Conference noted::sf

    Ooo, I feel for you, but I'm not about to lend you my copy. ;-)
    
    But take heart. When you do get a copy, you're in for a real treat.
    I thought it was super fun and very well written. On the other hand,
    I like Spinrad. I have noticed many folks don't like his works.
    I don't understand that.
    
    The word play in Child of Fortune is wonderful. It is a real pleasure
    to read. As is his newest, _Little_Heros_.
    
    Tamzen

re: .1

>    I like Spinrad. I have noticed many folks don't like his works.
>    I don't understand that.
    
Has he gotten any better since _Bug Jack Barron_?  That seemed like
one of the silliest rip-offs of a Philip K. Dick plot with radical-
liberal pretensions that you could find.
							Pc.

    	re: .2
    
    Why is it a silly ripoff ? Dick's fiction is generally excellent,so
    is Spinrad's.Whilst I can see some similarities,Spinrad is very
    much his own man;a "radical-liberal" approach doesn't have to be
    an irrelevant addition to somebody else's technique,although I gather
    from recent news items that "liberal" is a dangerous word in the
    US ! Spinrad belongs to the "new wave" nurtured by Moorcock's New
    Worlds in the late 60s/early & mid 70s along with Ellison,Disch,Sladek,
    Ballard and other inventive authors.So far as I am aware,Dick enjoyed
    their stories and the most recent "Cyberpunk" fiction owes a lot
    to them.Do you want "ideas" fiction to die with the inestimable
    Mr. Dick ?
    
    Ian D.

re: .3
>    Why is it a silly ripoff ? Dick's fiction is generally excellent,so

Well, Dick usually offers characters that can behave in unexpected ways
to go along with his Byzantine political plots (consider Bertold Goltz,
the Jewish "neo-Nazi" in _The Simulacra_, for instance).

_Bug Jack Barron_ was a collection of outrageous '60s stereotypes in
my mind.  Barron is the super-cool "whitey" who has the revolutionary
black leaders and workers fawning all over him.  Also he happens to be
a macho man who reduces his ex-wife to fawning post-feminist adoration
when push comes to shove.  Basically it was a white male '60s radical's
wet-dream of love and acceptance by the "righteous" masses.

>    to them.Do you want "ideas" fiction to die with the inestimable
>    Mr. Dick ?
    
No, and maybe I'm being unfair to Spinrad based on an early work of his
(there were also some early short stories of his that failed to impress
me).  But if I look at _Bug Jack Barron_ vs. a contemporary work of
similar spirit, such as _Camp Concentration_, Disch's work has it all
over Spinrad's (at that point in their careers anyway).
								paul

    re: .4
    	I would not compare Disch and Spinrad directly.Certainly Spinrad
    uses a lot of stereotypes in "Bug Jack Barron",but I believe that's
    intentional;surely it isn't unreasonable to picture a society or
    environment that is basically superficial/media-dominated (one of
    Spinrad's more common themes,along with Ellison) if it's appropriate
    to the story ? I felt that the environment and characters were well-
    drawn,the story interesting and well-paced,and the novel made its
    point effectively.Disch's style is much more intense,focussing less
    on the environment than the interaction of characters or their
    collective behaviour.I accept that Disch is a wonderful author,by
    the way,and probably prefer his work to Spinrad's on balance.However,
    I feel that Spinrad is one of the best SF authors nonetheless.If
    you haven't read any of his other works,they tend to differ
    considerably,and I wouldn't quote any as typical,but try THE IRON
    DREAM,SONGS FROM THE STARS (I think I've got that right) and THE
    VOID CAPTAIN'S TALE.I'd recommend CHILD OF FORTUNE,but I haven't
    read it yet !!
    
    Ian D.

    I've read both Childe of Fortune and Little Heros and thoroughly
    enjoyed both.  I wouldn't class him with Disch or Dick however.
    He has a much lighter touch than either.
    
     Re .0 Ian send me your mailstop and I'll dump the two paperbacks
    in a envelope and ship'em.  Please return when done.
    
    					- John

    	Besides STAR TREK's "The Doomsday Machine", did Norman Spinrad
    write any other stories about the Berserkers - the intelligent,
    automated battlecruisers bent on wiping out all life in the Universe -
    and if so, what were the titles of his stories and/or novels, and
    what year were they written?  Thanks.
    
    	Larry
    

    
    Could you be thinking of Fred Saberhagen's Berserker novels, of
    which there are zillions?
    
    I've never heard Spinrad's name associated with anything named
    'Berserker,' only Saberhagen's.  The covers of the books make them
    look more like the Death Star than the Doomsday Machine from Star
    Trek.
    
    DFW

    	I knew Saberhagen started them, but I have heard of other SF
    writers working on Berserker stories, or am I misinformed?  Is "The
    Doomsday Machine" the only Berserker story Spinrad did, and did
    he "copy" from Saberhagen?  Also, could the Berserker in the STAR
    TREK episode be considered a Saberhagen Berserker?
    
    	Larry
    

    No, Larry.  ST's device ate planets (matter) for fuel; the stranded
    crew died when the planet broke up.  (Recall also it basically went
    after the closest energy source--what ever starship was closest
    was its target.)  Berserkers' target was Badlife.  (Having read
    all Mr's S.'s berserker stories it seems apparent the Doomsday
    Machine was *based* on the berserker theme.
    
    Also, there is at least one book out with berserker stories not
    (solely) written by Saberhagen, but I can't recall the title (my
    records will remain a shambles until my library is finished).
    I'll look, but Jerry will probably enter the data before tomorrow.
    
    						Don
                                    

    BERSERKER BASE was an anthology of Berserker stories by various
    authors (with bridging material by Saberhagen), none of whom
    are Spinrad. For the record, the authors are: Stephen Donaldson,
    Connie Willis, Roger Zelazny, Poul Anderson, Edward Bryant, and
    Larry Niven. These are the only Beserker stories by anyone other
    than Saberhagen.
    
    While there certainly are similarities, I wouldn't consider the
    Doomsday Machine to be a Saberhagen-type Berserker in any more
    than a very general way.
    
    And, as far as I know, Spinrad hasn't written anything else on
    this idea.
    
    --- jerry

    Thanks!!!  You saved me a 3-box search!!!!
    
    						Don

    Although Spinrad appears not to have contributed to the BESERKER
    set of stories,he did make a very individual contribution to Moorcock's
    Jerry Cornelius character with a short called LAST HURRAH OF THE
    GOLDEN HORDE.The Jerry Cornelius cycle of stories was the first
    that I came across (approx. 1968) in which the originator invited
    other authors to contribute - encouraged them,in fact.Contributors
    included John Sladek,M.John Harrison,John Clute,Harlan Ellison (I
    think) and others.Spinrad's contribution was one of my favourite
    Cornelius stories - along with Clute,he managed to produce a Cornelius
    in character,but a story that differed sharply from most.
    
    Ian D.

    The non-Moorcock Cornelius stories can be found in the
    anthology THE NATURE OF THE CATASTROPHE.
    
    And by the by, while the Cornelius series may be the first you
    came across in which the originator invited others to contribute
    to it, it wasn't the *first* by a long shot. Lovecraft's Cthulhu
    Mythos beats it by 30+ years.
    
    --- jerry

    And didn't other people start writing Sherlock Holmes stories quite 
    early on?
    
    I never cared for the Jerry Cornelius stories myself.  I suppose 
    it was part of the joke that this mad, violent character would be
    a basic recurring figure in human history, but that didn't mean I 
    had to like the idea.  What a strange archetype to spend so many 
    novels on!  At least the settings were imaginative.
    
    /jlr

    re:.15
    
    Yes, people started writing Sherlock Holmes stories "quite early
    on", but Doyle didn't actively *encourage* others to do so, as
    both Lovecraft and Moorcock did.
    
    --- jerry

I just finished reading Child of Fortune, and I was a mite disappointed.
Basically, the book (at 500 pages) was about 200 pages too long.
Chop out 100 pages each on Edoku and Bloomenwald and you'd have something
a lot more readable and a lot less repetitive.

I know it's not supposed to be a "plot" book, but there isn't really a whole
lot more to it than that.  Moussa/Sunshine/Wendi is a really flat character.

I could pick at it some more, but I'll let the defenders get a word in first.  

Fire away!

- tom]

       NO defense from me. I never made it to page 100. Maybe I'll try
       it again later if someone convinces me it picks up. Dull is the
       word I'd use to describe it. liesl