Conference noted::sf

   Bought the last copy at the Booksmith in the Newington Mall, NH, this
past weekend.  I was in the middle of re-reading Niven's Smoke Ring
duo, and I haven't had time to finish them, or read it (Earth) yet.  Looks
very interesting.

   (Non-spoiler info here)

   Sounds similar to a lot of Niven's ideas around quantum black holes, and
esp. the story 'The Hole Man', where a quantum black hole ends up in the middle
of Mars.  It's not a pressing matter, but eventually it'll suck up Mars (in
the story...)

   Knowing Brin's past work, it's going to be excellent.

   I only wish it were another story in the Sundiver/Startide Rising
universe...

						-mjg

    re: -.1
    
    Don't you mean Brin's ideas about black holes or does Brin share
    similar ideas with Niven?
    
    ktlam--

   Niven's ideas.  Brin seems to be using them.

   I know they're not really Niven's original ideas, but he's the only author
I know of who has written stories in which quantum black holes play an
important part.  (The Hole Man, and The Borderland of Sol come to mind, but
I'm pretty sure they've been elsewhere.)

   I don't know where the original speculation of quantum black holes came from,
I suspect as part of a hypothesis trying to explain "the missing mass" in
the universe.  I think Bob Forward had something to do with it, but maybe I'm
just extrapolating in my mind from the way he (Larry Niven) has borrowed many
sf ideas from Forward and his science.

   Anyways, back to Brin... (who, IMO, stands to be the Niven of the 90s,
if he would start producing more...)


					-mjg

    Last I heard, small black holes were thought to be unstable, and 
    so there wouldn't be any natural ones around.  There was a narrow window 
    between when the idea was proposed and when Hawking made this 
    counter-theory in which stories could be written about them.  
    Niven may have been the only one quick enough to jump through the 
    window, although he may regret it now.   
    
    Artificial black holes still come up, though.  They figure in 
    Walter Jon Williams' latest novel, "Angel Station",  as part of a 
    star drive.
    
    /jlr

   As I recall, the instability of small black holes is due to the fact that
large ones decay.  (You have to consider the effects in time, as well as
space...)  There are pairs of particles and anti-particles which are
travelling in some random velocity, in all 4 dimensions.  Normally, the pairs
are created and destroyed very quickly - probably just contributing to the
background radiation in the universe and perhaps some occasional nasty
genetic things in DNA-type creatures if the destruction causes enough
radiation near a strand of DNA...

   However, if the pair is created near the event horizon of a black hole,
and then one of the pair goes beyond the event horizon, and the other escapes,
you see the black hole emitting particles, apparently.  As the once-large
black hole gets smaller and smaller, the effective emitting surface (the
event horizon) gets smaller, and they actually end up exploding.

   I forget the dynamics of this all.  I used to have a scientific american
collection of articles on black holes which was very interesting, but it's
gone.

   And, for reasons I don't recall, quantum black holes would not be
subject to this phenomenon.  I wish I could remember why...

					-mjg

    Re .5
    
    The way I understood it, the quantum black holes are exactly the tiny
    ones that end up exploding.  The theory of black-hole evaporation you
    outline is the invention of Steven Hawking.  If there is a reason the
    black holes stablize when they get small enough, I never heard of it. 
    Perhaps Brin fobbed one up for his story.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    No, no, no, no.. The black holes in _Earth_ are not found or located 
    quantum black holes, they are created. One of the central characters
    builds a "cavitron generator" to build a black hole. His construction
    material? Well it just sort of becomes without much explanation out
    of space-time.

    An epilog offers an interesting explanation for the inflation of the
    universe by way if a black hole being created which grows too rapidly
    to be contained in "our" universe.

    _Earth_ isn't a bad yarn, if you like the idea of rival groups battling
    it out on Earth with tuned gravity wave generators (grazers).

    Dennis

    I just started reading "Earth" last night.  It's a little "self
    conscious", but otherwise it's typically excellent Brin.  And it's
    big.  His projection of the future 50 years from now is interestingly
    different from the "standard model".  His afterword has some tactfully
    harsh words for the cyberpunk model.
    
    Actually, the quantum black hole in "Earth" does evaporate, it's a tiny
    cosmic string that's causing all the trouble.
    
    I'm only 150 pages into it, but I'd recommend it, if you can't wait
    for the paperback.
    
    len.
    
    
    

    A friend gave me a copy of "Earth" because he didn't want it anymore. 
    He found it "too perfectly politically correct."  I think I see what he
    means, though I wouldn't have put it that way.  I'm having a hard time
    getting into it.
    
    Brin presents too many diverse views for his book to be PC or not PC.
    But it's very talky and explanatory about all those views -- and it has 
    to be very talky to bother me.  The talk is interesting, so I flip the book
    open and find an interesting little "essay" almost anywhere.  But one
    gets the feeling that the characters all go about immersed in
    historical reflections, even the teenagers in the midst of street
    fights.
    
    One thing interesting to noters of this conference: Brin's future
    society is full of noters.  Lots of the book is excerpts from the Net,
    essays and chatter within the various NetSiGs (network special interest
    groups, which are a lot like these conferences).
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I haven't finished reading this yet but so far I find that it drags a
    bit and it's somewhat boring.  Not one of Brin's better works I'd say.

    re .9, .10 - same experience - I started it, put it down and haven't
    gone back; it's in a pile of "big books" to be gotten to eventually.
    Seems to be a lot of big name SF ending up in this pile lately...
    
    len.
    

  I found the first 50 pages to be slow going but after that I _really_ 
  enjoyed this book.  I guess you could say it is a bit preachy but
  it isn't near the preachiness level of your average Heinlein.  (I
  must point out that I happen to agree with the sermons presented, 
  to the extent of chipping in with an 'amen' now and again...)
  
  I've enjoyed every Brin book so far except "The Practice Effect" (in case
  you want to compare tastes...).

  JP

I *loved* this book! While it may fall into the "big book" category, it is one
of those that I find ending much too quickly (as opposed to "Queen of Angels,"
which ends somewhat mercifully without resolving a durn thing). Definitely one
for those who stand by the ecology movement (toxic polluters need not apply).
I saw this less as being PC than as being a slap to the face: "WAKE UP!" Sort
of low-level activism. I enjoyed the epilogue, too. It was interesting to hear
him discuss the parts he made up vs. the reality, and the parts where he took
artistic license. The only thing I found annoying was the characters he would
introduce and then shortly kill off. They were little asides to build the 
future context, but I like characters to contribute more to the overall plot.

I found his use of nanotechnology very interesting. Where Bear's Q of A ran the
world almost as if by magic on nanotech, Brin was much more restrained. Partly
for this reason, it seemed much more realistic, making Q of A more fantasy-
like.

There were so many great concepts in this book. The World Data Net was very
interesting, particularly in its social effects. The war on privacy was another
good one, very topical; sort of like NOTES meets the Good Ole Boy Network.

A technical question. Is there any scientific basis for the gravity resonators?
What was the energy source for a thumper? Why a big (but not supermassive)
crystal? Is that all just mumbo-jumbo, or was there really something to it? I
foung these interesting, but maybe a little too mysterious, like element X
in the old E.E. Doc Smith rags.

	I hadn't read any Brin before I picked this one up, and I'm very
impressed. I can see why Brin has become such a popular "hard" sf writer.
His ideas are good and fairly clearly explained, without him treating his
audience as complete physics ignoramuses (ignorami?).

	But it IS a bit wordy; Brin gets a bit involved in his own thoughts
and theories. So while the book at any place is fascinating to read, I found
it a bit heavy going, due to the pace being slowed down by his almost studious
examination of the society he created.

	Having said that, I really enjoyed reading the snippets of "articles"
Brin used to separate the chapters. These were fascinating to read, although a
little sobering at times. These ranged from simple listings of statistics to
lengthy articles written by members of NETSiGs.

	His characterisation was excellent - the man is more than a physicist
who writes, he IS an excellent writer. And although the pace was a little slow
to begin with, he picked it up long before the end. The book became
unputdownable by about the last 150 pages.

	I, too, found the afterword (and the short story that followed) very
interesting. Definitely worth the read, but not until AFTER you read the story
proper!

	I intend to read Sundiver and its companion novels at a later date, but
probably not for a while; I need something light and frothy before I delve into
something that heavy again! (I'm reading Four Past Midnight by King, which
certainly fits THAT bill!)

	Peter.

    >        I intend to read Sundiver and its companion novels at a later
    >date, but probably not for a while; I need something light and frothy 
    >before I delve into something that heavy again! (I'm reading Four Past 
    
    	Or, if you would like some light & frothy Brin, I reccomend "The
    Practice Effect", a bigtime fun read, in my opinion....
    	
    					chuck
    

I also enjoyed the "Practice Effect". One of the most unusual premises I've
ever seen. Silly, but quite enjoyable. liesl

    
    Just finished this book, this is the only Brin book I've ever read, but
    this thing should be required reading in high school :').  A
    replacement for 1984 I guess.  The picture he paints is scary!
    
    On to Hyperion...
    
    

    Rob,
    
    If I might make a suggestion .....
    
    I have not read Earth yet, but I heartily recommend some other works by
    Brin, namely 'Startide Rising' and 'The Uplift War'.  These are
    excellent books.  Among the best I have ever read.  
    
    Tony

Rob --

I agree with Tony about the quality of "Startide Rising" and "The Uplift War",
but I would recommend that you sandwich "Sundiver" in-between the two --
it occurs prior in time to the other two books, but provides useful background
for "The Uplift War".

	-Todd

    Todd,
    
    I read "Sundiver".  I thought it was ok, but, one of my key measures of
    a books quality is my desire to reread it.  I have reread both
    "Startide Rising" and "The Uplift War", but had no such desire with
    "Sundiver".  
    
    Don't get me wrong, it wasn't bad and I don't regret reading it, its
    just that I think it is a weak cousin of the other two and not the
    first thing someone who is looking for a recommendation of a good read
    should get, IMHO.
    
    Tony

No argument, Tony...  "Startide Rising" and "The Uplift War" are both better
reads (IMHO) than "Sundiver".  I just thought that some of the additional 
background on galactic culture, "uplifting", and why the Earth-derived 
sentients were treated "that way" was useful when reading "The Uplift War".

Besides, that was the order I read them in... ;) :)  :) :)

	-Todd

    Yea, Brin is good, imaginative, the way I like SF.
    
    Even in the lesser read, "Sundiver", there was a very interesting
    cooling system for the namesake craft.  Truely a very interesting idea!
    
    The technology imagined in the other two works is impressive.
    
    Tony

    
    thanks for the info.  i grabbed startide rising the other day when i
    picked up the second hyperion book.  so, ill probably get to start it
    next week or so.
    
    cheers!
    
    

    
    
    startide rising down...  now just have to get uplift war.  where
    exactly is sundiver SUPPOSED to fit in here?  is it just another book
    in this same universe/time or is it about the same people?  or does it
    come before everything etc?  
    
    

    re:.24
    
    SUNDIVER is set in the same universe, but quite a while (forget
    exactly how long -- it's been a while since I read them) before
    STARTIDE or UPLIFT. As I recall, in SUNDIVER, the humans were
    just beginning to Uplift cetaceans.
    
    --- jerry

    re: .24
    
    As Jerry said _Sundiver_ takes place long before _Startide_Rising_.
    In _Startide_Rising_, there is a minor character who is a descendant of
    the main character in _Sundiver_, a granddaughter or somthing.

    
    i think maybe ill just skip sundiver :')
    
    

    re:.27
    
    Why?  It's not quite up to the level of STARTIDE, but it's a fine
    read on its own.
    
    --- jerry

    
    
    well, because i thought startide was just so-so and i really don't
    think the uplift process would interest me much.  for some reason, the
    solphin/chimp interactions i just found to be annoying and if the whole
    book is like that, i doubt i would appreciate it.  then again, knowing
    me, i will probably pick it up anyway :').  after illuminati, i can
    read ANYTHING!!  :')
    
    

    re:.29
    
    SUNDIVER is set at the point where mankind is starting to Uplift
    cetaceans, but the book isn't *about* that. It's actually a thriller.
    
    --- jerry

    
    Ah...  now to go use my B&N gift certificate I got for Xmas.  Thanks
    for that little tidbit.  I really wasn't interested in a whole book
    about the uplift process :').