Conference noted::sf

    I intended to add this note as a reply to #11, Favorite SF films.
    But please keep the conference going.
    
    JM

    Re .0:
    
    Sorry, I cannot see _Close Encounters_ as anything great, except
    as a great bore.  As Ben Bova once said, the science fiction starts
    after the film ends.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

  Re: .0

  I'm equally sorry.  "Close Encounters" had 10 minutes of fair-to-middlin'
  special effects.  Apart from those 10 minutes, I thought it was about the
  stupidest SF film I've ever seen (and I'll put up with pretty bad acting,
  bad plotting, bad direction, and *terrible* dialogue before I'll call an
  SF film stupid).

  Periodically throughout the film, we saw a whole platoon of people wandering
  around in colored uniforms saying idiotic things like "that sounds like a
  semi-hemi-demi-quaver."  Anyone know what they were supposed to be doing?

  JP
    
  P.S., has anyone else seen "The Philadelphia Experiment?"  It wasn't bad
  in any of the aforementioned categories...

  Re: .2,.3

  I vote you.
  No "Sense of Wonder". (Is this term popular in US ?)

>  P.S., has anyone else seen "The Philadelphia Experiment?"  It wasn't bad
>  in any of the aforementioned categories...

Especially digital's TVCM -:)

-if

Ditto the nay on CE3K.  The aliens' behavior makes no sense at all 
until you realize that they're not aliens, they're angels.  
Why program people with the location of the
meeting place?  Can't these ultra-tech aliens just write a note? 
Nope, they've got to imbue these people with a religious vision 
and make their journey to the meeting a test of faith.  Why swoop down to 
catch this kid amidst thunder and lightning?  Because that's the way 
spirits manifest themselves.

You know, there's a good chance that there really are aliens 
somewhere out there.  Someday we might even meet them.  They're not 
going to be angels, and they're not going to be demons, they're going 
to be ... different.  If we don't meet them with more imagination
we'll be in trouble.

/jlr

Re: .0

After perusing these replies, I'm afraid we might have given you a
wrong impression.  You shouldn't think that people are just waiting to jump
on any opinion that you express.  It's just that *this* subject hit a
particular hot button of mine -- I had no choice but to start raving...

Now on to particulars.  Besides the weird groups of people wandering around
in brightly-colored uniforms, what annoyed me most was one aspect of the
grand finale.  A huge crowd of formerly-lost people wander out of the
spaceship to meet the group that has come to watch the arrival.  (I was
trying to spot Judge Crater and Ambrose Bierce even though I had no way of
knowing  whether I'd recognize them.) What I did see was the five pilots
who were lost in the infamous "Bermuda Triangle" incident.  This was cheap,
cheap, cheap.  That incident was solved ages ago and the solution had nothing
to do with UFOs...

Anyway, even though we may disagree about particulars, I enjoy seeing what
other people think of SF in books or films.  After all, bad SF is lots better
than no SF.

JP

    NOVA did a program about the Bermuda Triangle a couple of years
    ago.  If memory serves me well, the five probably lost their bearings
    while on a training flight and wound up on the wrong side of a chain
    of islands.  They headed east, thinking they would eventually hit
    the islands that were, in probable fact, behind them.  They would
    then have run out of fuel, crashed at sea, and sunk.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Wow, it seems that I'm in the minority!  At least a lot of other
    people have seen CE3K and have some strong opinions about what they
    disliked and why.
    
    Yes, I agree that a lot of the scenes don't appear to make sense.
     Incidentally, I've read a few pieces on the making of this film.
     It seems that at the time Speilberg had a difficult time convincing
    the studio that he needed more money and more time to complete his
    cinematic vision.   He also had a tough time deciding on what the
    aliens should look like, and whether or not they would even be shown
    in the film.  In fact, there are at least three different species
    of ETs shown in the film.  Speilberg had a lot of second thoughts
    about other aspects of the film.  Perhaps the somewhat disconnected
    sequence of the film is a reflection of his artistic decisions.
     On the other hand, one might argue that the various seemingly
    disconnected sequences of the film in fact heighten the sense of
    mystery, the UNKNOWN.
    
    Speilberg in fact got a rare opportunity to re-edit his film after
    its initial theatrical run.  In "The Special Edition" version of
    CE3K, he trimmed out much of Richard Dreyfus's manaiacal antics,
    and added a new ending.
    
    Sure, the film has its flaws, but for me at least, this is a
    great movie.  It is far superior to "ET" and certainly more
    philisophical than most SF films.  The extraterrestrials of
    "Close Encounters" are quite different from the aliens that have
    been traditionally depicted by Hollywood.
    
    Are the scenes disconnected?  Do the visitors from space act
    irrationally?  Maybe, but if you ever got a sunburn on HALF of your
    face in the middle of the night, maybe you'd have a different opinion.
    
    WATCH THE SKIES ---- ****** -------
    
    JM

    Re .9:
    
    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder; that's why there are baby
    warthogs.  Nor would I want to discourage you from seeing _anything_
    you enjoyed, from Sophocles to _Casper, The Friendly Ghost_.
    
    Hiowever, when praise for a film must be modified with qualifications,
    such as excusing poor aspects of a film because the person(s) making
    it were unsure or confused in intent or detail... then it's a film
    that doesn't stand on its own merit.
    
    James Blish once coined the term "idiot novel," meaning that the
    basic action takes place only because all the characters are opr
    act like idiots: one sensible action and the thing would fall apart.
    My feelings about the film are parallel to the Blish observation.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    OUCH!!!
    
    Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder.    Is there ANYBODY else
    out there who like Close Encounters?  Maybe they left me on the
    wrong planet?
    
    By the way M. Kallis, what are your favorite SF films?
    
    Joe McMullen  ( I thought the line was "We are not alone")
    
    

    re .11:
    
    I went into this a bit in another note, but favorite SF films include:
    
    The _Star Wars_ trilogy
    _The Day the Earth Stood Still_
    _Forbidden Planet_
    _The Time Machine_
    _The Thing_
    
    for straight SF, 
    
    if "f" iss supposed to include fantasy, I'd also have to add:
    
    _Dracula_ (the Lugosi version)
    _Raiders of the Lost Ark_
    _Ladyhawke_
    _Frankenstein_ (Karloff)
    _Excalibur_
    _Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein_  (try it; you'll like it!)
    
    But I usually stress the "S" in "SF."
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    
    
    I'll come to the aid of the minority, I liked Close Encounters!
    
    Not my favorite, but I thought it was well done and very unique.
    Aliens were not betrayed as vicious creatures bent on world domination,
    but just as explorers and scientists like us.  They communicated
    with music, which I liked because I think music is sort of a 'universal
    language'.  I liked Dreyfuss and thought the small amounts of comedy
    were useful for levity.
    
    As a side, the last time I say it was in Pittsburgh, at an outdoor
    viewing on Flagstaff Hill (part of Schenley Park for you 'burghers).
    It was great!! I kept looking over my shoulder to see if *anyone*
    else (up there) was watching, too!
    
    Bob
    

    Yes, there were aspects of spiritual visitation, discipleship, and
    initiation. >Just because we're computer types shouldn't blind us
    to the emotional side of consciousness. The firm impression of the
    Devil's Tower acted like a'filter'; those that truly rec'd the message
    (i.e. are sympatico) will try to show up. The secret protects itself.
    I felt that some of the symbology was strained, the 5-note motif
    and the deaf-and-dumb hand signals thing didn't work at all.
    
    Why should aliens act 'rationally'? why should a film producer?
    I felt the opening scenes, the rediscovery of the WWII planes in
    Mexico, with the stunned, sunburned old man, were amazing. I saw
    the film in an early version of IMAX with at least 6-channel stereo.
    
    It worked for me !
    
    

    Don't know where to begin replying.  CE was unfortunate to have
    come out around Star Wars.  I recall people saying they expected
    Star Wars to be straight SF & got pulp, then saw CE expecting pulp
    and getting a quiet, comtempory study in First Contact.
    
    What was slow?  Boring?  Dull?  Are we so overstimulated by special
    effects (like DOOM--based on Herbert's DUNE) we doze off if the
    screen stops flashing?  
    
    CE's scenario is aligned with the basic idea of SF: Put an ordinary
    Joe in a fantastic situation and see what he does.  Recall the
    helicopter scene.  The majority believed the Army over the "implant"
    ("Its yer nat'ral order"), but our hero perservered.
    
    Re: The "Special Edition".  Too bad he screwed it up.  *I* could
    have done a better job.  Why show the inside of the ship?  There
    went some of the Wonder.  Why cut the scenes in which Dreyfuss
    was figuring out what he was "seeing" in his head?  No buildup to
    the TV revelation.  Very anti-climactic.  And all of a sudden his
    wife ups and leaves him.  Didn't seem to give him much of a chance.
    
    Next time you watch it try to imagine *you* woke up thinking you
    had a bad dream and see a halfa-sunburn in the mirror.  What would
    you do?  Go to Tan-o-rama to burn the other side and save your job?
    
    Re: Flight 19:  I haven't heard the bodies or planes were found.
    What happened to 19 *after* radio contact was lost?  A little
    rationalization music, please, and away we go.
    
    The Devil's Tower (they *climbed* it?) installation was a government
    (that's G U V 'M I N T) installation and there's always more bodies
    than is neccessary.  Look around.
    
    A note?  "From the desk of E.T."  Please meet me at Devil's Tower,
    Wyoming in 2 weeks.  I'll be the one in the spaceship.
    
    Ever occur to you maybe the Visitors wanted civilians present? 
    
    As for the people being dropped off (Watch your step, ladies; last
    step's the bottom),  seems like a good way to present your bona
    fides.
    
    By now you may think I liked Close Encounters.  The original.  The
    dull, slow, boring original.  You're correct.  And, I'd be happy
    to explain (try, anyway) parts which may have confused you.
    
    							Don
    
    P.S.  Thanks.  I feel better now.
        
    P.P.S.  "Watch the skies" is from THE THING.

    Remember this when discussing "Close Encounters":  Spielberg was
    re-telling a current popular myth -- the Flying Saucer myth.  You
    can glean the basic elements of this myth from the tabloids they
    sell at the checkout counters and the nutty little books that are
    equally likely to end up in the "science" section or the "occult"
    section of the bookstore.  Some elements are:
    
    There are ETs trying to contact us (or casing us for future invasion,
    or collecting us as specimens; Spielberg uses the first with a dash
    of the third).
    
    They are roughly humanoid, but only roughly.
    
    They habitually appear to private individuals, often off in the
    country, instead of landing in Time Square, or in front of the
    Washington Monument, or hovering over the UN building, or any of
    the other things more publicity-oriented aliens have done in SF.
    (On the other hand, if they are trying to be secretive, they are 
    failing miserablly.)
    
    The Military/Industrial Establishment is in a conspiracy to hide
    these "facts" from the public, though they are, at some high level
    of security, vividly aware of the situation.
    
    End list.
    
    Spielberg wove a few strands of plot over this myth to compose "Close
    Encounters."  Many of the logical and dramatic flaws in the movie
    are directly inherited from the myth.  Perhaps it was a mistake
    to try and be so faithful to the myth, but faithful he was.
    
    I liked it in moderate degree.  The special effects are beautiful.
    The actions of the saucers, as they meekly obey Dreyfus's hand-signal
    to pass, as they buzz people and terrorize houses, were funny and/or
    frightening.  (How many people noticed the little red glow-ball
    that followed the three saucers around like the littlest Chinese
    mushroom from Fantasia, or like the littlest member from any number
    of Walt Disney cartoon teams?)
    
    But I don't care much for the myth.  I especially don't care for
    some of the anti-intellectual elements in it.  And I didn't like
    them in the movie, either.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Ummmm, following the current popular myth sounds like the kiss of
    death, or at least a serious mythadventure. (Sorry!!!)
    
    I liked CE3K's special effects- Doug Trumbell(sp?) always does a
    good job (except maybe "Silent Running") in the SPFX. The alien
    ship was a bit too much like a chandellier, but the rest was
    competent or better.
    
    The logic, though, was in Park (that is, it not only won't go on
    its own, it won't roll if you push it...). It's not the aliens
    that are implausable, it's the humans. I had a very hard time
    believing any of the characters, particularly Roy. I guess I am
    disappointed that Roy doesn't direct his life more- he is just
    the brain-washed stooge of the aliens. Thus, he's not interesting.
    (The woman who loses her son is more interesting, but the film
    doesn't focus on her, and she never seems to do anything con-
    structive about recovering him, except go where she's directed).
    "Cutesy" things like the "tinkerbelle" alien ship turn me off
    also.
    
    John O.
    

re: .16

The UFO myth is nicely treated in a recent low budget feature called "UFOria".
It's about the folks who live in trailers and work in supermarkets 
and listen to country music and wait for the aliens to come and make 
it all all right.  It parallels CE3K pretty closely, but is low-key 
and funny.  Stars Cindy Williams and Fred Ward (Gus Grissom and Remo Williams),
both of which do fine jobs.

/jlr

    More possitively, I really liked Star Trek II.  I thought Kahn was
    great and that it gave all the characters a chance to ACT.  (Unlike
    the first where you kept seeing views of the Enterprise all the
    time...).
    

    
       For my brief two cents, I feel that all movies have weak spots.
    My measure of a good movie is simple: did it move me or impress
    me in an emotional way ?  CE3K was moderately enjoyable to me but
    not in my list of favorites, which follow.
    
    Blade Runner
    Star Trek III
    Buckaroo Banzai (I can hardly wait for the comments.....)
    Last Starfighter
    The Thing (original and remake, but for different reasons)
    Forbidden Planet
    The Day The Earth Stood Still
    
    That should do for now, there are others which are much fun as well.
    
        If you are wondering why Star Trek II is not on the list, it
    was to make the point that I liked III much better .  I felt the
    characters had more of the feeling of cameraderie and spirit . 
    I really enjoyed the excellent portrayal of the Klingons .  I thought
    that II was very good and was hoping that they would not blow it
    on III, I was pleasantly surprised .
    
    Regards,
    Jon
    

    Unless I missed it here, I didn't see anyone mention "Terminator".        
    True, Arnold's acting was right out of the "Sylvester Stallone School
    for the Acting Impaired" but for his part it was probably just as
    well.  The use of FX was excellent, the other acting was very good, 
    and the story line & pace were really right on the money; never a dull 
    moment...   
    
    Other favs are:
      
    Lathe of Heaven - 	Run on the PBS every once in a while.  This is 
    			probably my all time favorite, although I haven't
    			seen it in years. Any clues as to when it will be
    			on again?
    Robinson Carusoe - 	If you want to know where "Enemy Mine" stole some
    on Mars	  	of its plot, this is the one.                 
    Wizard of OZ -	Still get into watching it year after year....
                                   
    For newer stuff:
    
    Star Wars I, II -	Sorry, III bored me right out of my furry little socks.
    Star Trek II, III - With II being my favorite. This one I can see endlessly.
    Terminator	-	Another one I can (have) watched over and over.
    Blade Runner -	Great scenary/FX. Acting? ehhh...
    1984 -		Kind of depressing but awesome acting by John Hurt.
    Altered States - 	Really a trip man. Carlos Castaneda watch out.
    			William Hurt is superb.
    

re:.20


I would add "War of the Worlds" to your list of favorites. It was the 
movie that sparked my imagination and hooked me on SF.


MartyJ

I agree about "Terminator" and "Altered States" -- great flicks both.  (see? 
I'm not that hard to please.)

Did anyone mention "Invaders From Mars?"  That was the one where the kid
wakes up to see a flying saucer land in the vacant lot behind his house.
The Martians bury the saucer and capture people who crossed the lot by 
using the old "ant lion" trick.  When the Martians capture someone, they
implant a little brain controller at the base of the neck.  Eventually,
the kid's parents get caught and...

But that would be telling.

I've been told that there are a couple of versions of this flick and even
that it is possible to get a color print.  Can jayembee fill us in?

JP

    
    RE: 22
    	
    How could anyone not include "War of the Worlds". You're right, this
    one really hooked me on SF as a kid too, as I'm sure it did most of us.
    I can still "hear" the sound of the Martian heat rays.... Great!
    
    Also, I've got to list "Soylent Green" right up there on top. I 
    remember this coming out when there was a growing concern about the
    World's population explosion. It was realistic enough to spark alot 
    debate about birth control and and feeding the multitudes. Some
    really classic thoughts here. I appreciate my strawberry preserves
    alot more now than before I saw the movie...
                                                     
    And what about "Planet of the Apes"? Come on, tell me that isn't
    an all-time classic SF flick !!!          
               
    "Fantastic Voyage" anyone? 
    
    One other movie that isn't really a great one but is usually
    overlooked is the "Battle Star Galactica" made for TV movie.  
    Granted this is obviously a "Star Wars" clone it's still kinda fun. 
         
    In the back of my mind is a grade-B from the 50's(?). I can't remember
    the name of it, but it was about an Earth ship that picks up a lone
    alien (1st contact?) who turns out to be a kind of "Queen Bee" that
    replenishes herself by hypnotizing her prey then consumming their
    blood.  I really don't think the movie was *that* good, and I can't
    explain why, but for the life of me it still sticks in my mind.
    ???? Red Planet, or Blood Planet.... something like that.   
    

    I mind me of going to the movies as a kid and seeing 'Forbidden
    PLanet'. The comic interplay between Robby the Robot and the lush
    crewman (no, NOT Ann Francis) was just right for kids. But the thing
    that grabbed my imagination was the MUSIC of the departed aliens...
    'Four Million Years Old'... there was an article in KEYBOARD magazine
    recently about the husband&wife team, electronic music pioneers,
    who did the music for the film.

    re.24:  I believe you're refering to QUEEN OF BLOOD (book by Charles
    Nuetzel) starring John Saxon & someone nice to look at (but dreadful
    to behold) and I can't go further without looking it up.
    
    As for IFM, (as I said somewhere else) it was neck-checkin' time
    for this little kid for a few days after seeing it.
    
    re.25:  Ever here the music from FIRE MAIDENS FROM OUTER SPACE?
     Not on par with FP or later SF movies, but catchy nonetheless. 
     I liked music from EXCALIBER and CONAN #1.  I think there's a
    discussion on themes in the Movie notesfile.
    
    						Don

    Before I'm corrected, EXCALIBUR!
    
    							D

    re:.21
    
    Different strokes for different folks I guess. I was rather bored
    by THE LATHE OF HEAVEN. As far as I know, it's only been shown
    twice.
    
    I wouldn't say that ENEMY MINE "stole some of its plot" from ROBIN-
    SON CRUSOE ON MARS. The main idea in EM was in having two die-hard
    enemies needing to put aside their hostilities in order to survive.
    In RCoM, there was no such problem between "Crusoe" (I forget the
    character's actual name) and Friday.
    

    re:.23
    
    As far as I know, there is only one version of INVADERS FROM MARS,
    and it is indeed in color. Originally, it was intended to be a 3-D
    film, but when they decided not to do it in 3-D, they decided to
    film it in color. Color was not the norm for a relatively minor
    film like that.
    	You may be interested (or horrified) to know that there is a
    remake of IfM in the works. Directed by Tobe Hooper (LIFEFORCE,
    POLTERGEIST, 'SALEM'S LOT, TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE).
    
    re:.24
    
    I was all that fond of SOYLENT GREEN. I didn't dislike it enough
    to feel that my time and money were wasted when I saw it, but I
    haven't had any desire to see it again since.
    
    And while I thought the first PLANET OF THE APES flick was quite
    good, I'm not sure that I'd be willing to call it a "classic".
    
    The "B" movie you're thinking of is, as Don (.26) said, QUEEN OF
    BLOOD (aka PLANET OF BLOOD). It's a mid-60's film from American
    International, in which they (as in other films) cannibalized lots
    of scenes from foreign (usually Russian or Czech) films and made
    their own. I thought it was rather suspenseful, myself, despite
    the triteness of the "Ten Little Indians" plot. Basil Rathbone was
    another name actor in it. There was also a brief appearance by
    Forry Ackerman, the infamous editor of FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND.
    
    re:.26
    
    Of course, FIRE MAIDENS FROM OUTER SPACE had catchy music because
    it was well-known classical music. The one I remember most is
    "Strangers in Paradise".
    
    --- jerry

    RE -1
    
    The only one I can think of from ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS was Adam
    West.  But he was the stranded spaceman's partner who died in the
    in the crash in the beginning of the movie.  One of the few roles
    he's done since "Batman".
          
    Also:
    WAR OF THE WORLDS and THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL are two great
    classics with special effects that really got me hooked on sci-fi.
                 
    Wait a sec, I just remembered another great classic I don't remember
    being mentioned.....THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN.  This movie has
    got to be one of my all time favorites.
    
    Mike L
    

Lots of good movies got mentioned here.  I liked two
recent films which haven't been mentioned yet.


	Brainstorm

This is the film Natalie Wood was making when she died.  I
think the film got sort of messed up because of her death
but the first time I saw it was great.  The lab scenes were
some of the most realistic I've ever seen.  (of course the
movie did have its fair share of corny stuff too.)

The "death recording" was excellently done and is in agreement
with current scientific knowledge of what a person sees when they
die.  The movie dealt with other topics which often get covered
in SF fiction, but not the movies, including a person who becomes
a 'wire-head'.  I.E. sombody who has rigged it so that his
body experiences continuous orgasms.


	Brazil

This movie just came out several months ago.  Its sort of a mix
of 1984, Monthy Python and who knows what.  It is definitely SF
like you've never seen before!  I won't spoil it by saying that
you will never feel the same about: exposed ductwork, plastic
surgury, and grey suits.

re 28: 


      >	As far as Planet of the Apes (the 1st) being a "classic", I 
	don't know what qualifies a SF movie as a classic (maybe some 
	discussion on this?) but I look at it this way:

	Like PoTA, a Sci-fi film that has:
    
	* spurred several (3/4?) fairly good & fairly successful sequels, 
	* gained enough popularity to become so well known ( most movie 
	  goers have at least *heard* of it, most SFers have seen it), 
	* is seen in rerun over and over again, 
	* because of the movie - sold quite "a few" paperbacks, and spawned 
	  other commercial successes (trading cards, cartoons, etc),
	  (...well I know, but don't zap me on this last one,) 
    
    	is for all practicle purposes a "sci-fi" classic.
 
	Granted, PoTA might not be a great "movie" classic per say. I 
	think few, if any, SF films would classify in that regard. But 
	it was original, and it was *unique*, and as a sci-fi movie did 
	trigger a much larger reponse (just like War of the Worlds & Star 
	Wars) than most others....

	
      >	Enemy Mine vs. Robinson Crusoe on Mars: A case of Deja Vu?

	Maybe I should have said that EM shares several similar key 
	points with RCoM, rather than it "stole some of its plot".  
	
        But tell me if anyone else had the same feeling of "deja vu" 
	as I did.  When I first saw EM I kept saying "hmmm, I've seen 
	this somewhere before...".  The next week, RCoM was on the 
	tube and again "hmmm, didn't I just see that? Deja vu...".  
	I'm not saying they have *same* plot; hell no, there are many, 
	important differences.  But I did find there to be too many 
	similarities for me to accept as mere coinsidence.

	{{ SPOILER follows: Enemy Mine, Robinson Crusoe on Mars }}	


	Similarities:
	* Human pilot crash landing on an "uninhabitable" planet.
	* Sparse emergency supplies forces him to learn to survive 
	  off the land.		
	* Contact with marooned Alien who is "initially" hostile. In 
	  RC the Alien tries to kill the Human by sabatoging his air 
	  supply; neither really trusts the other.  In EM they're both 
	  enemies to begin with, try to kill, and sure as hell don't 
	  trust each other.
	* Both come to realize that to survive the hostile environment
	  they must overcome their hatred/fears and cooperate.	
	* Communication problem in both has the Human teach the Alien 
	  his language. 
	* Both eventually save each other's butt on various occasions
	  and eventually develope a friendship.
	* Alien also has the added problem of hiding from Slave Masters.
	  In RC, Human helps Alien escape from slavers, they are 
	  continually in hiding and on the run.  In EM, they discover 
	  slavers, go into hiding, Alien gets caught, Human has to help 
	  Alien escape slavers.
	* In the end, after rooming around the planet, good guys triumph, 
	  are saved and "go home".


	  |
	  ^	
	 / \
	 |M|
	 |I|
	 |K|
	/|E|\
	 ---
	 """
	  "

    re:.31
    
    I may concede your point about PotA being an sf "classic". Agreed
    that defining "classic" is not an easy thing to do.
    
    As for the similarities between ENEMY MINE and ROBINSON CRUSOE ON
    MARS: well, certainly there are similarites, but I still feel they
    were only superficial. After all, *any* tale of survival in a
    hostile environment is going to basicly entail the same details.
    I certainly have any feeling of deja vu when I saw ENEMY MINE.
    
    I still maintain that the thrust of the stories was different.
    In RCoM, the *survival* was the main point of the story, whereas
    in ENEMY MINE, the cooperation between enemies was the main point.
    And remember (if you already know) that ENEMY MINE was based on
    a short novel by Barry Longyear, and I doubt that he had RCoM in
    mind when he wrote it.
    
    --- jerry

                 <<< ESPN::$1$DUA4:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SF.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -<  Arcana Caelestia  >-
================================================================================
Note 319.33              Star Trek II;Close Encounters                  33 of 33
NATASH::HYATT                                        37 lines  10-APR-1986 09:37
                         -< What's a classic? (again) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    re 32:	On EM: Agreed.  BTW, what was the name of that novel by 
    		Longyear?  Then 'nuff on this one!
                      
    		On Classics: I got into a heated debate with my brother
    		over what qualifies a movie, or for that matter a novel
    		as a classic.                                
    
    	      * He takes the purist's stance and maintains that it MUST 
    		stand the "test of time", ie remain popular over serveral 
    		decades - across serveral "generations" of SF lovers, 
    		regardless of how popular it is initially.
    	      * I say that's not necessarily so, although that would 
    		ceratinly be one way. As in my reply (.31), I argued that 
    		if it creates a such important impact on a single generation,
    		ie becomes widely known, and captures the interest of the
    		general public, spurs sequels and imitators, and really 
    		boosts the SF industry, then it should also qualify.
    
    		Under his stance, movies like Star Wars, and Planet of
    		the Apes don't qualify, as do War of the Worlds, and
    		Wizard of OZ.  I would consider all classics. 
    	
    		For novels, its a little more difficult. I think I would
    		tend to lean towards his view more than my own. Because
    		novels tend to have less of a general public effect
    		than do movies. Although I would consider Dune and most 
    		likey Nine Princes in Amber both classics, he'll conceed 
    		on Dune, (with minor reservations) but not Princes.
    
    		I'd like to hear other thoughts on this, purists and
    		nonpurists alike...
    
    		|M|I|K|E|>--
    		///////                    
                o=o=o=o                 
                

    re:.33
    
    I sort of waffle on defining "classic".
    
    The Longyear short novel (actually, novelette is more like it) is
    titled "Enemy Mine" (surprise!) and it first appeared in ISAAC
    ASIMOV'S SF MAGAZINE, September 1979. I'm pretty sure (without having
    a reference at hand to check) that it is included in his collection
    MANIFEST DESTINY. I'm not sure if the book is still in print, though.
    If I recall correctly, the story won both the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
    
    Longyear also co-wrote (with David Gerrold) the novelization of
    the film.

    --- jerry

    Jerry's correct -- "Enemy Mine" won both Hugo and Nebula that year.
    
    I can remember geting that issue of IASFM (the second or third one
    I owned) and thinking, "Hey, what a neat story.  Kind of like those
    old movies about American and Japanese soldiers during WW II."
    
    Dave W.

    re .31
    
    Wasn't there a Battlestar Galatica episode where Starbuck and a
    Cylon were stranded on some planet together and became friends?
    
    A popular theme
    
    David.

RE: -1

That episode was one where Starbuck was stranded and he and 'Red Eye' had at it
at the 'Shoot out a Hokey Corral'.

Dan

    re:.37 re:.36
    
    There's a mix-up here. The "Red Eye" episode was one of the early
    BG episodes, and it was Apollo, not Starbuck. The Starbuck one
    referred to was probably the only decent episode of the sequel
    series, GALACTICA: 1980. Starbuck nicknamed his "pet" Cylon "Cy".
    
    --- jerry (who blushes to disclose that he actually enjoyed watching
    		BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and even has all of them on tape)

       Aha!  A fellow closet Battlestar Galactica fan!
    
       I love to see them in reruns.  I missed *many* episodes due to
    competing school activities.
    
    tlh
    

    Felgercarb! (sp.; I don't speak no Galactica.)
    
    All that technology.  Wasted.  
    
    I faithfully watched it each week.  Hoping.
    
    Some episodes were good.  Like when the Pegasus showed up. 
    
    What bothers me is it could have been really *good*.   
    
    (All this from someone who stuck to The Starlost to the very end.)
                                                           
    					   By your command.
    							Don

I thought the Starlost was great too!  Of course that was a while ago, a lot of
the details have been fuzzed out, and I don't know how it would hold up to me
now.  Does anyone know where you can get tapes or anything of this? 

Jim. 

        I agree about Battlestar Galactica (the most literal
        implementation I've ever seen in novels, movie, or TV of
        the old saw "wagontrain in space")... it looked like it had
        lots of potential.  Hell, I bought my first TV specifically
        to watch it (it started Fall '78, a few months after I got
        out of college and joined DEC)!
        
        I even kept a log book (which I probably still have) with
        synopses of the episodes (I don't remember if I got them
        all).
                   
        The only really major SF flaw was that they couldn't seem
        to make up their minds whether "centon" was a unit of time
        or space. :-)  Of course, if we're going to get into dramatic
        flaws, the list is a bit longer...
        
        Unfortunately, it didn't come close to living up to the
        potential.  Sigh... I guess I was just hoping so hard for a good
        SF show on TV that it was hard to convince myself it hadn't
        happened... 
        
        	/dave

    re .41
    
    Lest the deluge begins (or before it does), let me say that The
    Starlost wasn't a shining example of TV SF. 
    
    I watched it because it was billed that way.  Before I begin repeating
    myself, The Starlost was discussed elsewhere.
                                                   
    							Don
    
    P.S.  Oh Yes.  Went to the Grafton-Upton Flea this weekend.   Ran
          across a pile of those oversize Marvel "comics", chiefly ~
          10 copies of Battlestar Galactica.  They may return this
          weekend, weather permitting, under the trees.