how the
unquestioned belief in dogma stifled the acquisition of
knowledge.  As far as I know, this is the only Hogan book
that directly deals with religion, and I didn't find it
anti-religious.  Could you (Bonnie) give some examples?

	This is my first reply to this conference, so I
hope this ends up in the right place.

	Getting back to the main subject, I don't think that
SF and religion are incompatible at all!  I think they were
made for each other.  What better medium to explore religious
topics than SF, where you can create entirely new situations.
I.E. Do intelligent robots have a soul?--If God is a super-
intelligent alien, what's His religion like?-- etc.  However,
I do think that SF is incompatible with very structured
religions. Those who read (and enjoy) SF have open minds, and
in my opinion, are NOT the type to blindly accept religious
teachings.  I am no longer a Catholic because of this manner
of thinking.

	As far as recomendations for books combining religion
and SF, a rather strange novel called "SHIKASTA" by Doris
Lessing comes to mind.  I'll look over my home library tonite
and see if I can find any more books not yet mentioned that 
would fit the bill.  This is a HOT topic and one that I am
looking foreward to discussing further.

		T.K.

    	How does being a Catholic keep one from reading SF with an open
    mind?  
    
    	I am Roman Catholic, yet I have never been "suppressed" from
    reading (or writing) SF, nor do I have any personal conflicts over
    what I read in SF. 
    
    	I always try to view things with an open mind - if I felt that
    any institution was trying to make me believe them blindly, I would
    be gone from them in a flash!  Yet I'm still a Catholic.  The Church
    has made some progress, believe it or not - I was even delighted
    to once read in a catechism book from my grammar school days which
    said that there was a very strong possibility of other intelligent
    beings in the Universe, and that there was certainly nothing wrong
    in believing that such beings could exist.
                       
    	Larry
    

                       
    	Larry

	Apologies are in order, I suppose.  It's been a long time
 (20 years) since I studied catechism, and I guess things HAVE changed.

	What I meant was that reading SF started a train of thought in
 my own mind that resulted in my rejection of organized religion.  I did
 NOT mean to imply that this must (or should) happen to everyone.  The
 statement was just a personal aside and probably should have been omitted.

	T.K.

    answer to .63
    In the three books about the Minervain/Ganemedians Hogan
    frequently mentions that there is no basis for our belief
    in a supreme being. In the last book he states that religions 
    were actually created by other technologically advanced
    humans as a means of manipulating the rest of humanity.
    
    While I didn't find this a bar to my enjoying those three
    books I did find his implied message - that any one who
    pratices a religion is either a dupe or a fraud - unpleasant
    enough that I decided not to finish reading Code of the Life
    Maker.
    
    Bonnie

    	I now have a better understanding of your side of the issue,
    so no harm done.  :^)
    
    	I would like to add this comment to this Topic:  In the
    novelization of STAR TREK - THE MOTION PICTURE, by Gene Roddenberry
    (1979), it is learned that Vulcans DO believe in a God, but that
    their concept of God is that His existence is a natural part of
    the order in the Cosmos, and no "big deal" should be made over the
    fact of His existence (i.e., no worshipping).
    
    	This philosophy may sound "cold" to some of us emotional humans, 
    but it is - of course - logical to Vulcans.
                                                 
    	Larry
    

$ SET TOPIC/SIDE_TRACKED

RE: .67 

>    	I would like to add this comment to this Topic:  In the
>    novelization of STAR TREK - THE MOTION PICTURE, by Gene Roddenberry
>    (1979), it is learned that Vulcans DO believe in a God, but that
>    their concept of God is that His existence is a natural part of
>    the order in the Cosmos, and no "big deal" should be made over the
>    fact of His existence (i.e., no worshipping).
    
The concept is called "deism", and states that God created everything but
then assumes no control or interest in the creation.  (Gee, sounds like a
lot of engineers I know :-))  There are a few of us who cannot accept that
"the universe just sort of happened", but also cannot accept the belief in
a God who demands adoration from us.

$ SET TOPIC/MAIN_TRACK


I don't think it is religion that is incompatible with SF.  At least, many
religious people I know (of many faiths) read SF avidly.  I think it is more
intolerance and closed-mindedness which is incompatible with the optimism 
and free-thinking which is present in a lot of SF.  Unfortunately, many times
this intolerance and closed-mindedness (which is present in many types of
people) is expressed most loudly in terms of religious belief, which is how 
religion gets a bad reputation.

-- Ken Moreau

	In response to the querry for books on the subject, Clifford
 Simak's (sp?) A CHOICE OF GODS deals with religious and christian
 issues in a SF setting, and I believe he has written others as well
 but I can't recall any titles.  WAYFARER by Dennis Schmidt deals with
 the Japanese "way of the sword" (I forget the Japanese term) and
 although not strictly religious, may be of interest.  A nonfiction
 book by Paul Davies called GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS would probabally
 benefit as well.

	T.K.

    	To elaborate somewhat on the Vulcan concept of God, they call
    this philosophy NOME, which means ALL.
    
    	It is very similar to the Spanish philosopher Spinoza's view
    of God - which is that Everything is God, and God is Everything.
    
    	Larry
    

    It is very plausible to paint Vulcans as either deists or pantheists
    or both ("pandeists"?), since these are the two positions human
    philosophers generally wind up at, if they (1) wind up at any theistic
    position at all, and (2) do not accept a non-philosophical source
    as authoritative, e.g. a set of scriptures or traditions.
    
    In fact, one might complain that this is so human a thing as to
    be inappropriate to Vulcans.  Are all Vulcans supposed to be Nomists?
    Is it a state religion?  Or what?
    
    PS: Spinoza was Dutch, not Spanish, though he may have been of
    Spanish ancestry, since he was Jewish by birth (later excommunicated),
    and I believe many Spanish Jews fled to Holland when they were expelled
    from Spain.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies,rec.arts.sf-lovers
Path: decwrl!pyramid!amdahl!ptsfa!ihnp4!homxb!houxm!mtuxo!mtgzz!leeper
Subject: MAN FACING SOUTHEAST
Posted: 16 Mar 87 19:51:27 GMT
Organization: AT&T, Middletown NJ
Xref: decwrl rec.arts.movies:1434 rec.arts.sf-lovers:2210
 
 
	       MAN FACING SOUTHEAST (HOMBRE MIRANDO AL SUDESTE)
		       A film review by Mark R. Leeper
			Copyright 1987 Mark R. Leeper
 
	  Capsule review:  A serious science fiction film from
     Argentina has a psychiatrist faced with a Christ-like patient
     who claims to be an alien.  This is a film with a lot to say
     about psychiatry, hunger, charity, and religion.  With that
     much to say it is, perhaps, over-ambitious.  It does not do
     everything right but what is right is worth seeing.
 
    Argentina is not one of the countries one generally expects to be
making science fiction films.  It has had a film industry for quite a
long time--as anyone who has heard EVITA knows--but their films seem
rarely seem to get international play and do not seem to have much
fantasy, in any case. Yet Argentina has a heritage of literary fantasy
led until his recent death by Jorge Luis Borges.  Borges's influence
can be felt in a new fantasy science fiction film from Argentina, MAN
FACING SOUTHEAST.  The film combines elements of THE MAN WHO FELL TO
EARTH and ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST. 
 
    The main character of MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is a psychiatrist in an
insane asylum.  Dr. Denis is disturbed by his inability to really help
his patients and by the asylum's callous and factory-like treatment of
patients. One patient's fantasy, incidentally, is an uncredited
enactment of the painting "The Lovers" by Magritte.  But a new patient
appears at the asylum one day, committing himself.  It is Rantes's
apparent delusion that he is an extra-terrestrial sent to Earth on a
mission.  He commits himself voluntarily because he knows society
would only commit him more forcibly if he did not. 
 
    Rantes sees the suffering and pain around him and the selfishness
of the comfortable.  In a number of scenes he turns the tables.  But
Dr. Denis is the real center of the story.  Facing pressure to drug
Rantes out of what may or may not be an illusion (actually the
audience knows which but the doctor does not), Denis sees himself as
Pontius Pilate, being forced to crucify another Jesus.  As more
patients at the asylum become disciples of Rantes, the pressures
increase on the bewildered psychiatrist to fulfill his role as the
later-day Pilate. 
 
    MAN FACING SOUTHEAST is an intelligent science fiction film that
needs no special effects.  It is at once a cry of social despair, a
philosophical essay, and a science fiction story.  If anything it
tries to be too much and spreads itself too thin; often it gives way
to cliche.  Yet in many ways it is comparable to THE MAN IN THE WHITE
SUIT and if the Argentine industry follows the same path the British
did, we can hope to see a lot more good films from it in the future. 
Rate MAN FACING SOUTHEAST a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale. 
 
					Mark R. Leeper
					ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper
					mtgzz!leeper@rutgers.rutgers.edu

     
    
    Has anyone else noticed how much the PTL resemble the Fosterites
    from Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" ?
    
    
    /srp

    Thats a terible thing to say about Fosterites the Foserites believed
    in freedom of choice as long as they got there money. The PTL club
    want to run your life as well as robe your pocket.
                          Jeff Peters Heinlein fan                             
    

    re .73 and .74
    
    The PTL club was really much more benign that the Fosterties -
    Heinlein painted them with all the worst features of fundamentalism
    as he saw it. The "christians" in his theocracy really owe far more
    to the attitudes of the Aryan Nation, or the angels of the Lord
    or the "Identity Christians "or any of the other right wing miltant 
    religion based groups than they do to the PTL club and similar groups. 
    For what ever their failings (and I do not personally feel comfortable
    with their expressions of Christian faith) the PTL club and similar
    groups never would have espoused a militant take over of the US
    government nor the forceing of everyone to accept their theology
    as the only valid one.
    
    Bonnie J
    

Regarding Jews/Science Fiction/Other Religion SF/

As mentioned before, Jack Dann's anthology "Wandering Stars" is 
superb! It contains SF based on Jewish themes - from the Golem 
through blue, spheroid aliens who are Jewish (but they don't look, 
...etc., etc.) The writers include Harlan Ellison, Isaac Asimov and 
equally "stellar" authors. A second collection, "More Wandering 
Stars" is out.

In addition, "Yenemvelt" (or "Other World") includes Yiddish SF (and 
this is really high class writing). For a touch of Tibet, check out 
what happens when the lamas go "on high tech" to count the "Ten 
Thousand Names of G-d" by Arthur Clarke.

As for the rather strange statement that most SF readers are 
Christian, I'd love to see the source of this info. There's an awful 
lot of SF being written (and supposedly read) in non-Christian 
countries, not to mention the many Jewish writers. etc. Basically, I 
would think since much of SF is involved with alternative 
philosophies, it is not surprising that little of it is dedicated to 
traditional religions.

P.S. Ezekiel and the Wheel is a great piece of UFOlogy, don't you 
think?  ;-)

    Ruth (Richard's better half... 3/4?)

    re .76
    As one of the noters that might have been considered to have
    been an author of "the strange statement that most science fiction
    authors are Christian" I think that if you read carefully the
    statements were intentionally hedged - and were intended to 
    make a statement about the cultural background of the majority
    of those who read sf in USA and Europe and nothing more. (and by
    majority I mean more than 50%) There was no intent at any kind 
    of racial or ethnic steryotyping expressed or implied.
    
    Bonnie J
    

    re .76;
    
    I think you mean "THe Nine Billion Names of God"...
    

    Hi,
    
    Just thought I would throw in another suggestion of SCI-FI
    which is pro-religion, Clifford Simak's "Where
    Evil Dwells".  The story is quite anti-mytisticism (sp?)  In fact
    the ending involves the hero discovering how powerful saints are.
    I don't want to give away more because if would be a major spoiler.
    
    BTW In the SCI-FI courses I took in college John's Book of Revelations
    was considered a terrific example of SCI-FI.
    
    Joe

    I certainly HOPE science fiction and Christianity are compatible!
    Since I'm a Christian writing science fiction, I'm in big trouble
    if they aren't!
    
    --bonnie

    Though I'm personally a devout agnostic, for some reason, religious
    sf is one of my favorite subgenres.
    
    I looked through my collection this morning, and came up with some
    recommendations for religious sf that I haven't seen mentioned here
    yet.
    
    Sailor, Charles, _The Second Son_ (SFBC edition).
    
    A construction worker sacrifices himself to rescue a fellow worker
    trapped on a wayward I-beam.  The effort succeeds, but the rescuer
    falls twenty-four storeys to the ground.  Miraculously, he does not
    die.  The novel concerns the effect the Messiah would have on modern
    society, if He showed up today. 
    
    
    _The Day the Sun Stood Still_, including "A Chapter of Revelation,"
    by Poul Anderson, "Thomas, The Proclaimer," by Robert Silverberg,
    and "Things Which Are Caesar's," by Gordon R. Dickson, with a forward
    by Lester Del Rey (SFBC edition).
    
    Three well-known writers are asked to write about the same theme: What
    effect would positive proof of the existence of God have on society?
    The resulting novellas are quite different, reflecting the authors'
    different writing styles.  The Anderson story is my favorite, but all
    are interesting. 
    
    
    Sagan, Carl, _Contact_.
    
    A First Contact novel with some religious elements.  To say more would
    constitute a spoiler. 
                                    
    
    Bishop, Michael, _Close Encounters with the Deity_.
    
    There are a number of religious sf stories in this excellent
    collection.  My favorite is "The Gospel According to Gamaliel Crucis;
    Or, the Astrogator's Testimony," a controversial story written in
    biblical-style verse. 
    
    
    Ryan, Alan, ed., _Perpetual Light_ (SFBC edition).
    
    This one is an anthology of religious sf from various authors.  The
    stories are uneven in quality, but several are excellent.  My favorite
    is the first one in the book, "The Pope of the Chimps," by Robert
    Silverberg.  It hung around in my mind for quite some time after
    I finished it.
    
    						-- Roger

    	Another one (if you can find it) with strong religious content
    is _Behold_the_Man_ by Michael Moorcock.  In it, a Jewish doubter
    uses access to a time machine to go back and determine for himself
    who Jesus really was.  To say anymore would give away the story,
    but it was a pretty interesting (read: controversial) plot!

    	Hey, I don't know about anybody else, but *I* would like to
    know what goes on in those SF stories you mention but do not elaborate
    on - if you're worried about "ruining" the plot for anyone, write
    the word SPOILER before telling the plot, so that at least if we
    wish we can understand better WHY these make good Christian SF books.
               
    	In regards to the Topic, I remember seeing a one-page comic
    strip at an SF convention about what would happen to Jesus if he
    appeared in modern-day New York City (the strip was made around
    1972).  Essentially, He was arrested first for being a hippie (He
    had His traditional long hair and beard and white robe), and was
    then charged with being a Communist anarchist! (He was preaching
    that all men are brothers.)  Somehow I don't doubt that's how we
    would treat Jesus if He appeared today.
    
    	It also reminds me of the paragraph in Douglas Adam's THE
    HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, where humans were shown as they
    can sometimes be when the introduction to the book mentioned "Two
    thousand years after a Man was nailed to a tree for saying how good
    it would be if everyone was nice to each other for a change."
                                                                 
    	Larry
    

    RE: .83
    
    .82 pretty well sums up the plot of BEHOLD THE MAN, Larry. But if
    you want the spoiler ...
    
    
    The person who goes back in time looking for Jesus, ends up *becoming*
    Jesus.
    
    Fred

    re:.83
    
    The comic you refer to is "Foolbert Sturgeon's" THE NEW ADVENTURES
    OF JESUS, which is a hilarious, but mostly irreverent, underground
    comic. Sturgeon did a couple of other Jesus comics as well. I
    think my favorite story from the set was about Jesus going to the
    movies to see "The Greatest Story Ever Told", which in true
    Hollywood style, ends with Jesus (looking like Steve Reeves)
    standing triumphantly atop Golgotha holding the cross in one
    hand and Mary Magdelene in the other. As the audience files out,
    one patron says to his date, "Gee, that isn't the way it ended
    in the book." To which Jesus says, "Believe me, it's better."
    
    --- jerry

    Two thoughts come to mind -- Mark Twain's "Cap'n Stormfield's Visit
    to Heaven", and on the other hand, Fritz Leiber's _Gather_Darkness_.
    Try both; but Twain has the befuddled Cap'n Stormfield showing up
    at the wrong gate to Heaven and being asked which world he was from.
    He replied, "Earth."  Being informed that most peoples call their
    planet something like that, he said, "Er, it's the one the Saviour
    saved."  The alien gatekeeper bowed his head reverently and responded,
    "The worlds He has saved are beyond counting."  And then he set
    about trying to find the right sector of Heaven to send this vagabond.
    Forgive the lack of actual quotes (unless my memory is better than
    I think), but I haven't seen this story for 20 years and have spent
    some time looking for it, getting mostly blank stares from bookshop
    owners.
    
    - elizabeth

    And I still didn't see any reference to Cliff Simak's _Project_Pope_,
    or Clarke's _Rendezvous_With_Rama_, both excellent religious fiction.
    I will not discuss non-Christian religious fiction here, but there
    is much of this and (in fact) a considerable cross-over; i.e., the
    Kurtz books and Kathleen Sky's _Witchdame_ are excellent from both
    Christian and Pagan viewpoints, as they combine the best aspects
    of both...
    
    Elizabeth

    I found Carl Sagan's _Contact_ to contain ideas on religion that
    I can really relate to.  The main character has trouble accepting
    religious beliefs on faith.  This to me seems like it should be very
    common among scientists, who always want proof before they'll believe
    anything.  The main exposure of non-faithful people to Christianity
    comes about through the mass media (ie TV), where the big stars
    are generally loud-mouths who are good at preaching but not very
    good at listening.  This seemed to me to be a little unfair, but
    not totally out of line with what today's TV evangelists are like.
    The ending (which really let me down until the VERY end) provides
    'proof' that the creation of our universe was deliberate.  What's
    more, Whoever (Whatever?) created it had some pretty amazing control
    over the physical laws, and so could be considered God-like.  
    	If there is a Creater, I'm going to need proof like that before
    I'll be able to REALLY BELIEVE it.
    	
    Steve  

    
    Sometimes I wonder if people would REALLY BELIEVE even if evidence like
    that in _CONTACT_ were found. After all, although probabilities are
    VERY VERY low of the "circle" sequence in PI occuring "naturally",
    probabilities are also very low in areas of "science" such as
    evolution.
    
    David.

    	See SF Topic 293 for an in-depth discussion on the nature of
    Pi in Sagan's novel CONTACT.
    
    	Larry
    

    In an earlier note it was mentioned that SF is the modern mythology.
    May be all mytholgy was the SF of old days !

    After reading all 91 responses to this question, I realized that no one
    has had any input for about two years.  Too bad, this one topic can be
    one for sharing and exploring this issue.
    
    I am a Christian and am writing SF.  Also, in the future I hope to
    publish a magazine similar to Asimov's SF Mag for Christians.  If any
    interest in this endeavor, let me know.
    
    It is difficult to maintain Christian principles in SF.  The current
    issue of IASFM [July 90] has two letters to the Editor on this very
    topic.  Why, I do believe (as one earlier NOTER remarked), that
    Christians are getting more involved (yet being in the world and not of
    it).
    
    Gotta run to a meeting now, but real quick, a trilogy I heartily and
    enthusiastically recommend (if you can find it) is MK Wren's "the
    Phoenix Legacy".  The three titles are "The Sword of the Lamb", The
    Shadow of the Swan", and, "The House of Wolfe".  In my opinion, THE
    best SF trilogy ever written!  Yes, I have read them all.  Maybe in a
    future note I will explain my reasoning.  But, I am late to a meeting
    so, ta ta.
    

    re: .-1
    
    Yes, it's hard to maintain Christian principles in SF, hard in 
    novelistic terms that is.  Take a novel that I recently came 
    across, "Pennterra" by Judith Moffett.  It's the only SF story that
    I've ever seen about Quakers.  A group of Quakers are chosen to 
    be the first colonists on an alien planet.  When they get there 
    they find that the planet is already inhabited by 
    pre-technological sentients.  The natives permit them to settle 
    in one valley, but forbid them to expand outside of the valley or 
    to increase their numbers.  The Quakers agree to the terms, but the
    follow-on non-Quaker settlers are not so obliging.  
    
    Quakers are fairly far from the mainstream of Christianity, but 
    the basic principles are still there.  The trouble with having 
    them as protagonists in a novel is that they're too.... nice.
    They're hopeless goody-goodies.  They're humble, mild-mannered, 
    and respectful of others, even when that means denying themselves.
    They're what people really ought to be like, and they're terrible 
    subjects for fiction.  After a few pages you feel like strangling
    them. 
    
    The trouble is that purely good protagonists are hard to identify 
    with.  We know we're not saints and so don't want to read stories 
    about them.  We want to project ourselves into the story and so 
    want to match up with the characters there.  If the characters 
    make us uncomfortable with our own failings, we stop reading.
    People who really embody the Christian virtues of love and 
    brotherhood might be good side characters or victims of villainy, 
    but rarely seem to make good protagonists.
    
    /jlr

    Re .93
    
    Yes, a morally perfect protagonist puts so many strictures on an author
    that it often becomes dull.  A useful alternative is a protagonist who
    goes through moral reform or growth in the course of the story.  This
    is not only more flexible and interesting dramatically, it is much more
    edifying.
    
    Of course, moral improvement of the hero can be handled badly; any
    theme can be handled badly.  But it's easier to handle well than a hero
    without flaw.  As a good example of this, consider Frodo in "Lord of
    the Rings," who grows in courge, wisdom, and mercy in the course of plot.
    
    Also notice that, while LotR contains nothing explicitly Christian in
    the way of theology -- even contains faint allusions to things like 
    pagan gods -- it is still full of Christian principles.  These are all
    the more forceful for being put forth in a different "dress" and for
    being held in common, in part or in whole, by other major religions and
    moral philosophies.
    
    (Sorry if this repeats remarks made earlier in this topic.  I have NOT
    stopped to re-read all 90-odd previous notes.)
    
    Earl Wajenberg

	Christian Science Fiction.    hmmmmm.  howzabout,

	Presbyterian Haikus
	Pagan Macrame
	Zoroastrian Operas
	Druid Tap Dancing
	Mormon Rock n' Roll ...

								bIGhIG

    Re.94
    
    Do not confuse "goodness" with Christianity.  Stories that maintain
    goodness do give the allusion to Christian principles but underlying
    themes can plant seeds of humanism.  A good example is STAR WARS. 
    Though chalk full of "goodness" vs. "badness", thus giving Christian
    overtones, the basic foundation in Hinduism.
    
    OK. This is one of the veils that cloud the issue.  Now that we can
    understand the pitfall of "goodness" and "badness", what other pitfalls
    can trap the Christian SF writer?
    
    For me, a worthy goal is to write a story is that Christian in
    principles, but not blatant in its foundation.  I find this very
    difficult, thus, all the more challenging to pursue.
    
    David

    Re .97
    
    Right.  While we're at it, don't confuse humanism and Hinduism. 
    They're quite different!  (I always thought Star Wars was more Taoist,
    but that's a different issue.)
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    In regards to the treatment of Christianity in SF, a trilogy by MK Wren
    does an excellent job of centering the trilogy around Christianity. 
    The story starts in the 25th century and finished in the 33rd.  The
    author does an excellent job of representing Christianity as it may be
    like that far into the future.  She goes on to do something that most
    writers do not, she actually includes the metamorphic process of a
    complex system, something that I am impressed with.
    
    In my opinion, this trilogy is the finest written by anyone (and I have
    read them all, most repeatedly).  When I read, I study.  I have come up
    with a set of criteria to judge SF work that I feel comfortable with.
    As I assess trilogies, with this criteria, I found that MK Wren's "the
    Phoenix Legacy" to be the best of all work published before 1988.  This
    work goes beyond the Foundation and LotR.
    
    If anyone is interested in this criteria, note me or inquire directly
    to ACE::Larson.  I'll be more than glad to hear comments and
    suggestions to improve my criteria.
    
    Notsoperfect but... GINFWMY.
    
    David									

    What is GINFWMY?
    
    Will, not the world's best noter

    Can you tell us a little more about the plot and setting of Wren's
    triology?

    re. 100
    
    GINFWMY => God is not finished with me yet.
    
    re. 101
    
    Wow!  How much space (and time) do I have.  To prefix any answer, allow
    me to say the this trilogy is, in my opinion, more complicated than the
    Foundation trilogy or LotR.  This is one of my criteria; the ability to
    create a complex plot yet not bury or confuse the reader.  The more
    complex the story yet keeping the reader, the better the skill of the
    writer.  Anyway, Martha K. Renfro (M.K. Wren) inserts more inuendos and
    subplots into this trilogy than any other major work that I have
    read, yet at no time is the reader inundated with fact or innuence.
    
    Now, to set about the task of relating the three volumes.
    
    The setting is planet earth, no longer partitioned by countries but is
    governed by a council of men.  Each 'seat' is occupied by a Family
    head.  Each family controls one or more commodities that the other
    families purchase.  You can imagine, in our day in time, a family
    controlling (owning) all transportation manufacturing, another
    electronics, another farming, another ranching, another communications,
    etc.  That is earth of the year 3400.
    
    Colonization of another solar system happened around 2800 and two
    sub-families controlled the colony.  One became strong enough to be
    awarded a seat on the council but strong opposition by one of the
    oldest chairs fought against it.  The result, around the year 3200 was
    total abandonment of the colony leaving the colonists to themselves.
    
    The story is about two brothers, Alexand and Richard deKoven Wolfe. 
    Their father is one of the most powerful men on the council.  The Wolfe
    family owns all communications on earth and the colony.  This family is
    also one of the most popular among the Fesh and the labor forces.  More
    about that later.  Meanwhile, the Wolfe family is adored by all.
    
    Because of the Wolfe's status, Alexand and Richard are afforded the
    best education possible.  Private tutors, limitless resources, and
    freedom to think for themselves.  Also, they have access to nearly all
    data in the governments library.
    
    Before going further, to explain the society, it is Feudal.  There are
    Lords, visLords, Ladies, et al.  The Fesh is a contraction of
    professional and is a social caste.  These are engineers, doctors,
    technicians, teachers, clergy, etc.  The lowest of the three orders is
    the labor force (I can't recall the title).  At this level there is no
    education except in the rarest case.  Basically they are slaves.  The
    Fesh and the laborers are owned by the ruling family.  Not to be sold,
    but may be traded or given away.
    
    The ruling family also 'owns' lesser noble families, i.e. the oldest
    son's brothers, cousins, distant relations.  In this case, Alexand is
    the oldest son, eventually Richard will serve him, along with Alexands
    uncles, cousins, ad infinitum.  Until the Age of Rights (21 years old)
    Alexand is known as a visLord along with Richard.
    
    This is all only a foundation given in the first chapter or two in the
    first book "Sword of the Lamb."  For the sake of brevity I will do a
    very short synopsis of the three books.
    
    This is a story about man vs. man, man vs. society, society vs.
    society.  It is a very logical prediction of mankind 1500 years from
    now.  In fact, throught the book the author includes essays on the
    history prior to the trilogies opening.  This history 'lesson' goes all
    the way back to the 21st century!.  The logical historical assumptions
    are so smooth and acceptable that the story is quite enjoyable.
    
    The complexity of the story dictates that even a word, or a gesture has
    significant meaning crucial to the intermediate and final climaxes. 
    Moreover, considerable thought was given to every word in the story. 
    In many cases, a glance of an eye, the feinted smile, the clothes a
    person wore, though insignificant at the time or (in the chronology of
    the story) for the next ten years, but then, zap! it is an important
    event.  Many writers do this purposely, Tolkien and Asimov do this
    well, but not to the extent and skill as Wren.  In most books, the
    reader can tell what events or objects have or will have significance. 
    In this series one cannot be so accurate.
    
    This is a story of a social system that is going downhill, much like
    the Empire in Foundation.  This is a story of a secret society, like
    the Foundation, who is working to preserve and protect the society, and
    it too is misunderstood and hunted.  This is a story of two brothers
    who find there way into the society, one as a bastard, the other as a
    dead man.  The is a story of two brothers who, because of their wisdom
    and love for the society as a whole, go against everything that they
    were brought up for and rebelled that they might preserve what they
    were brought up for.  This is a SF novel, a romance novel, an adventure
    novel, and a mystery novel all in one.  This trilogy will enthuse the
    technical person because of the development of technology throught the
    three books.
    
    I've been working on this for an hour now and I want to go home.  Any
    more questions are welcome.
    
    Oh yes, good luck in finding this series, it is quite difficult. You
    will either have to special order it, or find it in a used book store. 
    The Berkely edition is the first edition.  The jackets have raised
    embossing on them.  I don't think it was ever available in hardback, in
    fact, I know it wasn't.  I had the first edition but loaned it out and
    never returned.  I found, after a two year search, acquired another
    first edition set.  Volume one was published around 1982, V.2 in 1983
    and V.3 in 1984 me thinks.  Anyway, I got the first when it first came
    out and had to wait 10 months for the second, then 16 months for the
    third.  Boy, was I frustrated!  I was drooling hard and heavy between
    volumes.
    
    Glad you asked.
    
    David
    

    
    The laborers are called "Bonds".
    
    I read this trilogy some time ago. Reading .102's note has inspired me
    to go back and re-read it. Great set of books !
    
    Joan G.
    

    .102
    
    Thanks for the reply.  This is my last entry.  Sorry I cannot continue
    to elaborate on this trilogy.  I encourage all to read it.  I went to
    the book store last night to see if it is still in print.  Only the
    second volume is available.  Perhaps some interest will be regenerated
    to get a third edition out.  I will write to Berkley Books.  I suggest
    to those who are interested to try used book stores.
    
    I am leaving DEC today to parts unknown.  Perhaps I shall be back.  For
    those who are curious as to what I hope to accomplish in SF, read
    122.68.  My dream is to become a full time writer in both SF and
    general Fiction.  I am working on an English Composition textbook at
    the present time.
    
    I would really enjoy hearing from any of you.  My address is:
    	David Larson
    	7200 Montgomery NE
    	Box 230
    	Albuquerque, NM
    	87109
    
    I have really enjoyed this particular notefile.  Each of you take care.
    

    I know this note has been inactive for over a year, but I thought I'd
    put in a reply anyway.  Orson Scott Card's _Speaker for the Dead_ is in
    part a look at what role religion should/does play in a community.  He
    also talks about dealing with religion in SF in his anthology _Maps in
    a Mirror_.
    
    -- ST

    Although I consider myself as a believer, I am not part of one of the
    organized forms of Christianity. Like Heinlein I am a bit peeved with
    clubs who claim to have the true path to God.

    I accept the writings in the Bible are a guideline how to live your life,
    and try (but not always succeeding) to live by them. I also think one
    should view the Bible as a book which is written by humans, albeit
    influenced by a deity. Things were written down with their own world
    view in mind (e.g. an Earth centered universe). Also that the Bible is
    not the ultimate collection of God-inspired writings...

    As for SF, I thing that SF lets you explore the various "What if's"
    posed by life. As such it can take a view and explore it in isolation.
    As such it makes me think, and also review my opinions. As one of my
    opinions is my believe, Christian based stories help me to review them
    and on occasion shake the fundaments.

    I also like stories which take other God-views and basics for believes
    in account (I phrase this badly, I mean stories which have Hinduism or
    Buddism etc. at their core). With these stories, and also non-SF books
    on these subjects make review my beliefs on a regular basis.

    Yes, I think that SF and Christianity can go hand in hand. May I
    paraphrase something which is in the Bible (here I make a translation
    from Dutch, I don't know the English): "Examine everything, and keep
    the good".

    Wildrik

    Re: .106
    
    From beginning to end...amen!
    
    K.C.

re: Note 442.99 by ACE::LARSON
>
>    In regards to the treatment of Christianity in SF, a trilogy by MK Wren
>    does an excellent job of centering the trilogy around Christianity. 

and,  re: Note 901.7 by LABRYS::CONNELLY 
>
>There is a new M. K. Wren book out in paperback, but i don't remember the
>title off the top of my head.  Supposed to be a Post-Holocaust story about
>two women trying to preserve the knowledge of the past in the face of
>other hostile/crazed survivors (according to the jacket blurb).

  The title of this other book is _A_Gift_Upon_the_Shore_.  I picked up a
  hardcopy at a discount (clearance) price.

  Given the introduction in 442.99 to _The_Phoenix_Legacy_, I was
  interested to see how M.K. Wren would treat a post-holocaust world in a
  Christian perspective.  I was disappointed.  This is a good novel by a
  good writer, but I drew a blank in trying to find the uniquely Christian
  perspective.

  Actually, this novel isn't science fiction.  The destruction of
  civilization as we know it by nuclear holocaust was just a setting to put
  the story in.  The real theme set The Book against the books.

  The protagonist (named Mary Hope) along with her mentor and friend Rachel
  Morrow sought to preserve what they could of human civilization in the
  form of a vast collection of books.  For a number of years they thought
  they were the only survivors in their part of the Pacific Northwest. 
  Then Luke came along.  He was a member of a community of Christian
  Fundamentalists who called themselves "the Flock" and lived in their
  refuge called "the Ark."  When the story began, the Flock was living
  with Mary Hope on her farm (Rachel Morrow having died some years before).
  The time was some thirty years or so after Luke came to Mary and Rachel.
  Jeremiah, Luke's son, was now the elder of the Flock.  But the nemesis
  of Mary was Miriam, a fanatic believer of the Bible who considered all
  other book knowledge that does not agree with the Bible, blasphemous.

  The narrative alternates between the "present" at Amarna (Mary's farm),
  told in the first person, and the story of Mary from the time of the
  nuclear holocaust, told in the third person.  The two narratives converge
  and builds up to a climax, the showdown between Miriam and Mary.

  What is the point of the story?  I think it is to show the
  unreasonableness of a rigid faith; that saying "I don't know" is the
  beginning of understanding.  To me, this perspective is neither
  un-Christian nor uniquely Christian.

  --Simon

    
    Seeing this note reminds me...
    
    I have a book called _Inventing the Middle 
    Ages_ about the historians and philosophers who have studied
    the Middle Ages. There's a long chapter commenting on C.S. Lewis 
    and J.R.R. Tolkien and how their studies on the middle ages influenced 
    their works. It's a recent publication, so it should be available.
    Author is Cantor.

    re: .108 "The Book versus books"
    
    Sounds like a straw man argument.  I'm sure there are people who
    think that only the Bible (or the Koran, or Mao's sayings) should
    be read, but it would be tough to defend that intellectually.
    How does M. K. Wren do it?  Or is Miriam simply a fanatic villain?
    
    Here's how I would do it.  The modern attitude of total
    information availability has led to total information overload. 
    There is simply too much for anyone to follow.  The result is
    that no one ever thinks about or discusses what they read.  They
    have no one to discuss it with because everyone is off on some
    unique tangent.  When was the last time that you and a friend
    read the same non-fiction book and talked about it?  There's
    rarely much discussion of particular books even in this notes
    file, and it's a gathering of like-minded fans of an extremely
    popular genre.
    
    If you don't have anyone to talk about a book with, do you really
    put much work into understanding it?  Or do you just go on to the next
    one, the next candy in the box.  You sample sweet after sweet,
    tasting an interesting piece of history here, a colorful
    travelogue there, the biography of an adventurous person over
    here.  It's an intellectual diet high on calories and low on
    nutrition, and everything about modern publishing encourages it.

    Anyway, that's the argument I would use.
        
    /jlr

    re. basenote
    
    In Ursula LaGuins "The Dispossed" a conversation takes place between
    two Cetians which mentions the Fall of Cetian Man. It seems the Cetian
    version of Adam was driven from paradise for counting his digits and
    thus becomming numerate without the permission of the Almighty.
    
    Religion was not the theme of the the Dispossed but it did come up in
    the course of the story.
    
    There was an anthology I once read (cant remember title or author) but
    one of the short stories was about the killing of Joseph, Mary and
    their Child on the way to Egypt. It was told first person by the leader
    of a squad of Roman soldiers sent by Herod to do the foul deed. It was
    the completion of the slaying of the Innocents in Bethlehem.
    
    In an other story I read (damn cant remember title and author again!)
    the story had a Jewish theme. A race of non humans become converted to
    Judiasm and when their planet is about to break up, they try to get a
    minion to sit Sheva (a Jewish mourning custom) for the planet. It was
    sort of amusing.
    
    In one of the Star Trek Novels , I think it was Visitors From Space,
    Spock goes back in time and encounters one of Amanda's forbears, a
    Jewish gentleman.
    
    Also in the Star Trek Novel "Ishmael" the same thing occurs.
    
    If you have ever seen Spock do his split finger salute that accompanies
    "live long and prosper" you are seeing a Jewish gesture. It was done by
    the Cohanim (the Priests of the order of Aaron) when giving the
    tripartite blessing "The Lord bless you and keep you......etc.". I
    always figured Spock was Jewish, and I suppose Leonard Nimoy concurs.
    8>)).
    
    
    In Eddings latest series, the protagonist is a Knight of his Church
    which is sort of a religious thing.
    
    In Tolkiens "Silmarilion", the whole novel exudes the Creation myth.
    It is very Chirstian-like in its tone.
    

  re .110: 

  From my reading of the novel, M.K. Wren is not a Biblical inerrantist. 
  If I had not read this topic I might even suspect the author of being
  antagonistic towards Fundamentalist Christianity.  But I wouldn't know
  where in the theological spectrum Martha Kay Renfroe is in real life.

  --Simon

    Re .190:
    
    In a *really* obscure literary work on literature in the 16th century,
    Lewis himself talks about the "making of the middle ages."  He points
    out that the term, along with "medieval," was coined by the Humanist
    scholars of the 16th century, along with words like "classical."  The
    Humanists were generally pro-classical and anti-medieval.  (And, by the
    way, these 16th century Humanists should not be confused with modern
    "humanism" as a philosophy.  They were Humanists because they studied
    the "humanities," and are notable chiefly for a revival of knowledge of
    classical Latin and Greek literature, not for science or philosophy.)
    
    Re .111:
    
    Whether or not Spock is Jewish, Leonard Nimoy is, and once said that he
    invented the Vulcan salute based on the priestly gesture of
    benediction (which is, by the way, inherited by some Christian
    liturgy).
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    A very interesting book that you would not find in the SF section of a
    library or bookstore but may qualify for it is by Taylor Caldwell and
    is called "My Brother Michael" or "Letters to Michael" (I can't recall
    the title at the moment)  The book is a series of letters written
    between the archangel Michael and the fallen archangel Lucifer.  It is
    one of the most interesting and thought provoking books I have ever
    read; from both a religious standpoint and a sf/fantasy one.
    
    Taylor Caldwell is primarily known for her excellent Christian fiction
    and this is no exception.  This book, in the letters, Michael and
    Lucifer speak of peoples on other worlds.  God has created them all.
    Each of these civilizations are very different and most amazing and
    beautiful and different ways.  Some Lucifer has brought to their own
    destruction (they discuss how he tempted them and delighted in their
    downfall).  Others are new and not yet invaded by the serpent (they
    discuss how Lucifer will undoubtedly try to win them and how Michael
    hopes they can withstand him and temptation.
    
    The key struggle in this book is over Earth.  It is Earth that enrages
    Lucifer the most.  Though Lucifer hates all other beings made by God
    (because they are not worthy of Him) he hates the humanity of Earth the
    most.  Why?  Because God came among them as Jesus the Christ.  He
    rushes to bring Earth to destruction as punishment of their sin of
    killing God and to prove to God that He was wrong in creating such
    lowly beings.
    
    The discussions are truly *fascinating*.  The explanation of Lucifer's
    fall as not the result of evil but overzealous love/pride is different
    than anything else I've read.  The tour of hell and its appropriateness
    in terms of punishments is the best since Dante's Inferno.
    
    I encourage anyone with even a remote interest in this area to READ
    this book(oh the title just came to me "Conversations with Lucifer")!
    
    Tricia
    P.S.  I have talked myself into re-reading this for the umpteenth time!
    

    Re .114:
    
    I recall reading this many years ago.  Yes, it's interesting.  Doesn't
    Michael address Satan as "Luciel" or something like that?
    
       "The explanation of Lucifer's fall as not the result of evil but 
        overzealous love/pride is different than anything else I've read."
    
    You'd get an argument from many over calling pride "not evil."  In the
    "standard model," Lucifer's fall is due to pride, but Caldwell's
    version certainly does give it a different slant.  Usually, Lucifer's
    pride is supposed to show up in an attempted coup, in which he tries to
    seize God's throne (from Isaiah 14:13-14, addressed to the king of
    Babylon, but taken as applying to Satan: "But you said in your heart,
    `I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of
    God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the
    north.  I will ascend about the heights of the clouds; I will make
    myself like the Most High.'")
    
    Here, Lucifer's pride shows up as jealousy or something like it.  This
    is reminiscent of the Moslem tale of Satan's fall: God commands the 
    angels and djinni to bow down to the newly-created Adam, but Iblis
    (~Satan) refuses, saying, "You have made him of clay, but me of fire."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    well, what I meant was that though pride is a sin, this portrayal aof
    Lucifer was not one driven to be the opposite of God but loved God too
    much and became twisted.  He thought he knew best and came to believe
    in his vision, not God's.
    
    Tricia

    I finally have the name of the book right, if anyone is
    interested...it's called "Dialogues with the Devil"  (I just finished
    re-reading it!)

    I loved Caldwell's various "chats with the devil" books; while
    "Dialogues" is the only one in which it's the central focus, there are
    others - "The Listener," about a shrine in which people tell their
    troubles to 'The Listener,' who is Christ, and in which Satan
    occasionally shows up to make trouble; a sequel to "The Listener," the
    title of which I can't recall; and, my favorite, "Grandmother and the
    Priests," which is a collection of short stories in the realm of
    "Christian fantasy," with lots of personal appearances by the devil. 
    
    Despite the fact that I enjoyed these books very much, I must admit
    that their depiction of Satan (and the archangels, etc.) is highly
    romanticized - not necessarily a bad thing in this cynical age, but I
    can't recommend them as solid Christian theology. ;-)
    
    A great compare-and-contrast discussion could be had using Caldwell's
    "Dialogues," Twain's "Letters to the Earth," and perhaps C. S. Lewis'
    "The Great Divorce" (Satan doesn't have any lines in that, but the
    descriptions of heaven vs. hell are fascinating).
    
    -b

Re .118:

   `A great compare-and-contrast discussion could be had using Caldwell's
    "Dialogues," Twain's "Letters to the Earth," and perhaps C. S. Lewis'
    "The Great Divorce" (Satan doesn't have any lines in that, but the
    descriptions of heaven vs. hell are fascinating).'

We could, perhaps, assume that the devils of Lewis's "Great Divorce" are like 
the devils of his "Screwtape Letters."  In fact, that might be a better basis 
for comparison, since "Screwtape Letters," "Dialogues with the Devil," and 
"Letters from the Earth" (it is "from," not "to," isn't it?) are all 
epistolary stories with The Devil or a devil as a correspondent.

One thing all three devils have in common is a great contempt of humanity.

As I recall the fragments I read of Twain, his Satan's contempt is provoked by 
humanity's folly in running its own affairs *combined* with its sense of 
cosmic importance to God.  (For, according to Twain's Satan, the universe is a 
deistic one; God is barely aware that humans exist and not at all interested 
in their fate or in hearing their prayers.  Perhaps I misremember.)

I forget just why Caldwell's Luciel was first upset with humanity, but he 
busies himself getting us into trouble, corrupting us (apparently) to prove to 
God how corruptible and worthless we are.  He seems, in my memory, jealous of 
God's love for humanity.

Lewis's Screwtape and his associated devils have a much simpler motive for 
corrupting humans: they want our souls for food, and of course the saved souls 
are inaccessible to them; only the damned are available for consumption.  
Screwtape holds humans in contempt simply because, being an evil spirit, he is 
first and foremost selfish; he hates and denigrates everyone and everything -- 
humanity, God, other devils (so long as they are not too dangerous to 
denigrate in writing).

(For those who haven't read them, "The Screwtape Letters" are a series of 
letters -- interoffice memos, perhaps -- from Screwtape, a senior devil, to 
his nephew Wormwood, a junior tempter on his first tour of duty on Earth.  The 
main subject of the letters is advice to Wormwood on how to corrupt his 
"patient," a young English man in the early years of World War II.)

While I think all three authors intended to put a lot of truth into their 
devils' jaundiced views of humanity, it's clear that Caldwell and Lewis do not 
mean the demonic judgement to be the correct or final one; there's more to 
human worth, or at least more to the human situation, than their devils wish 
to admit.  Twain, so far as I can remember him, seems to agree with his Satan. 
Perhaps I do him an injustice; I never read all the "Letters from Earth."

Does Twain's Satan prside over any kind of hell?  The hells of Caldwell and 
Lewis are markedly different.

Caldwell's hell, at least in part, was a false utopia -- beautiful cities full
of great art and science, inhabited by beautiful people from thousands of
planets, yet all of them choking with misery and despair.  This is consonant 
with Luciel's goal of demonstrating our worthlessness: show us at our best and 
then show our best is manifestly not good enough.

Lewis does not give an imaginative picture of hell in "The Screwtape Letters," 
but he does in "The Great Divorce."  It looks like a slum of infinite extent, 
under a perpetual drizzle, on a perpetual late evening.  The damned can create 
houses for themselves just by imagining them, but they are mere illusion and 
don't keep out the rain.  Since the damned are damnable, they quarrel a lot 
with each other and keep moving apart, so that the vast bulk of the phantom 
houses are empty.

By contrast, heaven (or its outskirts) is depicted as a bright and dewy 
wilderness paradise of meadows and forest, perpetually at the moment before 
sunrise.  The damned can come and visit, if they like, and, if they like, they 
can even stay.  (In that case, they can call the infinite slum purgatory, not 
hell.)  However, very few of them choose to stay, for various interesting
reasons.

The dawn and dusk of heaven and hell are not, however, entirely perpetual.  At 
doomsday, day will dawn in the one and night will fall in the other.  There 
are anxious rumors among the damned that, at nightfall, "They" will come out.
The viewpoint character can get no clear account of "Them" but one guesses 
"They" are the devils.  

Perhaps, like Screwtape & Co., they will emerge to feed.  This would accord
with one scene of a soul destroying itself.  This man is so far gone into 
hypocrisy that his ghost has split into a dwarfish true self and a much larger 
phantom of pretense, operated by the dwarf like a puppet.  But the more the 
dwarf works the puppet, the smaller he gets, being slowly absorbed into the
puppet.

Lewis's picture of hell delivers a different message: damnation as the natural 
consequence of refusing grace.

Obviously, I can remember Lewis's stuff better than Caldwell's or Twain's.  
Anyone want to supply my deficiences on the other two authors?

Earl Wajenberg

    Good descriptions, Earl!!
    
    I haven't read the Lewis books or Twains' (I've never even heard of
    Twain's; was it not a "commercial" success?)
    
    Caldwell's Lucifer is out to prove how wrong God was in creating
    mankind and bestowing upon him the same gift God gave to the angels
    i.e. Free Will.  Man does not deserve the gift...see what he does with
    it?!?  He listens to the voice of evil (lucifer) countless times over
    the voice of God.  And the humanity that happens to inhabit Terra, they
    committed the greatest evil of all, killing God in the person of His
    Son.  Lucifer's love of God has become a jealous, twisted love.  He
    cannot accept not knowing God's reasons for creating man, giving him
    free will, and *loving* such a creature that continues to reject him. 
    He will PROVE that his attitude towards man is the correct one, not
    God's.
    
    I have always thought Caldwell's Hell to be very interesting and
    seemingly "true to life".  Man (at his worst) is envious, gluttonous,
    and corrupt.  For those who always envied the talents of others and
    wanted their perfecttion for their own, they are condemned to an
    eternity of perfection.  Rows and rows of painter, sculptors, and
    musicians all painting/sculpting/playing identical, perfect
    masterpeices.  No flaw exists to make one distinct from another.  All
    are the same exact perfection.  The cities are full of palaces, food,
    wine, money, possessions and demons for sexual pleaure.  Constant,
    non-stop and everyone having whatever they want immediately. 
    Scientists work to create new horrors to tempt men.  (This amuses
    Lucifer immensely)  And finally, when men are so satiated with
    pleasure, they beg for pain and torture because it is different and nto
    the same.
    
    Heaven is not quite what we tritely hope it will be (I'll know
    everything there; all my questions will be answered, etc.)  There too,
    the soul must contiue to strive and be challenged.  When one project is
    finished there is another waiting to be worked on.  The sould *needs*
    to be challenged and forever questing if it is to be really happy. 
    Artists create the land for new worlds that God creates,  musicians
    compose new and wonderful music and compete with each other, etc. 
    Never is there a final end, to do that would to end the quest and make
    Heaven like Hell.
    
    Really fascinating concepts IMHO.
    
    Tricia

    
    By Twain's request, _Letters from the Earth_ wasn't published 
    until after he had been dead for 50(?) years. Twain
    wrote the book when he was an embittered old man and (perhaps)
    even he thought he might have gone a bit far.
    
    

    	This is reminiscent of THE TWILIGHT ZONE (original series) episode
    where a petty criminal dies and ends up in what he thinks is Heaven:
    He can push around diminutive cops, he goes gambling and wins a fortune,
    and is constantly chased after by beautiful women.  When this good luck
    keeps on happening with no end in sight, he gets frustrated and asks
    the person who seems to be in charge of the place to send him to Hell
    for a change of pace.  The person responds to the effect:  "Where do 
    you think you are now?!"  The classic TZ twist ending.
    
	Larry
                         

re .20
    
>    	More years ago than I care to remember I read a short story
>    that I think was titled 'The Man'.
    
    The short story, 'The Man', is from "The Illustrated Man" by Ray
    Bradbury and is almost certainly that described.