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Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

933.0. "John Brunner general discussion" by SNIPER::HNELSON (Evolution in action) Tue Nov 20 1990 16:38

    I'm dumfounded by how little discussion of John Brunner there is in
    this conference, and would like to nominate this note as a place for
    Brunner fans to wax eloquent.
    
    I've recently read "Stand on Zanzibar" and "Shock-wave Rider" and found
    them both excellent. Great writing, great ideas. I think Brunner was
    writing cyberpunk well in advance of Gibson etc. I also read "The Whole
    Man", which was mediocre, I thought. I'm now starting "The Sheep Look
    Up." I think Brunner does a great job of projecting trends into the
    near-future. I think he does a wonderful job of making us care about
    the people in his worlds, particularly the hungry, the alientated, etc.
    Race figures largely in his books, and I find his treatment insightful.
    
    He's written a great many books, practically none of which is
    available in the bookstores. Even the scifi specialty store in Harvard
    Square only had the few I've mentioned here. A friend tells me that
    Brunner has always been good at the business side of writing, and may
    be sufficiently well-off to no longer HAVE to write.
    
    Anybody else like this writer? The little I've read so far has placed
    him at the top of my favorites list, along with Niven and Varley.
    
    - Hoyt
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933.1NEWOA::BAILEYpink Cadillac/VMSTue Nov 20 1990 19:5013
In his time Brunner was a truly great writer, and most
of his works still shine out even today.. take for
example "The Shockwave Rider" this was written a few
years ago.. but its as topical today as ever it was..

his magnum opus must be "The sheep look up".. a
terrifying novel (and its true horror seems to get closer)
every day.. don't read the book just open the newspaper 



But AVOID at any cost his latest work "Children of the
Thunder" .. a grade B book if ever there was one 
933.2IMHOSNDPIT::SMITHSmoking -> global warming! :+)Tue Nov 20 1990 20:579
    Brunner's works seem to come in two categories, the really-really-good
    and the truly-worthless.  Stand On Zanzibar, The Sheep Look Up, and
    Shockwave Rider are in the first category, but books like The
    Dramaturges Of Yan(?) and a few others are really unreadable.  He
    really does have a knack for extrapolating trends into the near future
    and making you believe them.
    
    Willie
    
933.3uneven outputLABRYS::CONNELLYHouse of the AxeWed Nov 21 1990 04:2015
I read _Stand on Zanzibar_ and _The Jagged Orbit_ (the latter of which, i
think, was the first of his "near-future-extrapolation" books).  To me they
were overly indulgent in melodramatic plot devices (usually involving gory
deaths), although the rapid-fire narrative technique was pretty interesting
for its day (late '60s).  Don't remember much about either now.  The one that
has stayed with me the longest of his books is _The Squares of the City_,
which has one of the ultimate contrived plot devices but which had quite a
few highly sympathetic characters.

He also has done his share of "grade B-" science fiction (i remember liking
a time travel/alternate history novel, _Times Without Number_, about "what
if the Armada had conquered England"), plus the fantasy stories about _The
Traveler in Black_ that some people seem to like.
								paul
933.4SHIRE::TONINATOpizza e pastasciuttaWed Nov 21 1990 07:455
I also read "Stand on Zanzibar" but my prefered is "Crucible of Time". Strange
nobody mentioned it.

GLT
933.5NEWOA::BAILEYpink Cadillac/VMSWed Nov 21 1990 11:5514
          <<< Note 933.4 by SHIRE::TONINATO "pizza e pastasciutta" >>>


>I also read "Stand on Zanzibar" but my prefered is "Crucible of Time". Strange
>nobody mentioned it.



	"Crucible of Time" GAG! 


This is one of the few books that i've never been able to complete..
I found it so boring with such lack of direction that I've never
completed it
933.6I tell you three times...WHELIN::TASCHEREAUSame shift; different pay.Wed Nov 21 1990 12:1411
    
    Stand on Zanzibar, Shockwave Rider and The Sheep Look Up remain
    three of my favorite SF novels. Although I am an avid SF fan, and
    enjoy reading typical SF fare of futuristic space travel, personal 
    flying machines, a truly advanced human species, etc, I long ago
    resigned myself to the fact that the future of humanity will most
    likely parallel these books more than anything else. Time and time
    again I see/hear something that so closely resembles a concept
    from these books that its incredible.
    
    						-Steve
933.7MYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiWed Nov 21 1990 13:517
  Stand on Zanzibar, Shockwave Rider and The Sheep Look Up are also
  the Brunner books I remember.  And if you like this stuff, try reading
  "The End of the Dream" by Philip Wylie.  TEotD makes Brunner look like
  a real optimist.
 
  JP
933.8One True NatureSUBWAY::MAXSONRepeal GravityWed Jan 16 1991 16:408
    John Brunner is a pretty good science fiction writer, but to be honest,
    I think his best work is in fantasy. In particular, "The Traveler in
    Black" (recently enlarged and re-released as "The Compleat Traveler in
    Black") is one of my favorite fantasies. I can't really say that any of
    Brunner's science fiction has had as great an impact.
    
    "So be it", he said, and walked away.
    
933.9My $0.02!!!NYTP07::LAMSun Jan 20 1991 07:342
    My favorite John Brunner novel is "Last Stand on Zanzibar".
    
933.10That's "Stand on Zanzibar"WHOS01::BOWERSDave Bowers @WHOWed Jan 30 1991 19:230
933.12Quite Correct - My Mistake.....NYTP07::LAMFri Feb 01 1991 13:180
933.13The Compleat Traveller in BlackAYOV27::ANDERSONMDuty above all else :: 823-3470Tue Apr 23 1991 06:5310
    I picked up "The Compleat Traveller in Black" in my local library on
    Saturday and started reading it at 23.00 last night.
    
    Didn't get much sleep....
    
    Did get an angry wife.....
    
    Haven't enjoyed a book so much for a long time.
    
    
933.14ReviewsVERGA::KLAESQuo vadimus?Mon Oct 11 1993 21:09166
Article: 396
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews
Subject: REPOST: Belated Reviews PS#9: John Brunner
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: 08 Oct 93 22:06:06 GMT
 
		Belated Reviews PS#9:  John Brunner
 
John Brunner's been unlucky in his forty-year writing career.  He's
frequently written well-accepted novels, but they tend to fall out of
favor and out of print.  (One might argue that luck has little to do with
that.)  There are two particularly identifiable phases in his writing
career.  In the fifties and early sixties, he was turning out numerous
competent space adventures.  And in the late sixties and early seventies,
he was writing near-future socially-oriented fiction.  Both these
generalizations ignore some of his best work. 
 
"The Traveler in Black" (***+) is a personal favorite.  It's a fixup
fantasy novel -- a series of stories set in a time when the universe is
coming out of an age of chaos and magic into one of order and reason.  The
Traveler is the being responsible for this transition.  His main weapons
are the ability to grant wishes, and the dry sense of humor needed to give
a wish its most effective literal interpretation.  (This can take alarming
turns.  He might hear someone yelling "I never want to see you again!" and
use it as an excuse to strike everyone in the city blind.)  A fifth TiB
story appeared in Asimov's SF Adventure Magazine (Fall 1979) -- and was
added to the first four, to be rereleased as "The Compleat Traveler in
Black" -- but I thought it weaker than the others, and unnecessary, as well.
 
"The Long Result" (***+) is placed on a very placid Earth of the future.
Technology is advanced, a couple of experimental colonies have been place
in other solar systems -- no rush, as there is no population or resource
pressure -- and most of today's social problems have been solved.  There
are still lunatic fringes, such as the xenophobic Stars Are For Man League,
which has suddenly become very visible.  Roald Vincent, a senior department
head in the  Bureau of Cultural Relations is living an equally placid life
until everything seems to start happening at once:  A new intelligent
species is encountered, a rash of too-high-tech sabotage breaks out, and
someone tries to murder a representative of a species generally believed to 
be more advanced than Humanity.  Brunner uses this crisis to construct an
interesting low-pressure look at a future Earth that might or might not be
on the verge of a large step towards maturity.
 
(This is actually a theme which runs through most of Brunner's novels, the
early ones as well as the later ones.  His novels tend to be set in
societies which are at crossroads, facing a choice -- of which they might
not be aware -- between maturation and failure.)
 
In the late sixties and early-to-mid seventies, Brunner wrote a series of
very-well-received novels of near-future sf.  I've seen them referred to
as dystopias, but in at least some instances this is inaccurate.  They are
simple projections of social trends which had particularly high profiles
at this time -- the population explosion ("Stand on Zanzibar"), future
shock ("The Shockwave Rider"), pollution and environmental degradation
("The Sheep Look Up"), violence and race hatred ("The Jagged Orbit").
These trends are projected linearly to the early twenty-first century --
forty to fifty years, at the time.  (The linearity is a problem.  Each
near-future world is a jazzed-up world of the sixties, with just one trend
extrapolated.  Most of these books, for instance, are clearly written under
the shadow of the Viet Nam war.)  In some cases, Brunner ends his novels
with science-fictional solutions to real problems, and I hate when that
happens.  By way of analogy, imagine a novel that spends five hundred pages 
dramatizing the energy crisis, and then ends with one of the characters 
announcing the invention of a cheap, safe, portable, fusion-from-sea-water
device.  
 
"Stand on Zanzibar" (***+) is the best of these novels.  The title comes
from an observation that, allowing two square feet for each person, "you
could stand us all on the six hundred forty square mile surface of the
island of Zanzibar."  In other words, a population of some eight billion
by 2010, which was a reasonable mathematical projection in 1968 and still
is today.  (Brunner also projects the population of the US at four hundred
billion, which is *not* reasonable without major changes which he doesn't
show.)  The main effect of this population increase -- aside from the fact
that the economy can barely sustain it -- is psychological:  People have
become obssessed with the population control and eugenics.  Which means
that a third-world country's announcement that it has the ability and the
willingness to genetically improve its next generation has the potential
to trigger tremendous social upheaval.  "Stand on Zanzibar" is the most
honest of Brunner's near-future novels, as well.  He takes pains to
portray a real society, not a one-problem caricature, and the result is
worth reading. 
 
"The Jagged Orbit" (**+) is also highly readable, but the society it
portrays -- of madness, race hatred, and a gun salesman at every corner --
is a bad caricature of late-sixties fears.  "The Shockwave Rider" (**) is
also a caricature, and one that, by its limitations, shows the limitations
of Toffler's "Future Shock".  And some people swear by "The Sheep Look Up"
(*), but I gave up after a hundred pages of pollution and starvation and
mass extinctions and human deaths.
 
John Brunner was a prolific writer of space adventure fiction in the
fifties and sixties.  Much of it was published by Ace (frequently in Ace
Doubles), and was ruthlessly trimmed for page count.  Brunner used his
market clout in the seventies aggressively, to have many of those novels
reissued uncut, under new titles, which has the potential to make shopping
for his books very aggravating.  Virtually all these books were fairly
minor efforts that didn't merit the revision.  Not that some of them don't
still make enjoyable light reads.  Most of these are short by today's
standards, often falling in the 100-150 page range.  
 
"Born Under Mars" (***) is placed on a backwater Mars:  It had been
settled as a prelude to starflight, but the development of ftl travel
caused it to be bypassed.  Since then, the settlers have grown their own
isolated way -- until the intrigues of the interstellar unions converge on
Mars.  A well-written novel, more thoughtful than most of Brunner's
earlier works.
 
Others I enjoyed from this period include "The World Swappers" (**) (a
secret association tries to break an interstellar cultural deadlock while
handling a first contact); "The Day of the Star Cities" (** -- later
expanded to "Age of Miracles") (unknown extra-terrestrials build
impregnable 'cities' on Earth, shattering society in the process, the way
we might shatter some anthills in the process of building a bus terminal);
"Ladder in the Sky" (**), under the pseudonym Keith Woodcott (a gutter-
snipe is possessed by a 'demon', as part of a political plot, and then
abandoned to deal with the consequences); "The Altar on Asconel" (** --
later appearing as part of "Interstellar Empire") (Asconel is one of the
few planets which remained civilized after the collapse of the Empire, but
something has mysteriously reduced it to near-barbarism); "Castaways
World" (** -- later expanded to "Polymath") (a shipload of refugees from a
planet whose star went nova are led by a man whose training would have
made him an expert in colonization -- in a couple of decades); and "The
Skynappers" (**) (would-be rebels have found the ultimate computer, but
can't figure out what questions to ask, so they recruit or kidnap some
primitives, including one from Earth).  All of these and others are solid
books of their kind, though their kind was nothing special even at the time.
 
"The Crucible of Time" (**+) is a more recent book, about an intelligent
alien species on a dying planet:  The planet's system is travelling
through an overly-dusty region of the galaxy, and its inhabitants must
develop the ability to leave it before they are destroyed.  This story of
an alien species' ascent towards technological civilization has much the 
same feel as Forward's "Dragon's Egg":  It's better written, although the 
setting is less exotic and interesting.  I thought it ambitious, but not 
equal to its scope.  John Brunner is also the author of "A Maze of 
Stars" (**), for which I didn't much care, and "Muddle Earth", which 
I'll read when it comes out in second hand.
 
%A  Brunner, John
%T  The Traveller in Black
%T  The Long Result
%T  Stand on Zanzibar
%T  Born Under Mars
%T  The Crucible of Time
 
=============================================================================
 
The postscripts to Belated Reviews cover authors of earlier decades who
didn't fit into the original format -- whether because the author seemed
an inappropriate subject, or because I was unfamiliar with too much of the
author's work, or whatever -- or sometimes just isolated works of such
authors.  The emphasis will continue to be on guiding newer readers
towards books or authors worth trying out, rather than on discussing them
comprehensively or in depth.  I'll retain the rating scheme of ****
(recommended), *** (an old favorite that hasn't aged well), ** (a solid
lesser work), and * (nothing special). 
 
-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com
 
Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser

933.15ARCANA::CONNELLYAack!! Thppft!Wed Oct 13 1993 01:168
It's been a long time since I read any Brunner, but didn't his dystopian
novels (1968-whenever) have specimens of that annoying character that so
frequently haunts Heinlein and Aldous Huxley works--the would-be wise older
character who is a mouthpiece for the author's philosophies?  I seem to
recall either "The Jagged Orbit" or "Stand on Zanzibar" (or both) having
one of those blathering critters.
								- paul
933.16Brunner and SocratesZENDIA::BORSOMWed Oct 13 1993 15:1312
re: .15

 >It's been a long time since I read any Brunner, but didn't his dystopian
 >novels (1968-whenever) have specimens of that annoying character that so
 >frequently haunts Heinlein and Aldous Huxley works--the would-be wise older
 >character who is a mouthpiece for the author's philosophies?

Huxley, Heinlein, & Brunner; all in the fine _old_ tradition of
Socrates and _The_Republic_.

	-doug

933.17RIP?UNXA::BEUTEWe apologize for the inconvenience.Fri Sep 01 1995 13:298

	I saw a note on a Usenet posting in one of the rec.arts.sf
	groups indicating that Brunner had died. Does anyone have
	more information on this?

	Chris

933.18KAOFS::B_ZINNSANITY: a fictional state of mindFri Sep 01 1995 14:105
    Yes...he was in Glasgow for the World Con. Had a massive stroke Friday
    morning, and passed away that afternoon.
    
    Brenda  (just back from Glasgow)
    
933.19Morbid curiousityCRONIC::SHUBSHoward S ShubsWed Sep 06 1995 14:322
Was he at the con at the time, or in his room, or at lunch, or what?  I mean,
was he among fen?
933.20KAOFS::B_ZINNSANITY: a fictional state of mindWed Sep 06 1995 15:187
    My understanding was that he was not at the convention site at the
    time. That would mean he was probably at his hotel.
    
    Samuel Delany started his guest-of-honor speech with a tribute and
    minute of silence, then Robert Silverberg was called upon to do a short
    tribute at the start of the Hugo ceremonies - rather than the silence,
    he called for a standing ovation.