Conference noted::sf

    I would engineer in the ability to make our own vitamins.  If I
    had to pick one vitamin, it would be vitamin C.  Everything in the
    world except primates synthesizes its own vitamin C, which is a
    particularly volatile vitamin.  But I'd really like to eliminate
    vitamin needs generally.  Ditto essential amino acids.
    
    These alterations would allow humans to survive on much simpler
    diets without danger of malnutrition.
    
    Perhaps more important to folks with plenty of food would be to
    CUT OUT the genes for one of the immunoglobins, I think IgE.  This
    is apparently a useless near-copy of one of the useful immunoglobins.
    IgE is more than useless; it's harmful; it causes allergies.  It
    is not known to occur in any mammals except people and horses.
    
    From a science-fictional angle, these mutations would be the ones
    I'd wish to give colonists to other Earth-like planets, where they
    would probably not find their vitamins unless they brought them,
    and where they WOULD certainly find funny new biochemicals.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

How about a true estrus cycle like many animals have?  It would
certainly be a change if males and females could only get REALLY
interested in you-know-what at certain times of the month.  I'd
love to see what all the social ramifications of THAT would be!

    Hm.  A monthly or annual breeding season sounds more like Human-Minus
    than Human-Plus.  Given that humans seem to have a pair-bonding
    instinct (marriage is found in every culture) but that this instinct
    seems rather weak (look at the divorce rate), I suspect that a breeding
    season would tend to weaken the institution of marriage.
    
    I would expect that these re-vamped humans would have households
    composed of siblings plus the children of the sisters.  Little boys
    would look to their uncles as role models and have only a casual
    interest in their fathers.  Marriages might exist from time to time
    but would be arranged rather than romantic.
    
    A yearly cycle would make this much more emphatic than a monthly
    cycle.  If the cycle were as frequent as a month, there might not
    be that much change to family structure.
    
    If everyone goes into season at once, there would be profound social
    impact -- a physically enforced holiday schedule, and probably social
    rules about not mentioned out of season certain things that happened
    in season.  And who runs the all-night grocery and the police station
    if EVERYONE is preoccupied?  Some folk will have to staff the tiller,
    so it would not do to make the urge overpowering.
    
    LeGuin explores something like this in "The Left Hand of Darkness,"
    where we meet a humanoid race that not only has a monthly breeding
    cycle but is hermaphroditic.  However, everyone does not come into
    season at once.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	How about once every seven years?
    
    	Larry
    

    Here's something we could probably do well before tinkering with
    actual human genetics -- it would be both technically and politically
    easier: genetic tinkering of our intestinal flora.  After all, the
    gene engineer's favorite guinea pig is our very own E. coli bacteria.
    
    You could, for instance, take the bacteria and protozoa that live
    in the guts of termites and enable them to digest cellulose and
    either enable these creatures to live in the human gut or transfer
    their digestive capacity to something we already carry.  Result:
    you could eat grass or bark or sawdust and at least get some calories
    out of them.
    
    Also, our intestinal flora already make some of our vitamins for
    us.  Perhaps they could be persuaded to make more.  And maybe some
    essential amino acids while we're at it.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

re: improved intestinal flora

Isn't cellulose hard for even bacteria to break up?  My vague 
memories of biology tell me that herbivores need to work over the 
material for a long time and in several different stomachs in order 
to make use of it.  Our digestive systems aren't so rugged, and might 
have trouble carrying around a load of grass clippings for a week.
Wood fiber is so hard to digest that only termites do it.
Synthesis of vitamins and amino acids shouldn't be too hard, though,
and would eliminate major causes of malnutrition.

Now there's something that would make a difference.  How much of human 
history has been shaped by cultures running out of land (and by 
extension, food)?  When the 
nomads can't raise any more cattle, they take to raiding the cities.
If they themselves are grazers, then the steppe can support city-type 
populations.  Down goes the incidence of barbarian invasions.

/jlr

    Someone (name forgotten) did an amusing twist on the oestrus cycle
    bit about 30 years ago. Discovered 'agent' which restored cycle
    in humans, then broadcast it in the air. Turned out, with human
    perversity, that men went on a cycle of helpless desire/indifference...
    
    Ross Faneuf
    

< Note 402.7 by WHAT::FANEUF >
                               -< Oestrus twist >-

>    Someone (name forgotten) did an amusing twist on the oestrus cycle
>    bit about 30 years ago. Discovered 'agent' which restored cycle
>    in humans, then broadcast it in the air. Turned out, with human
>    perversity, that men went on a cycle of helpless desire/indifference...
>    
>    Ross Faneuf
    

Raymond Z. Gallun, I think, collected in "The Best of Raymond Z. Gallun".
I'll check when I get home.
kevin routley

    
    
    GILLS!!!
    
    Cmon, the earth's surface is 75% covered with water.  Imagine the
    possibilities...  
    I would bet that water soaks up nuclear radiation much slower than
    air (and there's sooo much water), that if there were a nuclear
    'exchange' the water may be somewhat habitable for longer than the
    atmosphere.
    
    I'm ready to jump into the sea!
    
                      

re: .-1

Yep, gills would not only open up more living area, but they open up 
volume as well.  A city could be ten miles across and a thousand feet
deep.

The sea is also a much milder environment in many ways, 
e.g. the temperature never changes much and there's no weather.
It's hard to do a lot of 
industrial operations underwater, but you can always use pressure
vessels just like we use vacuum chambers.

Dunno about water as bomb protection, though.  Setting off a nuclear 
bomb underwater would cause a devastating shock wave.  The fallout 
would circulate through the oceans just as it circulates through the air.

/jlr

How many warm blooded animals have gills?
How many animals with big brains have gills?
How much oxygen do you think we would need to extract (that is,
take out of solution) from sea water (or fresh water, if you prefer)?
We'll need an awful lot of concomittent body changes to accept gills.
Water of a given temperature has a more depleting effect on the body
than does air at a similar temperature.
What can you wear to keep you warm in water?  A light sweater or T-shirt
won't hack it.
If the gills have to be very large (as I contend they'll have to be
to exchange enough air), then your can't cover them up while keeping warm.
How will we hear?  Our ears are not well-developed for underwater use.
Our bodies will need better pressure maintenance and flotation mechanisms,
as well as swimming controls.  
How will we see?  It gets dark not too far down.

I'd prefer to see some good land-based enhancements made, as the nutrition
engancements noted earlier, or in disease control, or just raw abilities,
like strength, speed, agility, and such.

- tom powers]

    Pressure is not too much of a problem if your body cavities are
    full of water instead of air.  You are, in effect, solid water from
    stem to stern and pressures equalize all the way through.
    
    Temperature, on the other hand, is a real problem.  I would solve
    it by a network of blood vessels using counter-current heat exchange.
    Many animals have these.  Notably, sea birds and sea mammals have
    them in their extremities and under their skin to help conserve
    warmth.  So you would install a system of the same sort between
    the gills and the rest of the body.  Once that is our of the way,
    you insulate the skin with blubber, fur, or heavy-duty wet-suits.
    (If the latter, we are probably talking about amphibious people,
    not purely aquatic.)
    
    How about giving the gills to dolphins and whales instead of humans?
    They are already adapted in terms of streamlining, insulation, and
    snese organs.  Imagine the energy they'd save and the safety they'd
    have if they didn't have to come put for air.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    The latest Scientific American has an article on Antarctic fish
    and how they "solved" their temperature problems (don't want to
    sound *too* teleogical).  Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but
    thought the pointer might be useful given this discussion.
    
    len.
    

    	How about transplanting human brains into dolphin bodies?
    
    	Larry
    

    To keep it within the realm of genetic engineering, how about
    engineering dolphins to have more humanlike brains?  See the works
    of David Brin (described in 309), especially "Startide Rising,"
    where about half the characters are genetically engineered dolphins.
    
    However, the main problem with a dolphin body is that it has no
    hands.  To supply these while maintaining streamlining, you could
    either design arms that fold out of the way, or supply the creature
    with, say, a tongue divided into several tentacles.  Or you could
    switch from dolphins to squids.
    
    But we seem to have left HUMAN genetic engineering behind.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I'd like to have the regenerative abilities of salamanders, who
    can re-grow lost limbs.
    
    Then there are animal senses.  ("Heaven only knowses the noselessness
    of Man," as Edward Lear said.)  Besides enhanced smell, there is
    hearing, echolocation, infrared and ultraviolet vision, polarization
    sensitivity, and electric and magnetic perception, to name a few.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Can salamanders regrow all their limbs, or just their tails?  A tail 
is fairly simple to begin with, and probably doesn't need the complex 
rewiring required for an arm.

I don't know about better senses.  It would be nice, but we 
don't use the ones we have all that thoroughly.  Would there be any 
social effect caused by being able to perceive electric fields?  Maybe fewer 
babies would put their fingers into sockets, but I doubt it would 
effect much else.  

On the other hand, a better sense of smell would allow
you to perceive other people's moods more directly. That could have 
a big impact.  Suppose that your nose was keen enough to detect the 
slight sweating caused by lying - it would revolutionize human behavior.
No more polite evasions, no more "hey baby, you know you're the one",
no more used car salesmen.  People might have to wear heavy perfume 
just to get through the day.

/jlr

    	Trying to relate this to the last reply, in Harry Harrison's
    1984 novel, WEST OF EDEN, the alternate Earth's intelligent reptiles
    (evolved from the dinosaurs on an Earth where an asteroid did NOT
    wipe them out) communicated not only with their voices, but with
    a multitude of subtle body motions, so that it was impossible for
    them to lie to one another - in fact, that trait actually made the
    concept of lying UNKNOWN to them, until the leader of one of their
    new cities in North America learned of lying from a human captive.
    
    	Larry
    

    Re .17
    
    Yes, salamanders re-grow legs as well as tails.  Lizards re-grow tails
    but not legs, so far as I know.
    
    An electric sense might be just as useful for detecting moods and
    state of mind and health as would a keener sense of smell.
    
    Re .18
    
    I have a very difficult time believing in totally truthful creatures
    based on what I've heard so far.  We use body language too, and
    can lie with it just as with words.  Unless the movements are
    involuntary, like blushing or coughing, they wouldn't be much use
    for lie-proofing.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	Yes - in Harrison's book, they were involuntary, thus the inability
    to lie.  The Ylanie (as the reptiles were called) could NOT control
    their body movemets when they spoke.  That is why the Ylanie leader,
    Vainte, in the new city, had to go into hiding to pretend mourning
    over having an opponent murdered - she had messengers claim she
    was in mourning, but her whole body showed nothing but unbridled 
    joy.
    	Body movement s were so ingrained in Ylanie speech that Harrison
    had to use non-alphabetic symbols when he wrote Ylanie words to
    even try to "explain" the body movements' messages.  The Ylanie
    had no written language as a consequence of this characteristic.
    
    	Larry
    

    	On the Arts and Entertainment Network (cable), there is a three
    part British series being shown on Saturday nights at 10 pm EDT 
    called FIRST BORN, about a secret British government experiment to
    produce a race of beings who are half human and half primate.  The
    story is based on the events surrounding Gordon, the only successful
    "result" of the combining of human sperm in a gorilla's ovum.  
    
        FB is rather well done, and not B-grade schlock as one might 
    expect.  It brings up a lot of thought-provoking issues, such as how 
    the government wanted to use these beings as essentially a race of
    expendible slaves.  The chief scientist on the project wants to create
    a race with human intelligence but none of the aggresiveness.
    
        BTW, I am aware that it is genetically "impossible" to create a
    human-gorilla baby, but all I can say is I "know" faster-than-light
    travel is also impossible, but I still watch STAR TREK every week.
    
    	Larry
                                                                      

    Re .21
    
    Oh, not necessarily THAT impossible.  The genetics are very similar,
    even there are different numbers of chromosomes.  I have heard
    speculations that such a cross WOULD be viable, though probably a
    sterile "mule."  The gestation periods and the birth weights for the
    two species are identical, too, which makes things simpler.
    
    What does Gordon look like?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    	Gordon started out looking like a very hairy human baby, and
    he lost most of his body hair as he got older.  Except for the
    fact that he doesn't coo, gurgle, or smile, Gordon looks like a 
    normal human infant.
    
    	One of the questions posed by the government official to the 
    chief scientist was if Gordon and his kind would be able to breed
    one day.  The scientist said they'd have to wait quite a while to
    find out.
    
    	Larry
           

    An ethnic group that is treated as slaves and menials isn't going 
    to stay non-agressive for long, particularly when they figure out 
    that they're ten times stronger than their masters...  I would 
    think that behavioral patterns like passivity or aggressiveness
    depend a whole lot on environment as well as genetics.
    
    /jlr

    This series was shown in the UK earlier this year under the name
    "GOR".  The story was quite good, but I suspect that it is only
    just as the book should have been.  I have never read the book,
    but suspect that it would be too predictable after the series. 
    
    I must admit that I do prefer to read a book before I see a
    dramatisation of any book. (especially SF material)
    
    A good enough series, though in my opinion a bit long winded.
    
    
    Bob 

From:	US1RMC::"lundberg@kadets.d20.co.edu" "MAIL-11 Daemon" 25-AUG-1994 
To:	Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
CC:	
Subj:	NEW: GENTALK - Genetic engineering

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