Conference noted::sf

    Even in the USA, the line between governments and corporations only
    looks nice and solid when you're not doing anything which crosses it. 
    
    The cyberpunks I've read were pretty straightforwardly extrapolating
    from the "paranoia" which any student of the CIA may reasonably feel,
    and from Japanese coporate loyalties.  Since both the CIA and the
    "Japanese way of working" were on the upswing during the '80s, I can
    understand their interest.
    
    Obviously they got off on the violence, but I think they justify it in
    sf terms.  The easy violence wasn't aimed at nice middle class mallrats
    but at slum-dwellers, "criminal types", and whistleblowers.  Sounds
    like real life to me.
    
    Ray

There's also the bottom line of getting someone to buy your book. Little House
on the Martian Prairie isn't going to attract the average (usually young
male?) SF reader. 

I believe the "lone cowpoke" image is also valid. It's the mythos of the USA
and attractive just for that reason. The whole world loves cowboys and the
instant karma of Colt justice. That's what TOS is in a "pretty" future and
what "Mad max" is in an ugly one. 

"Catspaw" by DeVinge does a credible combo of corporate world and cyberspace
that seems (after suspension of disbelief) resonable. Given my own addiction
to the net I can relate to characters that have lost themselves in cyberspace.
It's an addictive world even now. Just imagine a few technological advances 
that would allow you to immerse yourself in the net. 

The big question in the corporate world future would be whether the technocrats
would be loyal to the corporation or to the net. liesl

    
    Curious... Out of all the SF material you've personally experienced 
    which material do you see as a possiblity for our future? 
    
    Mad Max     ... Anarchic Society with the theme of kill or be killed.
    
    Star Trek   ... Progressive Technology.
    
    To me it could be either. It all depends on what happens today. If
    the bombs start flying and everything is destroyed I envision a fight
    or die type future. People trying to find food and water that isn't
    effected by nuclear fall out. People killing neighbors for the family
    cat for supper... a very depressing future indeed. I'm sure the 
    government will probably still be in power but only in distant and 
    remote areas. With time their forces will slowly grow because they 
    will have capitalized on the clean food and water.
    
    OR
    
    A Star Trek type future where we go beyond where no man has gone 
    before...
    
    Please tell me your thoughts of OUR future...

    Personally, I find Asimov's future worlds most believable. Humanity
    will grow technologically, yet still remain caught between the Mad Max
    and the Star Trek possibilities.
    
    So far, throughout history, the study of issues related to technology
    (which is in turn related to comfort and an easy way of life for the
    majority) has proved of far more interest to us than the study of
    issues related to sociology. So long as this continues, the Star Trek
    outcome will remain unreachable, while the Mad Max outcome will remain
    at bay due to the efforts of those people who strive to avert it.
    
    Just my thoughts on the matter.
    
    
    Dave Hazel

    As an aside, what does the title of this topic allude to. A book title?
    A film title? Popular expression?
    
    I ask this because I was completely surprised by the content of the
    discussion going on. Not that it's not fascinating, but I could not
    realy relate the two.
    
    Would someone explain, or should the title be changed for dimwits like
    me?
    
    Wildrik
    -------
    

    Just an aside - I think Raytheon, rather than Digital, is
    Massachusetts' largest employer.  I'm not sure if this is by headcount
    or revenues.
    
    len.
    

    re: .-2
    
    The title referred to the topic in the base note, which was how
    the US gov't seems to disappear in a lot of near-future novels.  /jlr

For an interesting (IMHO) angle on this one, read the Chtorr series by
David Gerrold.  Books 1 and 2 are from the point of view of someone working
with the "Feds" trying to re-establish control after society falls apart
(no spoilers), while book 3 deals in large part from the point of view
of one of the gangs outside of the control of the "Feds".  This is an
interesting way of merging the two concepts:  from certain people's point
of view the government is still present and functioning, though admittedly
not as well as before.  But from other people's point of view, the government
is totally non-functional because they are outside of the area where it is
strong.

Keep in mind that in the Mad Max movies (specifically # 2) people had the
idea that even though things were totally out of control where they were,
other places were safer (ie, on the coast where they were going at the end
of the movie).  We don't know that there was not a functioning government
which was slowly expanding it's currently limited sphere of influence.


But as an aside, which may need to be a separate topic, I have a different
observation on "general themes in near-term science fiction".  One thing
that seems extremely common, whether in things-as-they-are scenarios or
in post-apocalyptic scenarios, is that the inner cities are lawless ghettos.
Specifically, the inner cities have gone completely to pot, with all of the
businesses and people with jobs moving out to somewhere else, and nothing
left in the inner city but violent gangs and their poverty stricken victims.

Examples are legion, but include:

1) Max Headroom TV series (contrast the places where Edison and Theora live
   and the conditions of the Network 23 tower, with the lives of the Blanks)
2) Stephen King's Running Man novelette and movie (the novelette I think did
   a better job of showing the despair and pain of the inner-city dweller,
   but the movie did a good job showing the disparity between the viewers
   of the television show and the conditions inside the "playing field")
3) Most cyberpunk fiction, but specifically the Sprawl stories by Gibson

What dis-heartens me about this is that I see the trends which will bring
this about occuring as we speak.  Everytime the US Council of Mayors speaks
about the deteriorating conditions of their cities, while a *huge* percentage
of the people who can are fleeing the inner city to move to suburbs, and 
noting that (here in Palm Beach County FL) some of the new planned communities
have high walls and gates around the entire community, with 24 hour patrols
and resident's stickers required, I wonder if this isn't happening as we speak.

-- Ken Moreau

Ken, I think it *is* happening as we speak which is why it's such a common SF
scenerio. Remember that movie where NY is a prison? Perhaps the inner city will
become the future's version of Austrailia. But hey, that worked out OK in the
end. Come to think of it, I've read a number of books where entire planets have
been made penal colonies. Of course, that doesn't take much imagination, it's
just a rehash of how the rich and powerful have always dealt with problems of
the people kind. Head em up, move em out. 

I believe the real test of an author's imagination will be to come up with a
future that seems possible and pleasant given today's trends. And to make it
a good read of course. I love ST but I can't say I see it as a likely future.
liesl

>I believe the real test of an author's imagination will be to come up with a
>future that seems possible and pleasant given today's trends. And to make it
>a good read of course.
    
    Arthur C. Clarke has done this with some success.  Several of his
    novels have stable, prosperous organized societies.
    
    					andrew

    
    re: .8
    
    yeah, read chtorr if you dont mind a non finished series. ive been
    waiting years for the next book :'(.
    
    i think with the amount of money the govt is putting into defense
    compared to the space program, we're never going anyplace very quickly. 
    we need to resolve our problems on earth before we can look to the
    stars and though it may come to pass, i dont think it will be for a
    long time.  we have more of a chance of going into a mad max type of
    civilization with all the violence and the gangs andour problems with
    other nations.  if we all worked together we might actually accomplish
    something other than building new missiles and planes.  right now, this
    is our only planet, it's really too bad we're such a destructive race.
    
    

    Rob,
    
    I think a lot of people are beginning to think like you.  The 80's were
    the decade that showed the foolishness of spending on the military.  In
    the 90's I think we will see a VASTLY reduced defense infrastructure.
    
    It really bugs me however that Bush wants 15 more B-2's funded @ $800M
    a pop and we can only find $4M to fund the NASP (national aerospace
    plane, X-30, single stage to orbit).
    
    Tony

    
    
    I have to admit, I didn't always think this way and it was just very
    recently that I opened my eyes to what was happening, but the more
    people that are aware, the better our world will be.
    
    I know what you meant about the X-30, I was just reading about that in
    Popular Science the other day.  Too bad we just couldn't (scrap earth
    'old_ships) and (build earth b2 5 0) eh?  :')
    
    

    re: future scenarios of abandoned inner cities
    
    This does seem to be a popular future, perhaps because SF is one
    of the few art forms practiced by suburbanites.  Its writers are
    generally white and middle-class, and left the city long ago. 
    Like most middle-class whites, they're repelled by the stories of
    crime and decay that they see on television, and are glad that
    they don't face it out in their neighborhoods.
    
    Historically, though, art has come out of the city, not the
    country.  Think of where music gets played and composed.   Are
    there distinctive suburban musical styles, even after fifty years
    of suburban development?  Think of where paintings get displayed
    and sold, and where drama (theater, film, TV) gets performed and
    created.  All these take high concentrations of people,
    higher than one usually gets in a suburb.
    
    Writing is an exception, perhaps because it's an individual, not
    group, activity.  Fiction writers can live almost anywhere. 
    Non-fiction writers (including essayists and critics) still seem
    to be concentrated in cities, perhaps because they thrive on
    salon atmospheres.
    
    But does it have to be this way for any art form?  Maybe not, with
    better communications.  Notes files are electronic salons,
    although there has yet to be an equivalent to the Lunar Society or
    the Algonquin Roundtable.  It could come.  Through Notes you're
    free to seek out the company of the like-minded without having to
    rely on geographic proximity.  You can write for as long as you
    like (maybe too long in the case of this message) without being
    interrupted by the more aggressive conversationalists.  You can
    be specific or general, succinct or rambling, and if others get
    bored, there's always Next Unseen.
    
    Notes are just the start.  What happens when phones become as
    clear as CDs?  You wouldn't have to go anywhere to find someone
    to play music with, nor to find live music to listen to.  What
    happens with good HDTV?  You don't have to go anywhere to visit
    an art gallery, although you would still want to actually have any
    paintings you really like.
    
    But this vast investment in communcations technology would just
    bring us back to where city-dwellers are today.  At great expense
    we would get back the presence and immediacy that we already have
    with live music, art, and drama.
    
    [Digression: I wonder if, in fact, part of the economic problems
    of cities are due to a very expensive communications technology
    that they've been called upon to fund, namely highways.  These
    roads cost tens of millions per mile to build, and a lot of the
    money comes from general revenues, namely city-dwelling
    tax-payers.  They mainly benefit suburban commuters and truckers. 
    It's income transfer from the cities to the suburbs.  If anyone
    has the numbers, I'd be interested to see what fraction of the
    total government capital investment goes into roads.]

    This sort of comm technology is a classic example of a
    technological fix to a social problem: namely, getting the
    cultural benefits of city life without having to mix with the
    poor and criminal.  The answer is obviously to have less poor and
    fewer criminals, but that's about as useful as saying the answer
    is 42.  A useful answer would be real meat for an SF story, as
    opposed to the techno-fix proposed above.
    
    /jlr

    re .14, minor point
    
    Isn't the highway system funded in two ways:
    
    o	Initially as part of the defense program, to allow rapid
    	movement of people and goods in times of war or preparation
    	for war (this is the initial build-up of the interstate
    	system, which was explicitly modelled on Germany's highway
    	system);
    
    o	Currently by gasoline and diesel fuel taxes, which are a
    	rough approximation to a user fee.
    
    I don't believe there is a substantial movement of tax funds
    out of cities to pay for highways.
    
    As for the main topic, Joel Garreau has written a non-fiction
    book called something like "Living on the Edge", in which he
    claims that the cultural "cityness" you refer too is in the 
    process of moving out from the old urban cores.  He previously
    wrote a book "The Nine Nations of North America" which would
    be a great source of background for SF plots.  (Note: Joel
    Garreau is a journalist, not an SF author).
    
    		-John Bishop

    minor nit to .15's minor nit of .14
    
    Yes the highway system was initially justified as part of the defense
    program.  It is kind of hard to imagine how downtown freeways fit in a
    defense arguement however.  It is the 'INTERSTATE' system that was for
    defense.  Those cross state highways were to provide rapid mobility.  
    
    Currently the Federal portion of highways is funded by fuel taxes.  The
    Federal portion is 80% (or 90%, possibly, but I think 80) of the total. 
    There is no common definition where local matching funds come from. 
    
    Tony

    re: .15 and "The Nine Nations of North America"
    
    If North America were ever to break up, it would probably be along
    the lines Garreau described.  Quebec seems to be on the edge
    of secession already, but I suppose it has been since Wolfe
    defeated Montcalm.  There are lots of satirical possibilities in
    imagining what Ecotopia or Dixie or the Empty Quarter would be
    like on their own.  I've heard of a post-apocalypse RPG, in fact,
    where the a Jim Bakker type runs the South and AT&T runs New
    England.
    
    If you're interested in this sort of cultural categorization, you
    should pick up "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America"
    by David Hackett Fischer.  It's a fascinating historical study of
    four initial groups of immigrants to the US: the Puritans (New
    England), the Cavaliers (Virginia), the Quakers (the Delaware
    Valley), and the Border People (the South in general).  Each came
    from a different part of Britain and brought a distinct set of
    customs and attitudes with them.  Aside from English and
    Protestantism they seemed to have hardly anything in common,
    but you can see how their beliefs have shaped the country.
    
    /jlr

    re .8
    
    For example "Oath of Fealty(sp?)"
    
    re .0
    
    Read Robert Nozick's philosophical treatise "Utopia, State and
    Anarchy". In this none easy read, he proves that in the absence of
    government, various protection combines will arise which will lead at
    somepoint to the minimal State, i.e. the state that acts as cop and
    watchman but little else ( no welfare or redistribution).
    
    Conan The Librarian
    

    re: .-1
    
    Governments disappear all the time.  We've seen several big ones vanish in
    just the last couple of years.  I'm hard-pressed, though, to
    think of a case where private protection agencies arose to take
    their place and maintain civil order.  In what way, then, can
    Nozick prove that such agencies will arise in the absence of
    government?   It doesn't seem to have actually ever happened.   /jlr

    re .-1, .-2
    
    San Francisco 1873. The town had been run by gangsters and gunman for
    some time.  The good folks finally got tired of it and formed a
    vigilante posse cometatus and hanged the bad guys. They then installed
    a proper civil government and a legal police force.
    
    

    
    Perhaps the Pinkertons (private security agency), who were
    used as strikebreakers?
    
    E.

    re: .20

    It sounds like the citizens of San Francisco replaced a private
    security force (namely the mobsters to whom you paid protection
    money) with a public force, namely police.  Isn't Nozick talking
    about going the other way?  
    
    [digression: apparently the only police department in the US that
    is not under direct political control is in Los Angeles.  In the
    fifties, reformers were able to get civil service tenure for the
    police commisioner.  This was intended to eliminate patronage
    appointments.  The result, though, was that the police became
    accountable to no one.  This is why Daryl Gates has been able to
    hang on as commisioner in spite of universal condemnation.  Given
    the disastrous riots there, I expect to see commisioner tenure
    disappear.] 
    
    /jlr

    re .-1
    
    There is a difference between paying protection (i.e. to thug
    extortionists) and paying for protection (e.g. rent-a-cop). In the
    first instance the failure to pay means violent retaliation and in the
    second instance failure to pay means you don't get the protection.
    
    Nozic "proved" that in an anarchic society with several protection
    agencies and potential disputes among them, the problem would be
    resolved by instituting an adjucating agency which would be defacto a
    minimal government. Nozic's argument is very convoluted and it has not
    been shown that all of his assumptions are factually substantiated. 
    
    I will review Nozic's book and open up a topic on Anarchism (if it does
    not already exist) in the PHILOSOPHY conference where it more properly
    belongs. Look there for Nozic stuff in the not too distant future.
    
    --Conan the Librarian--
    
    P.S. Maybe the Objectivists will be pertubed :>))-ha ha.
     

    re: the base note
    
    I was in a bookstore in Kansas City recently and counted not one, not two,
    but six action series set in a post-nuclear apocalypse world. 
    And this was in the new books section.  Mithra knows how many are
    already running.  They were all of the form
    lone-hero-must-survive-in-newly-savage-world.  I only recognized
    one author, William Johnston, who did very funny (to a teenager)
    Get Smart novelizations in the sixties.
    
    I haven't seen these series in Boston-area bookstores.  We also don't
    see many Westerns out here, but there were plenty on the shelves
    there.   Their readership probably overlaps.  They are to men
    what Harlequin Romances are to women: anonymously written and
    formulaic. 
    
    I talked for a bit with the owner.  He said that he didn't sell
    much SF any more; it was mostly fantasy and horror.  Even a novel
    like "Stations of the Tide", which just won the Nebula, didn't
    move much.  He had an excellent back stock of SF, though, probably
    out of sentimental preference.  I suspect that SF is becoming an
    adult taste, and adults don't have time to read much. 
    
    /jlr

    I've seen these various series in Boston-area bookstores, but they
    are more often found in the "Adventure Series" section (along with
    paramilitary series, The Executioner, Nick Carter, ad nauseum)
    rather than the sf section.
    
    --- jerry