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Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

1226.0. "Niven - Ringworld" by XCUSME::SAPP (Random Kindness/Senseless Acts Beauty) Thu May 26 1994 18:33

    I just recently purchased this book.  Could someone tell what to expect
    from this book?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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1226.1Why don't you get someone to read them to you?TROOA::SKEOCHWearing my Alpha Performance briefs!Thu May 26 1994 19:520
1226.2Fairly enjoyableQUARRY::petertrigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertaintyThu May 26 1994 20:5310
It's been a long time.  Fairly hard-science book concerning Luis Wu's 
exploration of the Ringworld, which is based on the concept of Dyson
spheres, but is a single band instead of a complete sphere.  Hard-science
qualifier is based on Niven's having a good background in physics, but
requires suspension of disbelief in a number of things we certainly 
can only speculate as being remotely feasible.  A pretty decent read from
what I remember.  I think my reference to Luis Wu is correct, but then
I may be remembering him from some other book and placing him here.

PeterT
1226.3Ringworld's relative, the Pokrovsky ShellMTWAIN::KLAESKeep Looking UpThu May 26 1994 21:44157
Article: 59543
From: sasha@eris.cs.umb.edu (Alexander Chislenko)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.planetarium,sci.astro,alt.extropians
Subject: Dyson Sphere, RingWorld, Pokrovsky Shell...
Date: 26 May 1994 04:52:01 GMT
Organization: Institute of Memetic Engineering
 
   My Netnews clipping agent mailed me a message from rec.arts.startrek.misc
with a question "What is a Dyson sphere?", and I would like to share my 
earlier post on the extropian mailing list regarding such constructs.

   Actually, the idea of building a sphere around a star as a new life habitat 
suggested originally by Freeman Dyson, has too many flaws to be taken
seriously (for one thing, it would immediately collapse...), so below I'll
discuss the RingWorld/Pokrovsky Shell suggestion.
 
  [ I also want to note that, despite my criticism of the concepts, I have
  enormous respect to work of their authors, and Dyson personally ]
 
  I hope this isn't too heavy for startrek fans...
  It's still not science, just popular parascience.
  But you have to understand those things if you want to hope that your
ideas about the future make any sense.
 
  Anyway, here it goes:
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
      / The desire to reach the stars can be the cradle of
        Extropian spirit, but we can't always live in the cradle /
 
      / Extropians should spend their fuel launching memes /
   
		   				- Alexander Chislenko
 
   
   This is my belated answer to the question of whether the RingWorld
- a system of rings around the Sun to collect its energy and host
humans - is a useful and technologically sound idea.
 
 General design
 --------------
 
  I describe here my understanding of the Pokrovsky Shell suggestion.
I believe RingWorld whatever it is isn't that different.
 
    Let's imagine a ring construct a bit wider than the Earth's orbit,
10 km wide and thick enough to host some equipment, housing, etc.
It forms a perfect circular orbit around the Sun.
    Then we make another ring, just like this, but a few kilometers wider,
and orbiting under a sligtly different angle. And another...
The rings will overlap at one point, partially overlap close to it, and
will lie at a small distance from each other in the middle.
The whole thing looks like a gigantic shell with 2 openings (good for
spaceships).
  The rings will NOT completely hide the whole star from the outside
observer, since complete covering in the 'middle' of the rings would mean
wasteful overlaps everywhere else.
 
  Stability and safety.
  ---------------------
 
  Let's consider one ring.
We can't make it perfectly round, just *close*.
Now, a piece that is a bit closer to the Sun, should move a bit faster,
and vice versa.  Otherwise, closer parts will start falling in the moment
we put the ring in orbit, and other parts will start falling out.
No way the ring can be strong enough to resist it.
The orbit can not be made perfectly round, and even if it was, there are
many enough distortions in the gravity field to ensure the ring's instability.
   So it is absolutely necessary to make rings elastic and design an
extremely sophisticated active position-control system.
So our ring will snake thru space, bending and stretching, with its engines
constantly on.
   I am not sure the captured solar energy will be sufficient for these
tasks, but I would definitely recommend not placing any valuable objects,
including other rings, any close to such unstable and mobile construct.
 
  Meteorite protection.
 
The Ringworld will need all the materials of the asteroid belt, and a good
portion of the planetary material to construct.  Asteroids can be a better
source of material since their lower gravity makes them easier to take apart.
However, there will be left trillions of small stones (with size between 0
and, say, 10 meters), that are too small to be of interest as materials.
With their speeds of tens of kilometers per second, however, they are deadly
dangerous for the rings (which do not have any atmosphere to protect them).
No material can be strong enough to withstand a hit of even a relatively
small pebble.
  The only working protection I can think of is an SDI-like system that
would constantly watch the surroundings of every ring for the tiniest stones
and immediately reduce them to dust with laser beams or whatever.
Not an easy task. Also, it may have to use a considerable portion of the
ring's energy balance (if it has any surplus left after the position-
correcting expenses).
 
   Good habitat?
   -------------
 
   Oh, just one more energy-consuming thing:
We'll need lots of rotating cameras within the ring to provide artificial
gravity for humans, animals [?] and plants.
 
   We should also remember that the ring will lack many of conventional
niceties of our Earth: blue skies, mountains, oceans, rivers and lakes,
clouds, rains and snows, highways and many other things that make our
lives what they are.
   However, rings will provide MORE LIVING SPACE - and this is one of the
two major purposes they are needed for.  And more living space is absolutely
necessary for the multiplying human race.
   IMHO, though, it's much easier to teach humans proper use of condoms to
limit their *thoughtless* multiplication than to colonize the solar system
and persuade the same humans to abandon their natural habitats.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Also, lots of human activities require spatial proximity of their
participants and lots of other objects.  This clusterization tendency by
itself will make sure that people will live in 3-D clusters, and leave
the rings for energy collection only.
Flat habitats just won't work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   Energy collection.
   ------------------
 
This is the second (after large living space) - and the last - most
important argument for ring construction.
 
  So far, I came to the conclusion that people will rather live in isolated
3-D constructs (and most stay on Earth and, maybe, a couple of terraformed
other planets).   Rings can be left much leaner and serve for energy
collection only.
 
  Still, the rings may collect a lot more energy than we can now find from
any other source, and will still be very useful after the several centuries
of extremely expensive work, provided no breakthroughs in energy consumption
or generation will be made by that time.
This by itself is a condition that I find more than hard to believe.
 
  Also, whether anybody lives on the rings or not, different parts of the
rings will have [vastly] different energy requirements, which will require
storage and long-distance transmission of energy, probably by lasers.
If these problems are solved, we may be much better off applying the energy
transimission technology to beam the energy straight from the Sun ( or any
other high density energy source we might come up with in the next few
centuries) to bring the energy where we need it.
 
  Which eliminates the last reason for the whole project.
 
			 - - - - -
 
  Still, I think RingWorld is a good and useful suggestion.
 
It represents one of the many stepping stones on the way to understanding
the human destiny, and the simplicity of the original design, together with
the ease of its modelling and visual value, makes it a very good educational
project.  For fifth-graders.

1226.4OKFINE::KENAHEvery old sock meets an old shoe...Thu May 26 1994 21:461
    What to expect?  A great story, wonderfully told!
1226.5TRACTR::SAPPRandom Kindness/Senseless Acts BeautyThu May 26 1994 22:024
    	Thanx, I just wanted to know what I am instored for. I have read
    books by Niven and wanted to get a hold of this.
    
    Thanx a million!!
1226.6To read or not to read, that is the question.ZPOVC::RAHULMEHTAWed Jun 15 1994 10:2813
    Hi there,
    
    I agree with .1
    
    After all why waste the NOTES resources for something you already are
    holding in your hands. You are free to skim through to get an overall
    idea.
    
    Enter your comments after you have read it and start a discussion. Or
    ask before acquiring it.
    
    RM.
    
1226.7tsunami gameSTOWOA::ATHERTONYoucrazyI'mcrazyTue Jan 24 1995 03:199
    
    
    As anyone got the RINGWORLD REVENG of the PATRIAC game yet. I just
    bought it and so far it appears okay. I had a hard time getting started
    but have now reached the Ringworld space dock. If anyone else has the
    game I would be interested to know what you think of it and were you
    are in the game.
    
                 Colin
1226.8you got as far as i did :-)NEMAIL::CARROLLJEven a clown knows when to strikeFri Feb 03 1995 16:3810
    Colin,
    
    	Let me know if you get off the landing port ledge - I can't find
    the last few pieces of the d&#n shuttle craft, and got extremely tired
    of walking for miles and miles.  
    
    	Fwiw, Revenge of the Patriarchy is a considerable improvement over
    the first Ringworld game.
    
    					- Jim
1226.9bribe himSTOWOA::ATHERTONYoucrazyI'mcrazyThu Feb 09 1995 08:248
    
    I got of the landing port ledge by just flying of and landing near a
    
    village. I've talked to the High Priest and had to bribe him with ALE
    
    from the shuttle, thats as far as I've got as of this date.
    
    Read the hint book it helps sometimes.
1226.10engineersSTOWOA::ATHERTONYoucrazyI'mcrazyThu Feb 09 1995 08:328
    
    >>>1226.
    
     Did you read the Book and if so how did you like it????
    
    There is another book about the Ringworld Engineers also very good if
    
    you haen't read it yet buy it and read it, it is good.
1226.11Can't help but wonderMUNDIS::SSHERMANSteve Sherman @MFRMon Feb 13 1995 11:1810
In this Ringworld game, do you have a competitive advantage if you assume
the earth rotates backwards?

And for the record, I consider the Teela Brown gene to be the worst single
idea in the history of science fiction.

Glad to get THAT off my chest.

Steve
(initially a Niven fan, but he lost me with The Ringworld Engineers)
1226.12RT128::KENAHDo we have any peanut butter?Mon Feb 13 1995 14:063
    Refresh my memory -- what was the Teela Brown gene?
    
    					andrew
1226.13LuckREGENT::BROOMHEADDon't panic -- yet.Mon Feb 13 1995 14:320
1226.14In Pheasant lane mall, Nashua NH USARUSURE::MELVINTen Zero, Eleven Zero Zero by Zero 2Wed Jun 05 1996 21:165
I just saw a hardcopy of a book called The Ringworld Throne, which apparently
is a follow on to the Ringworld Engineers.

-Joe
1226.15GIDDAY::BURTS.I.S.Thu Jun 06 1996 01:592
Yay!

1226.16New Larry Niven book is out....WMOIS::CARROLLFri Jun 06 1997 00:335
    
    Niven's latest - _Destiny's Road_ is out - first 100 pp are entertaining -
    I'll post a decent review when I finish...
    
  	- Jimbo