Conference noted::sf

I haven't seen  _Fall_ yet; is it available in paperback?  

I'm dying to find out what's going on, but don't give anything away; please
make liberal use of spoiler warnings.


Thanks,

Ian S.

    re:.0
    
    I don't know why you think "Dan Simmons" is a pseudonym. As far
    as I know, it's his real name.
    
    --- jerry

    re:.1 Oh, I wouldn't give anything away.  I got this book from the
    SFBC with both volumes; I don't know if it's out in paperback or
    not.  I would buy it in hardcover myself considering the way he
    ended _Hyperion_, I couldn't stand waiting either!
    
    re:.2 It's just the way it struck me.  It seems, I don't know, awfully
    plain or something for a SF writer.  Has he written anything else?
    
    helen

    He wrote an excellent mainstream novel called "Phases of Gravity" 
    about a middle-aged astronaut who finally comes to grips with 
    earthbound life.
    
    As for "Hyperion", though, I had mixed feelings about it.  As I 
    mentioned in the note on excessive ordinariness in SF, I thought 
    that the galactic soceity portrayed in it was too 20th century to 
    be plausible.  One of the prime characters, for instance, is a 
    middle-aged English professor at a state university in Iowa, 
    whoops, on Barnard's Star.  I also found the Priest's Tale to be 
    pointlessly gruesome.  
    
    The worst part of the book, though, was the abruptness of the ending.
    The single story seems to have been split into two books, 
    "Hyperion" and "The Fall of Hyperion".
    I don't know if this is Simmons's fault or the publisher's, but 
    it seemed like a sleazy ploy to get one to shell out for the sequel.
    Maybe this is common practice among low-end novels, but 
    "Hyperion" is Hugo and Nebula material.  It's as if "Dune" had 
    been split into two volumes, with the first book ending with
    Paul Atreides stranded in the desert and menaced by sandworms.
    You just don't do that to serious novels.
    
    /jlr    

    re:.3
    
    He's written something else (aside from the Hyperion novels and
    PHASES OF GRAVITY), but specific titles escape me at the moment.
    
    re:.4
    
    Interesting analogy. DUNE originally *was* published in two discreet
    parts -- two separate serials in ANALOG, "Dune World" and "The Prophet
    of Dune". There was something on the order of a year's separation
    between the end of the first and the beginning of the second. In
    fact, when Herbert published DUNE MESSIAH, he thought of that novel
    as being the conclusion of a trilogy (and it was, until Herbert
    decided to write more Dune novels later on).
    
    --- jerry

I believe Simmon's other book is called _The_Song_of_Kali_.

brad

        <<< Note 893.6 by ALAZIF::wherry "Lions and Tigers and Bears" >>>


>I believe Simmon's other book is called _The_Song_of_Kali_.


In which case his other other book is "Carrion Comfort"
(based on the same sort of ideas as "A Plague Of Pythons" 
and "World of Ptavvs"


(IMHO not bad.. 6 out of 10) 

    Both volumes are available in paperback.
    
    Warning, my copy of "The Fall of Hyperion" (and every one I have checked
    in several bookstores) contains a major screwup - a page is missing and
    a previous page is substituted for it.
    
    While the complaints about the "packaging" of the two books (should
    they have published a single 1000 page 4" thick paperback?) and the
    "ordinariness" of the future (c'mon, the future will bear *some*
    resemblance to the present, especially on backwater planets) are
    legitimate, they are really nits when viewed from the perspective of
    the story.  IMHO this is science fiction about as good as it gets.
    
    Unreservedly recommended.
    
    len.
    

    I'll second len's recommendation (Although I haven't read the second
    volume yet.)  I found it one of the best pieces of work I've read in
    recent memory.  I was unable to put it down.  
    
    I love the technique of each person telling his own tale as they
    journey to Hyperion.  I realize it's a ripoff of Chaucer and the
    Canterbury Tales but it was extremely effective nonetheless.  
    
    Incidently Baird Seales reviewed both volume in IASFM and highly
    recemmends them.  Although he did say he hurled the first book across
    the room  when he realized there would be a sequel to finish the saga.
    
    I've read "Phases of Gravity" and enjoyed it quite a bit.  I've been
    unable to locate Song of Kali or Carrion comfort anywhere.  Anyone seen
    them around?
    
    
    						- John

I will third the recommendation for Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion.  Together 
they make one of the best books I've read in a long time.

Dan Simmons is his real name.  I met him at a book signing in Houston some
months back.

Song of Kali was published in paperback and may be out of print.  Check some
used book stores.  It is a horror novel about a couple with a young baby on 
a trip to Calcutta.  Not as good as his later stuff but still a good read.

Carrion Comfort came out in a limited trade edition a couple years back.  I
haven't seen it in paperback yet.  It is also a GREAT read.  It will keep you
turning the pages.

							mjp

                      <<< Note 893.10 by BIGRED::PARKER >>>
                              -< Carrion Comfort >-

>Carrion Comfort came out in a limited trade edition a couple years back.  I
>haven't seen it in paperback yet.  It is also a GREAT read.  It will keep you
>turning the pages.

I've got CC in large format paperback .. if you
want I can enter its IBSN number

    In the latest issue of Asimov's Norman Spinrad reviews "The Fall 
    of Hyperion".  He shared my opinion that splitting the work into 
    two books was a savage bit of publishing sleaze.  He thought that 
    the second book could have easily been tightened up by a hundred 
    pages, enough so that it and "Hyperion" could have been published 
    together in one book.   He blames the lack of good editors in SF 
    these days.  No one has the time to work with 
    an author any more.  The best editors, like David Hartwell, are 
    so swamped by the details of publishing that they can't put in 
    the time.  The rest are under so much pressure from the bean 
    counters to deliver product that they just shovel it out the door.
    Spinrad thinks that science fiction was created by editors 
    (Gernsback, Campbell, Boucher, Gold) as much as it was created by 
    authors, which is unique in literature.
    
    /jlr

    I would hate for Hyperion to have been shortened 100 pages, in fact,
    I think he could have used a few more to expand Rachel's visit and
    explain exactly what happened to Rachel and her father at the end.
    I don't care what the Paradox Board says.  As far as that goes,
    he could have explained a little more about the Paradox Board...
    
    Helen

    Oh, wow!  Just read the note on 1990 Hugo Awards!
    
    Helen

    I stumbled across Carrion Comfort in, of all places, the grocery
    store - in paperback.  I made inadvertant loud squealing noises,
    alarming people who were down the aisle buying baby food, and decided
    I probably better purchase it.
    
    It is a very good book, although not sf, and I'm not turning the
    pages as fast as I did with Hyperion.  I hope he's does some more
    sf soon.
    
    Helen

      <<< Note 893.15 by CHFS32::HMONTGO "I feel a thought approaching" >>>

    re "Carrion Comfort"


(MHO follows)  I liked CC .. untill about 75% of the way through..
and then the ease with which the good guys overcame the bad guys
(and with one bound he was free!) just became too much
for me to believe in

Are the characters in the Hyperion books any more 3-dimensional than those
in _Carrion Comfort_?  Although a lot of the background detail was supplied
about the characters in CC, somehow they still didn't quite come across to
me (although that seems to be pretty common in the horror/suspense genre).

								paul

    Nope.  At least, in my humble opinion they are very much the same.
    Matter of fact, I'm assuming that in CC, Saul Laski the Jewish
    psychiatrist is going todie in order to be reincarnated as Sol
    Weintraub the Jewish professor in Hyperion.
    
    Helen

    FALL of HYPERION finally came out in paperback, and I'm just finishing
    it now. I can't help it, I'm cheap - I just don't shell out for
    hardcovers, so only now am I finally finishing this story which I began
    reading seven months ago.
    
    Dan Simmons, according to the blurb and photo, is a former teacher and
    now head of programs for gifted students in Colorado. He certainly
    knows his Keats, so I'd make him a literature teacher at heart. He's
    got a good turn of phrase, and he knows how to plot things and handle
    multiple characters and storylines simultaneously. He has the ability
    to see visions! What I mean to say is, the story has genuine, vivid,
    dramatic imagery - the Shrike, the Sea of Grass, The Treeships, the
    World-River: these are all fascinating and dramatic images, with the
    storylines connecting them together.
    
    JRR Tolkein had this faculty - to see visions, and make them into a
    story. One set of the trilogy has Tolkein's own paintings illustrating
    the covers: "Bilbo among the Raft-Elves", and so on. I wonder if
    Simmons paints?
    
    There is something enchanting and horrifying about this story, and the
    Hugo was well deserved. But now, it's time for some kvetching:
    
    There's a fine line between literary allusion and outright plagarism,
    and Simmons is all over both sides of this line. If he's not stealing
    the imagery of Keats, he's ripping off Gibson's cyberspace (remember
    the Cyberpuke, BB Srunbringer, or something like that? Where've we seen
    him before?) Did Pournelle do Kassad? Did Niven do the Treeships? In
    fact, I can't pick up an old SF book without wondering if I'm going
    to read about a jewish girl aging backwards. I'm certain someone must
    have written it somewhere. This guy is a thief, out and out. An
    unabashed, outrageous and flagrant idea-thief if there ever was one,
    and I for one would find it inexcusable, intolerable and reprehensible
    if I (er, hum) didn't actually ENJOY the damn story so much...
    
    It's hard to stand on principle when you're really just looking for
    something entertaining to read.
    
    Max
    

    I had the same feeling about Simmons, that he was borrowing awfully
    heavily from other writers. I suppose that it is simply a fact of life,
    that authors as important as Gibson and Niven will be imitated. In
    Simmons' defense, I'd say that his Gibsonesque prose is not a direct
    rip, but variation on the theme. The Hyperion treeships are really
    nothing like Niven's in any detail of form or origin.
    
    In my own would-be writings, I'm *much* more derivative than Simmons. I
    showed a story to a friend, describing is as inspired by Niven. He read
    my story and said he'd have looked for my story in his Niven collection
    if the prose had been better :). That's what comes from admiring
    someone so much.
    
    - Hoyt

Just finished Simmons'

                           `CARRION COMFORT'

Good read.... 884 pages, and I really ripped through it.
	[always a pleasure to find a nice big book...
	 instead of an author sssttrreeeeeettcchhiiiiing
	 one into three separate `connected' novels and 
	 charging $5.95 for each of them]

The premise is mind vampirism.... the ABILITY to `Use' another person.

Lots of excitement.

The reviews were really good, and several compared it to Stephen King's
`THE STAND'. I'd agree. I really liked THE STAND, and thought most of
King's other books sucked.

Mike JN

I don't frequent this conference, but I just finished Hyperion, and had 
mixed feelings (most of which have already been expressed).  

I enjoyed the book very much, Dan's a good writer and a good story-teller
(reminds me a bit of OS Card, can't pick out why, maybe because of this 
chaucer Canturbury Tales thing).

I was suprised that is got a Hugo, though, as a *lot* of it was recycled.
The tree-ships, forest of rocket boosters, and the common use teleporting 
booths as one would use a telephone I recocgized from Niven's Known Space.

And didn't Asimov do a number (or two :) ) with a robot and a detective?

A dash of cyberpunk dosn't surprise me at all, but just as people stated 
earlier, I began to wonder about the things I didn't recognize (someone
use Rachel aging backwards as an example).  Did anyone else pick out 
things that were "stolen" in Hyperion?

			-- Mike

    
    
    I just finished Hyperion, going to grab "Fall" tomorrow.  From the
    comments here, I take it this will wrap things up and I won't have to
    wait for a third.  Good.  It was interesting that the read just before
    this was Brin's Earth and in Simmons' story, the Earth was destroyed by
    a singularity falling into the center of the Earth.  Another borrowed
    idea...  Great book so far though.
    

    >...the Earth was destroyed by a singularity falling into the center of
    >the Earth. 
    
    	Larry Niven used this over twenty years ago. 
    
    					andrew

    But in Niven's story, it was the Moon, not the Earth...
    
    		-John Bishop

    Re .25
    
    There's also Niven's "The Hole Man," in which Mars is doomed by a
    black pinhole.
    
    ESW

    re .26
    
    And let's not forget the asteroid (?) wiped out by a quantum black hole
    in Niven's "The Borderland of Sol".
    
    Clive

     re:                   <<< Note 893.25 by TLE::MINAR::BISHOP >>>
     >                   -< Time-travel + alien sculpting tool >-
     >
     >   But in Niven's story, it was the Moon, not the Earth...
     >
     >               -John Bishop
     
    
    I have read two Niven storys about a singularity destroying a heavenly
    body.  The oldest was called 'The Hole Man'.  In this story some
    astronauts discover ON MARS a black hole suspended electromagnetically
    for a gravity wave communications device.
    
    The other was a Beowulf Schaefer short about some guy who had found a
    micro black hole and was using it to rob hyperdrive ships.  I think his
    hideout gets destroyed (by whom else :-).
    
    Tony

    re .28
    
    The Beowulf Schaeffer story was called "The Borderland of Sol". 
    
    Clive

In Hogan's Thrice Upon a Time, micro black holes are also a problem.

Wook

	I bought Hyperion in P/B a few months back half price from a store going
out of business. I started reading it on a long-distance flight (24 hrs), and
just finished it about an hour ago.

	Absolutely Brilliant. The man can write. Characterisation is astounding,
the sustaining of a mood is perfect. The first book incorporates aspects of
a war story, a detective novel, a love story, science fiction. And it touches
on many religious aspects as well. The Hugo was well deserved, IMO.

	Having said that, I agree with the "idea theft" arguments put forward
by previous notes. I probably wouldn't have picked up on it myself, except
for the cyberspace references of course - "The Gibsonian Matrix" Simmons
calls it - that HAS to be a salute. But thinking about it, most of the
futuristic ideas HAVE been covered in other books. The ideas aren't all that
original.

	However, I think the book still stands above most of what's out
there, on it's writing quality, and on its characterisation. Also, the
fact that the ideas were "borrowed" made the book no less readable or
enjoyable. Plus, I think Simmons combines them and uses them in conjunction
the ideas which ARE originaal to create something which is, on the whole, new.
The whole is greater than the some of its parts? In this case, I think so.
Does the result justify the theft? No, but the result can still be appreciated
for what originality it has.

	Of course, I've only just finished the first book, and haven't read any
of the second. Luckily The Fall of Hypeion JUST came out in the UK in p/b, so
I've got a copy waiting for me at home ...

	Peter.

PS. I read a rumor in sf-lovers about a forthcoming book called "Endymion" which
is supposedly the next in the series. This was never confirmed or denied in
that newsgroup. Anyone heard nything about it?

    
    a 3rd one?!?!?  that would be neat... ive been seeing ads for a new
    simmons book all over the "T" in boston as well...  i think it's some
    sort of horror though as steven king endorses the ad, etc.
    
    ps, 24 hour flight?!?  going to the moon perhaps??
    
    

	Re: .-1

	I wouldn't get your hopes up; it's a rumor of the most unsupported
variety. I'm very reluctant even to mention it at all, since I don't want
to mislead ...

	Incidentally, the flight was from Australia to the UK. (I'm still
in the UK, but going back to God's own country very soon :-).

	Peter,

	Australian on sabbatical.

    
    mmmmm, I think I'm ready for a re-read...
    
    Helen

    
    Re - Dan Simmon's
    
    	old note, but dir/title didn't show any others, so . . .
    
    	short story collection : _Prayers_To_Broken_Stones_
    
    	very good - not all SF - some horror thrown in.  check out the
    names of the streets in "Something Passed By"
    
    	newest novel : _Children_of_the_Night_
    
    	new twist on vampire legend - fast read, though not his best.
    
    Incidentally, he was "discovered" by Harlan Ellison at a fiction
    writer's workshop.  Read Ellison's introduction to _Prayers_ . . .
    
    I _LOVED_ Carrion Comfort.  I haven't picked up Hyperion, but from the
    replys to this note, it looks like I'm just going to have to . . .
    
    				Regards. Jimbo

    I read "Hyperion" last week.  A truly excellent work of
    science fiction -- guess I'll just have to pick up the second
    book soon. (they're kinda large)
    
    Anil

    I read Hyperion, and was royally pissed when I got to the end of the
    book - because it wasn't the end of the story. It just kind of stopped.
    
    I'm glad I read it about the time the sequel was coming out, so I
    could 'finish' it. Taken together, it's a truly excellent story.
    
    Dave

    Actually I was quite disappointed with "The Fall of Hyperion".
    Couldn't wait to see how it all turned out, but Simmons wasn't
    sure either.  There were no interesting new developments..
    it was a dreary recycling of ideas from the first book, 500+ pages
    of it.  "sequelitis" appears to have struck early!
    
    Simmons does seem to be one of the best sf writers of today
    (along with Orson Scott Card and Joe Haldeman) so hopefully we'll
    see better work from him soon.

    I just finished 'Children of the Night' and thought it was a
    very fast paced novel with a minimal amount of horror and a
    lot of suspense.   The other novel that I read recently that
    had the same style and appeal was 'The Firm'.
    
    The horror part of the book was in the plot contrivance, but there
    are not a lot of individual segments that would make your skin
    crawl.  For me, that was fine because I'm not particularly a reader
    of horror novels (never read a King book from start to finish).
    
    I liked that Simmons obviously put a lot of time and effort into
    researching the background for this book.  To avoid creating a
    spoiler I'll just say that he visited the areas where the story
    takes place and consulted experts to make the plot sound 'right'.
    
    Like a lot of bestsellers, the writing is fluid, but not literary
    quality. Occasionally you might involuntarily shudder at a bad
    metaphor or forced phrase/conversation.  Because the story is more
    thriller than horror (chase scenes, narrow escapes, etc.), I think
    the packaging may be wrong for it.  It may get into Book Review's 
    top 20, but I don't think its the book that will put Simmons in
    the million seller category.
    _Marty
    

	Well, after 18 months since my last post, here definite news on
_Endymion_, the very-long-rumoured sequel to _The Fall of Hyperion_.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: write@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Glen Cox)
Subject: Re: New Simmons book?
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 23:43:20 GMT-0:08
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

>>: >No, it turns out the book is _Endymion_. Sounds a bit like Hyperion...
>>: >can anyone confirm that it will be a Hyperion book?

Well, I did indeed get to speak with Dan Simmons this weekend, and put
the question about _Endymion_ to him.  Here's the scoop:

_Endymion_ is indeed a Hyperion book, "the *last*" to quote Simmons.
However, it hasn't been finished yet.  When I told him that it had
been listed as forthcoming from Headline Books (UK publisher) in the
next six months, he said there must have been a screw-up.  At one
point (about a year ago or so), _Endymion_ would have been the next
book, but his publisher was pushing him for something immediately,
so he put it aside to finish two new novellas to be included with
a couple that he had written earlier.  These novellas will be 
collected in his new hardback, _Lovedeath_, out later this month.
He is now working on _Endymion_, but don't expect to see it for at
least a year, and probably more.

glen



Glen E. Cox               * CURRENTLY READING: 
write@lamar.ColoState.Edu *    Wilhelmina Baird, CRASHCOURSE 

    I picked up 'The Hollow Man' by Dan Simmons awhile back. Although the
    cover assures me its the same man who wrote 'Carrion Comfort' and
    'Hyperion' I wonder. Its awful, and that's being kind to it !  A typical
    sentence reads:

    	"And Jeramy sees the model for his analysis of the holographic
    neurological interpretation of the set of collapsing probability waves
    that is the universe."

    Definitely hard reading.

    Andy

I finally got around to reading this (years after everybody else, it seems),
and i had a couple of questions about the plot after finishing it (below,
beneath spoiler break).  His writing does seem to be not "literary quality",
but it does make for a good fast read (which is probably better $$$-wise).

- paul


<****SPOILERS****>



1. what was the point of the Ouster invasion of Hyperion?  since the
	overall Ouster invasion of the Hegemony turned out to be a
	hoax and their Time Tomb machine was a hoax of a different
	sort, why did they invade the Hyperion system anyway?

2. how could the Templars have been plotting with both the Ousters
	and the Church of the Shrike?  the goals of those two seemed
	to be mutually exclusive (it also seemed to me that there
	turned out to be a lot more tree-ships around even after God's
	Grove got wasted than he was telling you there were at first)

    Hi,
    
    So far in the series there has been 'Hyperion' and 'Fall Of Hyperion'.
    I heard rumor that he was working on a 3rd book. Does anyone else have
    any details of this??
    
    Sean.

>>    
>>    So far in the series there has been 'Hyperion' and 'Fall Of Hyperion'.
>>    I heard rumor that he was working on a 3rd book. Does anyone else have
>>    any details of this??
    
	I did read another web posting that the 3rd book would be out
	in the US in December, as the first part of a 2-parter. I'll
	see if I can track that down further.

	Chris

    Thank you very much. 
    
    A 2-parter that will be something to look forward to for 96.
    
    Sean.

	Found it on Bantam's home page on the Web:
	(http://www.bdd.com/forum/bddforum.cgi/scifi/)

	"Endymion" will be available in the US in December; to be
	followed by "The Fall of Endymion" to complete the saga started
	in "Hyperion". The web page has some background on the new book.
	Check it out...

	Chris

    Had a look at that web pointer you gave. Very good stuff. Thank you
    very much.
    
    Sean.

	I finished reading Endymion last weekend; it was a lot less
	complex on the surface than either of the Hyperion books; it
	answers some dangling questions and poses some interesting
	new ones. I've read more of Simmon's horror works in between,
	now I'll have to go back and reread both Hyperion books to
	see how much I missed the first time around.

	I hate waiting around for the endings of multi-book series as
	anyone, but Endymion does reach a logical stopping point and
	help fill in some blanks. But it doesn't stand alone without
	some knowledge from the first two books...

	Chris

The fourth book will be called _The Rise of Endymion_, not
_The Fall of Endymion_, as previously stated.

Simmons said he really _tried_ to fit the story all in one book :->.

    
    I just finished Endymion, and it's very frustrating to be left hanging
    at the end.  Also, the ending (involving an only somewhat motivated
    sudden change of heart on the part of a major player; any more would be
    a spoiler) was a bit difficult to accept.
    
    Be that as it may, it was a good read, but I'd almost recommend waiting
    until the sequel is available in paper and reading both volumes back to
    back.
    
    len.