[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

579.0. "He who makes the rules, writes the books." by DPD09::WISNIEWSKI (ADEPT of the Virtual Space.) Thu Feb 18 1988 03:01

                                                     
    He who makes the rules, runs the world(s).
    
    I don't care if it's fantasy like Asprin's Myth series,
    or Niven's "Tales of Known Space" series, or Chalker's
    "Well World" series, the thing that makes these jaunts
    into altered reality rewarding is allowing the reader
    to figure out the rules and begin to predict the flow
    of events.
    
    While the rules can predict the general course of the
    action, the meat then becomes the subplots, intrigues,
    and subterfuge that flesh out the rest of the stories.
    
    Too many times have I started a book or series and 
    found there was too much ACTION and not enough framework
    to hang it on (I think of the Heroes in Hell saga, I got
    4 books into it before the repeditive action wore me out
    and I had to quit-- it was like reading a Harlequin romance
    and waiting for the plot to begin).
   
    
    Too many times have I been suckered in, but fortunatly I live 
    close to a Half price book store.  I admit  I'm a sucker for
    a good premise, but I want to know what built that premise, 
    not just that 
                      We're on Asan-4
                      The Aliens are attacking
                      Let's fight back
                      No, Let's argue about making peace.
                      No, We should defend ourself
                      It works out, we're all happy.
    
    BUT WHY?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
579.1Sequels hardly ever match up...SNDCSL::SMITHWilliam P.N. (WOOKIE::) SmithThu Feb 18 1988 14:5937
    Part of the problem may just be that series tend to go downhill. IMHO,
    this is due to a number of reasons: 
    
    1)	Reader burnout.  After too much time with a given author, you need
    a break.  I once made the mistake of trying to read the Foundation
    series (what are we up to, 6 books now?) all in a row, and by the time
    I got done I just wanted to be done. 
    
    2)	Writer burnout.  The author has used up all of the good stuff that
    will fit into a given universe or premise, but the books are so popular
    (and the advances buy so many groceries) that books keep getting
    written anyway.  The intro to M.Y.T.H. Inc. Link tells how Robert Lynn
    Asprin is at this point and trying to branch out, let's hope it works.
    Note that Niven's Known Space stuff started out only loosely connected,
    which left a lot of room for new stories without a rigid framework. 
    
    
    3)	Money.  If the first couple of books do well, there's a lot of
    demand for sequels, and even if the sequels don't match up to the
    quality of the original, people will buy them in hopes of getting more
    good stuff, and some authors will spew forth words to reap the rewards.
    A perfect example is the Hammers Slammers series, the first one was
    quite good, with a plot, characters, action, and lotsa high tech toys
    and winning by tactics against overwhelming odds, but I just finished
    the last one (darn, can't remember the name) and I just couldn't get
    into the characters, the toys were gone (no tanks at all, the most
    high-tech they had was a laser communicator that could barely lock onto
    it's sattellite), and the whole plot (if you can call it that) was an
    excuse for blasting tens of thousands of civilians to pieces with a
    'calliope' for no discernable reason.  Absolute dreck, and I had been
    warned that it wasn't great, but beacuse I liked the _first_ one, I
    bought the last.  It'll even be hard to keep from buying the next
    one....
    
    Willie 
    
    
579.2Plot?? We don't need no stinkin' plot!!CSMSRE::WRIGHTDain BramageThu Feb 18 1988 15:2332
    
    Willie -
    
    Hammers Slammers was written by Drake as a series of Vignettes about
    men in war, what it is like and how it effects them.  Up until his
    latest novel, it all delt with the armour end of the slammers, but
    he finally approached the infantry side.
    
    In all of his Slammer stories Drake takes a given set of circumstances
    and plays with them.  And while the book does involve the slaughter
    of thousands, it is mainly about the problems a Feild Grade officer
    (a LT. in this case) can run into by being the senior most officer
    present with blanket authority on one hand, and a need one the other
    to fulfill the contract signed by Hammer...If they do not fullfil
    the contract, the Bonding Authority will not support/back them,
    which means no more work.
    
    And yes, the plot is thin, but as a study of an officer used to
    clear cut problems, with a visible enemy, and a chain of command
    to fall back on, dealing with a situation beyond his experience
    and possibly abbilities, it is a good read.
    
    And I can not think of any Drake novels that did have a thick plot
    (ala herberts early works...IMHO)
    
    BTW - Does the village of Mai Lau (sp??) ring any bells??  I think
    Drake might have been reffering/thinking about that little incident
    when writing that novel.
    
    Later,
    
    Clark.
579.3Let's hear it for LIMITED series!UCOUNT::BAILEYCorporate SleuthThu Feb 18 1988 18:4327
    I agree with -.2 that writers (and readers) suffer from burnout
    and bent motivations.
    
    I couldn't get past the fifth Thieve's World book, even though I
    really enjoyed the series up to then.  Enuough already!
    
    And I once heard Anne McCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern) speak.  At
    that time she gave out paperback copies of her Dinosaur Planet book,
    but confided that it ended in a never-ending LITERAL cliffhanger!
    (Her characters are in suspended animation on the edge of a cliff
    to wait out Trouble!)  But she was bored with the whole thing and
    wasn't sure she would ever conclude the story.  (She wrote it only
    becuase she found herself in a contract with her publisher to do
    so, not because she was enthused about it!) (Wouldn't THAT attitude
    drive Dynasty or Dallas fans nuts!!!)  Fortunately for fans, she
    changed her mind and produced The Dinosaur Planet Survivors, so
    at least we don't have to out-think her like the Margaret Mitchell
    fans are always doing about Gone With The Wind!
    
    I must say, though, I am impressed with the completist fans who
    retain their enthusiasm about any author forever and ever, through
    thick and thin!  I guess my attention span is too short!
    
    Back to the Books!
    
    Sherry 
                                                
579.4some history of Doc Smith's seriesERASER::KALLISA Dhole isn't a political animal.Fri Feb 19 1988 17:5275
    On the business of sequelae and series:
    
    Since I had the honor to be a friend of Doc Smith, I can comment
    a little on the phenomena from the standpoint of three series he
    was involved with: The Skylark, the Lensmen, and the Family d'Alembert
    (he was just starting that one when he died).
    
    Skylark first:
    
    Doc wrote _A Skylark of Space_ back long before I was born, and
    I'm 50.  At the time, it was revolutionary, and it was meant as
    a one-shot novel (in fact, in the original version, he collaborated
    with a Lee Hawkins Garby; he was uncomfortable writing the romantic
    stuff, and Mrs Garby poured it on with a ladle; she got a co-byline
    on the cover of the original book).  It was _so_ revolutionary,
    though, that there was intense pressure for a sequel.  After a while,
    Doc obliged, with _Skylark Three_.  _Skylark Three_, though, was
    supposed to end it.  In order to dio that, though, Doc had one of
    his main characters, Dr. Mark C. DuQuense, killed about as dead
    as it was possible to kill someone.  After a while, there was _intense_
    pressure put on Doc from fans and editors alike to write a sequel
    to that.  Finally, he did (the editor was so happy to run it that
    when a disgruntled Doc sent in a draft of what he'd written asking
    for suggestions, the then editor, F. Orlin Tremaine, ran the draft!
    This had, among other things, the interesting situation that apparently
    Crane's manservant, Shiro, was left behind in fourth dimensional
    space when the Skylarkers returned to "our" space).  It was called
    _Skylark of Valeron_, and in order to make it credible, Doc had
    to spend more than a chapter "unkilling" Blackie DuQuense is a credible
    way.  He vowed not to get stuck that way again, so though he intended
    no more sequels, he devised a situation for DuQuense that had him
    apparently stuck, but with a loophole you could sail a battleship
    through, _if_ a sequel was forthcoming.  Eventually, it was, and
    Doc activated his hidden mechanism.  [The sequel, _Skylark DuQuense,
    had no definite ending in the sense the earlier books did.]
    
    The Lensman Series was conceived as a single work, starting from
    _Galactic Patrol_ and ending with _Children of the Lens_.  The climax
    of _Children of the Lens_, where Clarissa "seeks out" Kimball Kinnison,
    was written before the first draft of _Galactic Patrol_ was complete,
    if I'm to have believed Doc.   The story is far more integrated
    than an ordinary "series," because it's really one work.  [There
    are some differences, though, between what was in the magazine version
    and the books.  John W. Campbell, Jr., was by that time editor of
    _Astounding_, and he wanted each layer of the Boskonian onion to
    remain a mystery until the next "novel."  Doc's original idea was
    to lay the whole thing out from the start, but since JWC was paying
    the bills, he went along with the gag.  When the book "series" came
    out, Doc "prefaced" _Galactic Patrol_ with a highly reworked version
    of his novelette, "Triplanetary," placing the story in the Lensman
    universe and relating characters genetically to those in the later
    stories.  One Eddorian, Gharlane, and an Arisian fusion, collectively
    known as Mentor, plus an Arisian watchman, Eukinodor, were continuing
    characters in all six books.  In addition, Doc added another book,
    _First Lensman_, which gave the genesis of the Galactic Patrol.]
    The related "Vortex Blaster" stories of Neil Cloud, while clearly
    in the Lensman universe, were not part of the series.
    
    The Family d'Alembert series was to be an interstellar espionage/action
    series.  Doc was writing stories with the clear intention of writing
    as many sequelae as the public would put up with.  Alas, he had
    a heart attack before it could get off the ground.
    
    Additionally, he had in the works a "Subspace" trilogy.  The first
    book, _Subspasce Explorers_, was published before his death.  He
    had a longish manyuscript that he was going to break into two books,
    _Subspace Second_ and _Subspace Safari_.  He died with the project
    uncompleted, and it was published posthumously as _Subspace Encounter_,
    with some modifications (in the original trilogy, for instance,
    the Adamses nor anybody else was to learn who or what "the operator"
    was, or if one even existed).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    
579.5Sequels Never Are!DPD09::WISNIEWSKIADEPT of the Virtual Space.Sun Feb 21 1988 01:4231
    Ditto on the _Thieves World_ saga, I got 3-4 books in and 
    
                     ARRRG!
    
    I don't read these books for the sheer joy of deluging myself
    with the sites, sounds and smells of another place and time.
    
    Give me a reason to be here! What ever the cause of an
    author writing it, you got to have some plot or the later
    books fall apart.
    
    I'm reminded of the _Saga of the Hechee_ by Pohl. 
    
    The first book was great, full of ideas, toys, mysteries, and struggle
    to find out about the Aliens.  By the time the last book came out,
    it was like watching the bowling ball come back on a return lane;
    
    'Gee, Aliens have god-like Aliens that perplex them too!'
    
    Better that some of the _Possibilities_ be left up to the imagination
    of the reader, than hammered to bed in a subsequent novel.
    
    _The Ringworld Engineers_ by Niven was a disappointment because
    of the attempt to tie all the loose ends togeather and explain 
    all the open ends of _Known Space_ and _Ringworld_.
    
    I'm a fan and I'll buy the stuff, but I don't like being milked
    by computer companies, the IRS, and SF writers (in that order).]
    
    
    
579.6SA1794::CHARBONNDWhat a pitcher!Mon Feb 22 1988 09:307
    re .5 I *liked* The Ringworld Engineers for exactly that reason-
    loose ends drive me crazy !! Goddam writers can't plot !!
    
    Off and on the subject, New Destinies is running stories from 
    _The Man-Kzin Wars_ , a collaborative effort to fill in details
    of the wars referred to in Ringworld. Newest is _Cathouse_ by
    Dean Ing.