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Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

871.0. "Andre Norton's Witch World " by WMOIS::L_LEE () Tue May 01 1990 16:36

    Hello,
    
    I'm new to this (or any other) notes file. I've been reading this
    one with great interest as I find myself reading a lot of fantasy/
    science fiction recently.
    My latest venture is with Andre Norton's Witchworld series. I have
    a question for anyone who'd care to answer. In what order should I
    be reading these? I thought I had it figured out, but I was in a
    bookstore the other day and looked in the cover of one of the more
    recent books and found that it had the series ordered differently
    than what I'd concluded should be the "right read" order. I am
    currently reading "Three Against the Witch World". By the way
    would these be considered scifi or fantasy?
    Another question: Has anyone out there ever heard of Marta Randall?
    I have a book by her titled "Sword in Winter" which I absolutely
    loved. I cannot find another book by her anywhere and believe me
    I have searched.
    Keep on writting folks, this file is one that I eagerly await new 
    notes to read and learn from. Thanks to all.
    
    Lois Lee
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
871.1Order out of ChaosCXCAD::WILLIAMSSet the mind freeThu May 03 1990 16:1936
    RE: .0
    
    	Ignore the printing order. This is the order they should be
    	in:
    
    	1.  Horn Crown
    	2.  Witch World
    	3.  Web of the Witch World
    	4.  Three Against the Witch World
    	5.  Sorceress of the Witch World
    	6.  Warlock of the Witch World
    	7.  Year of the Unicorn
    	8.  Jargoon Pard
    	9.  Trey of Swords
    	10. Spell of the Witch World
    	11. Lore of the Witch World
    	12. Book of Andre Norton
    	13. Zarthor's Bane
    	14. 'Ware Hawk
    	15. Crystal Gryphon
    	16. Gryphon in Glory
    	17. Gryphon's Eyrie
    	18. Gate of the Cat
    
    	1-9 are pretty straightforward and in sequence.
    	10-12 are short stories
    	13-14 are offshoots from the short stories or standalones
    	15-17 stand by themselves, but have characters from various
    		others included
    	18 brings most of the series together as an ending.
    
    
    	Hope this helps. And I consider the series both as sci-fi and
    	fantasy. 
    
    	...John
871.2My two centsAV8OR::RENI will not burp in classThu May 10 1990 21:1630
    RE .1 : I'm that the order you listed is the how the stories are ordered
    chronologically, not the order in which they were written. I'm not sure
    they need to be read in that order, since they don't always involve the
    same characters or storylines (i.e Horn Crown takes place hundreds of
    years (at least) before the others).

    I would suggest reading Witch World, Web of the Witch World, Three Against
    the Witch World, Sorceress of the Witch World, and Warlock of the Witch
    World in that order, since those cover related characters and events. I
    believe that they were also the first Witch World books published, and
    they give a much better introduction to the Witch World than any of the
    other books.

    Also, though I haven't read them yet (still haven't been able to get a
    copy of the Crystal Gryphon), The Crystal Gryphon, Gryphon in Glory, and
    Gryphon's Eyrie, should also be read in order. The rest of the books I
    read in a very haphazard order, so I had trouble relating what was where
    and when.

    One very helpful source is the Witch World supplement for the GURPS role
    playing game (from Steve Jackson Games). The authors' names escape me,
    one of them has a Witch World short story published in one of the more
    recent collections. It gives histories and geographies of the different
    lands in the Witch World. It also has a chapter listing all published
    Witch World material, with descriptions. It suggests an order in which
    to read the books (and which ones are related), and it also has a
    comprehensive timeline which also gives which novel each event took place
    in. I have a copy of it if you'd like to browse through it for a few days
    (preferably if you live in the Massachusetts area...I'd rather not 
    mail it).
871.3Thanks!WMOIS::L_LEETue May 15 1990 19:4225
    Thanks for the information. 
    
    I started reading this series because a friend of mine found a bunch
    of old paperbacks and gave them to me. I think the books I have are
    probably the original paperback releases so of course there is no 
    listing of subsequent books like Horn Crown and others because they
    they hadn't been written yet! Or at least not released. 
    
    The entire listings of the series that .1 and .2 have provided me
    with has been very helpful. I had read Witch World, Web of the
    Witch World, and Three Against the Witch World when I got the
    first reply so I immediately went out and purchased Horn Crown to
    read. I'm glad I happened to do it in that order as I was then
    able to put some things into perspective so to speak.  I'm now
    reading Warlock of the Witch World. I'd read a few pages of
    Sorceress of the Witch World and then there was mention of Kemoc's
    disappearance. Since I hadn't read anything previously about that I
    assumed that perhaps the Warlock book told that story so I chose
    to read that next instead of Sorceress. I am having such a good time
    with this series!
    
    Does anyone have other Andre Norton favorites they'd suggest reading?
    
    ..........................LL
    
871.4Alice Norton favoritesMYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiWed May 16 1990 16:1329
  I think the following books have been around for well over 20 years, but 
  they are some of my favorites.  Perhaps the readership can help me out if
  I got some of the titles wrong.

  Storm Over Warlock

  The Time Traders 
  Galactic Derelict
  (I think there were a few more in this series, too)

  Secret of the Lost Race 
  (This was originally published under another title but I've forgotten it)

  Star Guard 
  (In a universe where Terrans' contribution to galactic society is
  in the form of mercenaries -- Mechs and Archs)

  Star Rangers
  (I think this was the title -- a Galactic Patrol ship crashlands on
  a backwater planet in the twilight of the empire)

  The Stars are Ours (& sequels)
  (Standard "misfits escape earth in frozen-sleep colony ship" plot but
  a pretty good read)

  JP


871.5ARCANA::CONNELLYDesperately seeking snoozin'Thu May 17 1990 02:1918
re: .4
(hi, John!;-))

>  The Time Traders 
>  Galactic Derelict
>  (I think there were a few more in this series, too)
	i think one was called _Key Out of Time_ and there was at least
	one other, but i forget what they were like now

>  Star Rangers
>  (I think this was the title -- a Galactic Patrol ship crashlands on
>  a backwater planet in the twilight of the empire)
	it was published under that title and also as _The Last Planet_,
	if memory serves me right

one of my favorites was _Star Gate_ (parallel world story with nice blend
of science fiction elements and mysticism)
								paul
871.6Just a "few" more...CXCAD::WILLIAMSSet the mind freeFri May 18 1990 13:3898
    
    I have grouped together series and at the end listed other titles.
    
    * = dealing with magic
    # = history fiction
    + = not sf
    
    Storm Over Warlock
    Ordeal in Otherwhere
    Forerunner Foray
    
    The Zero Stone
    Uncharted Stars
    
    The Stars Are Ours
    Star Born
    
    The Beast Master
    Lord of Thunder
    
    Moon of Three Rings
    Exiles of the Stars
    Flight in Yiktor
    Dare to Go A-Hunting
    
    Forerunner
    Forerunner:The Second Venture
    
    Sargasso of Space
    Star Hunter & Voodoo Planet
    Postmarked the Stars
    
    Victory on Janus
    Judgement on Janus
    
    StarKa'ats
    StarKa'at World
    StarKa'ats and the Plant People
    
    Shadowhawk #
    Catseye
    Ice Crown
    Wheel of Stars *
    Ralestone Luck +
    Imperial Lady #
    Moon Called *
    Moon Mirror * (short stories)
    Red Hart Magic *
    Lavender-Green Magic *
    Dragon Magic * (short stories)
    Perilous Dreams * (short stories)
    High Sorcery * (short stories)
    Here Abide Monsters *
    Wraiths of Time * #
    House of Shadows * #
    Night of Masks
    The Defiant Agents
    Sea Seige
    Iron Cage
    Yurth Burden
    Operation Time Search
    Starman's Son (Daybreak 2250 A.D.)
    Secret of the Lost Race
    Eye of the Monster
    Voorloper
    Knave of Dreams
    Quest Crosstime
    Key Out of Time
    The X Factor
    Star Gate
    Huon of the Horn (King Arthur story)
    Merlin's Mirror *
    Android at Arms
    Star Rangers
    Quag Keep (Dungeon and Dragon story)
    No Night Without Stars
    Star Guard
    Dark Piper
    Dread Companion
    Breed to Come
    Fur Magic *
    Steel Magic *
    Octagon Magic *
    Seven Spells to Sunday *
    Ten Mile Treasure +
    Snow Shadow +
    Iron Butterflys +
    The Opal-Eyed Fan +
    
    There are a few others, but I don't have them in my collection.
    But I'm always trying to make it complete.  Also look for books
    written by Andrew North...early alias of Andre Norton.
    
    Enjoy.....I have.
    
    ...John
    
    
871.7QUASER::JOHNSTONWHOA! Death by STEREO!Wed May 30 1990 21:046
   Lois Lee !?!?!?

   Are you one of Superman's girlfriends? (he asked in a conspiratorial
   whisper).

   Mike JN
871.8Superman's main squeezeWMOIS::L_LEEThu Jun 14 1990 17:0913
    .7 - No, I am not ONE of Superman's girlfriend's, I am Superman's
         ONLY girlfriend!  (she said quietly, but firmly).
    
    By the way, I've sort of retreated from the Witch World for awhile
    and now I'm wandering around Amber! Good stuff!
    
    No one has adressed my second question about Marta Randall. Does 
    this mean that no one has read anything by her, that she doesn't
    really exist, have I been reading so much fantasy that now I'm 
    starting to write my own stories and assigning unknown author's 
    names to them???  Help!
    
    ..........................LL
871.9RUBY::BOYAJIANA Legendary AdventurerFri Jun 15 1990 10:497
    re:.8
    
    You did not make up Marta Randall. She exists, and I've heard of
    her (obviously). I'm sure there are other books by her, but I'd
    have to go digging for titles.
    
    --- jerry
871.10RUBY::BOYAJIANA Legendary AdventurerSat Jun 16 1990 01:368
    I've found at least two other Marta Randall titles in my collection.
    
    JOURNEY (1978)
    DANGEROUS GAMES (1980)
    
    Both in paperback from Pocket Books.
    
    --- jerry
871.11< STORMS OF VICTORY >KAOOA::HOLLISTERHOLLISTERTue Feb 25 1992 17:4923
    
    
    Hello People,
    
    	Just recently Andre Norton started a series of Short Stories about
    the Witch World.  These stories are set in the Witch World, but are
    written by many of today's best writers.  The series are:
    
              --->   Tales of the Witch World 1
              --->   Tales of the Witch World 2
              --->   Tales of the Witch World 3
    
    	She has also created another book of the Witch world called "STORMS
    OF VICTORY".  This is a third person accound of events.  It also looks
    like she is going to create a few more books in this series.
    
    	By the way if you like short stories you might try Marion Zimmers
    Bradley "SWORD AND SORCERESS" series.
    
    Good Reading,
    
    Terry
    
871.12ReviewsVERGA::KLAESQuo vadimus?Tue Jan 11 1994 21:09216
Article: 477
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Unnumbered Reviews #7: Andre Norton -- Part I
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: 11 Jan 94 14:22:12 GMT
 
	Unnumbered Reviews #7:  Andre Norton -- Part I
 
Andre Norton is one of the greats of science fiction and fantasy -- one of
the writers who moulded and influenced an entire generation of readers.
Her work suffers, however, from a severe case of Heinlein's Syndrome:  If
you didn't encounter it in your teens, you may not care much for it if you
encounter it now.  In Norton's case, this is primarily because most of her
early books were juveniles.
 
'Juveniles' is a slippery term in this context, since for much of the
genre's history, *most* of the stories and novels were read by a relatively
young readership.  Until the last couple of decades, however, very few 
authors were explicitly writing science fiction for a young readership.  
The conspicuous exceptions were Robert Heinlein and Andre Norton, and both
exhibited the rare gift of writing for younger readers without writing down.  
 
Yet Heinlein's novels tended to stay with those readers after Norton's
were (fondly) left behind.  Because Andre Norton's novels were adventure
stories, tales of wonder and imagination, but not books that challenged
their readers intellectually or philosophically.  They still made wonderful
reading for a thirteen-year-old or a fifteen-year-old, though.
 
The reason I've been referring to Norton's books in the past tense is that
I'll be dwelling for the most part on her earlier novels, not her more
recent ones.  (For those, read "Part II", which I'm not planning to write.)
That certainly leaves enough books to cover!  Norton has written over a
hundred books (and, with a librarian's neatness, has taken care to scatter
the titles all through the alphabet).  
 
There is a 'standard' milieu which houses a large fraction of Norton's
science fiction, but it doesn't attempt to be a consistent future history.
It's a multi-species galaxy, though humans predominate -- or at least are
most numerous.  (In *none* of her books does Norton slip into a humans-good-
aliens-bad simplicity.)  A precarious rule of law is provided by the Patrol,
but space-farers who want to survive go armed.  The Patrol itself is over-
extended, and when it shows up, is as likely to deliver its own justice as
to wait for the courts.  (The other civilization-spanning organization is 
the Thieves Guild.)  Starfaring worlds trade not only with each other, but 
also with more primitive worlds -- no Prime Directive here!  Large 
corporations tend to control the more profitable trade routes, while
independent traders work the exotic and peripheral ones.  
 
Technology is advanced, but ill-defined aside from the ubiquitous space
ships, blasters, and advanced medical technology.  Telepathic abilities
are unusual, but not unknown.  We don't see much large-scale government,
but it presumably exists, as the backgrounds of many of the novels include
interstellar wars, 'burnt off' planets, and displaced populations.  And
there's a back-history:  In the millions of years before humanity came on
the scene, many other races expanded and disappeared -- often leaving
behind high-tech, high-psi, or even 'magical' artifacts of incalculable
value.  Obviously this is a varied enough background for any number of
tales.  Among the best of these:
 
"The Last Planet" (aka "Star Rangers", **** on an uncalibrated four-point
scale.  Warning: For this review, I'm not rating the books on how they
would read if I reread them now, but on how I felt about them when I read
them at age twelve or thirteen or fourteen.  TLS, for instance, was one of
the few books I read more than twenty times.)  In "The Last Planet",
Norton's standard milieu is only glimpsed in the background.  An 
interstellar empire is collapsing, and the Patrol has become an
embarrassment to the local authorities -- who order the few remaining
ships on a mission from which they're not expected to return.  The book
opens with the last of these ships making its last crash landing on a
primitive world which turns out to have remains of a high technology.
Before the survivors can make a place for themselves on this world, they
-- and other galactic refugees -- must first work through the conflicts
they've brought with them:  humans vs non-humans, telepaths vs non-
telepaths, and the perennial problem of the power-hungry.
 
In "Dark Piper" (****-) too, the galactic milieu is only in the background.
The Four Sectors War has just ended.  The planet Beltane, settled as a
scientific experimental station, rather than as a regular colony, was
relatively unaffect by the war, and when Griss Lugard, one of the few
veterans to return, warns that the galaxy is no longer as safe as it was,
few wish to hear.  Sure enough, the galaxy doesn't leave Beltane alone.
When a number of the Beltane's youngsters are trapped with Lugard by a
cave in, the accident winds up saving their lives:  They emerge to find
most of the colony dead, and their world in the hands of refugee veterans
from other worlds -- or in the paws of the products of hitherto-secret
biological research. 
 
"Dread Companion" (***+), like many of Norton's novels, combines science
fiction and fantasy.  Kilda is a creche-raised youngster who takes a
governess/teaching position as a means of getting offworld.  She is made
responsible for Oomark, a subdued but ordinary boy, and Bartare, a girl
who is somewhat uncanny, and turns out to have a link to an unseen entity
who is teaching her magic.  Bartare is eventually drawn -- and Kilda and
Oomark with her -- to another reality.  Essentially, this reality is the
land of Faerie -- a land of magics and monsters and shape-changed or
enspelled humans -- and Kilda must cobble together tag ends of magic and
legend in order to win them free.  For practical purposes, the Faerie
portion of "Dread Companion" would have been identical whether the
characters had arrived there by sounding strange stones on a distant
planet or by walking into an Elf mound on twentieth-century Earth.
 
"Star Guard" (****-) is one of the books placed in a 'relatively' near
future, rather than in a distant future in which humanity has spread to
the stars and Earth is a barely-remembered part of its prehistory.  In
this future, humanity's expansion was swiftly checked by other galactic
races, who channeled humanity's aggression by making it Earth's chief
export:  Planetary rulers could hire human mercenaries (either 'Archs',
for low-tech worlds, or 'Mechs' for medium-tech worlds) to fight their
limited and regulated battles.  After three centuries of this, neither
humans nor aliens were completely satisfied:  Some humans thought the
system was just designed to keep Earth in its place, and some aliens
thought that Earth wasn't being kept in its place -- and both started to
cheat.  When a small Arch 'Horde' finds itself facing high-tech weaponry,
the chicanery starts coming into the open.  I'd characterize "Star Guard"
(1955) as a precursor to the military sf/f now being written by authors
like Drake, Turtledove, and Stirling, albeit one that draws more on
Xenophon than on Viet Nam for its inspiration.
 
"Witch World" (***+) introduces us to Norton's best-known and longest-
running fantasy series.  A man on the run from gangsters escapes through a
mystical portal/plot-device which sends those who use it on a one-way trip
to the world for which they are best suited.  In short order he finds
himself in the middle of a fight, and finds that he has rescued one of the
witches of Estcarp.  In time, he comes to play a pivotal role in Estcarp's
fight for survival against its foes to the south.  Good sword-and-sorcery,
and more imaginative than most of the successors it inspired.
 
(Brief background:  The Witch World is the fantasy equivalent of a post-
holocaust milieu.  Long ago, sorcerers of incredible power warred and came
close to destroying their world.  The last of these sorcerers were
destroyed or imprisoned or chose to leave their world -- though they left
behind artifacts which still have great power for good or evil.  Most of
the world's humans now live at a generic-medieval level of technology
(with some odd higher-tech quirks), have little or no magic, and distrust
it in others.  Estcarp is a very old land -- trapped between enemies to
the north and the south -- which retains some magic.  Girls who are born
with the power are taken young and trained as witches.)
 
"Witch World" spawned a large number of sequels, most of them (for a
while) quite good.  "Web of the Witch World" was a direct continuation.
Then came the next generation, triplets, each of whom provided the
viewpoint for a different book:  "Three Against the Witch World", "Warlock
of the Witch World", and "Sorceress of the Witch World".
 
"Year of the Unicorn" (***+) is not set in Estcarp (or the lands 
adjoining it), but in High Halleck, a land across the sea, poorer in magic
use, but richer in ancient magic artifacts.   Most of the High Halleck
novels were written later than the Estcarp novels (they're also not as
good, but that's just my opinion :), and interact with the latter only
slightly, the main connection being that High Halleck is invaded by Estcarp's
northern enemy.  Most of the High Halleck novels are set against the
background of that prolonged war and its aftermath.  "The Year of the Unicorn"
-- the first-written and best of the High Halleck novels -- begins at the
war's end:  High Halleck has won, partly because it recruited supernatural
allies, and now the allies have come to claim their pay -- thirteen
well-born brides.  The trouble is, one of the brides is of witch blood.
 
It seems a quirk of Norton's writing (or perhaps just of my view of it) 
that one spends more time describing the milieu than the actual story.  
To her credit, she herself does not do so.  The first few pages of a 
novel will often wax expository, but after that she sticks to her story 
telling.  (Will you enjoy that story telling if you're *not* in your teens?
If you haven't read any of her books, try a couple and find out.)
 
Other key titles include: "The Crossroads of Time", "Ordeal in Otherwhere",
"Moon of Three Rings", "The Zero Stone", "Star Gate", "The Time Traders",
"Star Man's Son" (aka "Daybreak, 2250 AD").
 
It would be unhelpful to list all the Norton books worth reading.  Many or
most fans who encounter Norton in their teens go through a phase of
reading *all* of them.  And there aren't many that *aren't* worth reading.
There are some, though, and it's probably worth a few words of warning:
"Quag Keep" (*) is the first and worst "kids find themselves living a
fantasy roleplaying game" novel.  Avoid.  The 'magic' books (with titles
like "Steel Magic", "Fur Magic", "Dragon Magic", etc.) are children's
books, not so-called "young adults" books, and are written for younger 
readers.  (That's a tactful way of saying I found them obnoxious -- except
for "Lavender-Green Magic" -- but might have enjoyed them if I'd read them
when I was nine.)  "Huon of the Horn" (*+) is a novelization of one of the
more irritating of the medieval romances.  The romance involved numerous
repetitions of the sequence a) Huon is warned against a danger; b) Huon
barges in anyhow; c) Huon has to be bailed out.  Norton's novelization is
actually an improvement on the original, but...  "Eye of the Monster" (*+)
and "Sea Siege" (*+) were my introduction to the possibility that Andre
Norton could write dull novels, though I subsequently encountered "Garan
the Eternal" (*+) and other confirmations.  And Norton's coauthored works
are, naturally, highly variable (but I give her credit that if her name is
on the cover, her work is on the inside).
 
Different people will probably give you different warn-off lists.  For
that matter, different people will probably give different best-of lists.
I've given what I think are some good starting points for a reader who is
unfamiliar with Andre Norton's works.
 
Disclaimer:  Don't think of this as a review series.  It's just unnumbered
to help me keep track.
 
%A  Norton, Andre
%O  yes, that's her legal name
%T  The Last Planet
%O  alternate title, Star Rangers
%T  Dark Piper
%T  Dread Companion
%T  Star Guard
%T  Witch World
%T  Year of the Unicorn
 
-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com
 
   "You have the reputation of being one of the nicest guys in the field.
    We both know you're a hyena on its hind legs.  How have you fooled
    everyone?"  "By keeping my mouth shut when I read garbage" -- Gene Wolfe