Conference noted::sf

	Actually, as Sprague Decamp mentioned, ideas are the least of the
problem for professional writers; it's the character development, plot
development, and the like.  _Asimov On Science Fiction_ speaks to this
issue, too.  Story ideas can be as straightforward (at the time) as
Clarke's _Prelude To Space_ to as complex as _the World/Players of Null-A_
to as absurd (but superbly executed" as the Bradbury short whose title
eludes me at the moment about the woman who gave birth to a small blue
pyramid.  An innovator like Vance might come up with a new thought (See
"The DRagon Masters" for one nice example), but even as straightforward
a story as Campbell's "The Moon Is Hell," good for its time, but hardly
innovative, all require what for want of a better term I'll call literary
discipline to transmorgify to manuscript form.
	If they are really good ideas, you ought to try your hand at becoming
a writer.  It takes a lot of hard work, but it's quite satisfying.

SK

I prefer Spider Robinson's comment (I forget exactly where it was) in which
he responded to a person who made exactly that offer: ie, the person
supplies the ideas, and Spider writes the story, and the two of them split
the money.  Spider made the person a counter-offer: Spider would pick out 
heavy-weight boxers, and the guy would box them, and Spider and the guy
would split the profits.  For some reason, Spider thought these two ideas
were equivalent.

I DIDN'T SAY THAT I WANTED ANYONE TO WRITE A BOOK FOR ME!! JUST TO HELP...

	I think the point isn't whether one is "helping" or doing all the
writing.  The points are that 1) ideas are easy to come by; the tough
part is making them credible (e.g., the Bradbury story I cited in .1);
2) writing skill comes from practice.  I got the "writing bug" when a
sophomore in high school and sold my first story after I graduated
cllege.  In the mwantime, I collected many dozens of rejection slips
from all the magazines in the field at the time, and cranked out a 
manuscript every few weeks.  In his _Danse Macabre_, King points out 
that you have to have talent to become a successful writer, but that that
talent is like a knife: to become effective, you've got to hone it a bit.
	If you believe you have good, salable ideas, why not start with
short stories: they're both easier and more difficult.  Easier in that 
one can do an idea more compactly, reuiring less character development
(a Silverlock isn't going to change character in 15,000 words), and the
market, though sparse, reacts orders of magnitud more rapidly than book
publishers.  they're more difficult in that you have to write tightly
and to the point (to put it crudely, it's hard to pad a short story
successfully where it's relatively easy to do so in a novel).
	Please understand: those of us who responded are _not_ knocking
your intent; frankly, I have more ideas already than I'm able to use
in the near future in my own stuff: the last thing I need worry about
is running out of them.  What we're saying is that if you truly have
good ideas, it's better to develop your own writing skills.
	Let me give you a quick illustration.  Here's a basic story:

	A person has very fixed ideas.  Wants individual freedom in
a situation that dictates such a condition to be virtually unob-
tainable in the long run.  A person in authority uses psychological
pressure to, in effect, brainwash the person so that the desired
mind-set is achieved.

	There's the idea.  There are two literary examples of it that 
millions know of.

	One, almost instantly obvious to the F crowd, is _1984_.
	The other is a play, _The Taming of the Shrew_ by one W. Shakespeare.

	The basic premise for the two is the same; however, one's a horror
story, the other a comedy.  It's what you do with an idea once you get
it that makes the difference.
	And, among other things, that takes writing skills.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

	Is there any good info out there as to how one would go about
getting a short published ? How to approach publishers, how long or
short should a piece be, do certain publishers have preferences in
length, subject matter, etc.

((mike))

Well, there's various books on the subject (Ben Bova has a good one out,
the name of which temporarily escapes me) -- I'll dig it out once I get
home and post it here.

Alternatively, most SF magazines (with the possible exception of OMNI) will
send you a set of "Guidelines for Writers" which list their standards and
expectations.

Also, check out your local Science Fiction Conventions -- there's usually a 
"writers workshop" there, plus a chance to meet authors/editors and chat
informally.

THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO WRITE SOMETHING AND SUBMIT IT FOR PUBLICATION. 
It will be rejected at first, but writing is a skill which you can only
improve by DOING!!!

Nigel

Also, check out some of the semi-pro fanzines such as LOCUS or Science
Fiction Chronicle; in the back, they often have lists of which publishers
and magazines are in the market for which stories, and will give guideline
lengths also.

Nigel

Bova's book is something on the order of _Notes to a Science Fiction
Writer_.  Equally as good is L. Sprague de Camp's _Science Fiction Handbook_,
originally printed in the 1950s and updated to reflect change in style, mar-
ket, etc.

A HIGHLY IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION IS TO READ A LOT.  That sounds silly; but
actually, the more you are exposed to successful fiction, the more your
subconscious picks up.

On the deal of writing, several points:

	Format:  Double-spaced typewritten (or equivalent) pages, wide margins.
	         the best manuscripts start in the middle to give an editor
		  room to make notes on a story purchased.  Letters should be
		  clean (i.e., if you use matrix printers, don't use one with
		  a coarse font or hard-to-read character.

	Cover:	  A cover letter should be short and to the point, saying
	         something like "I'm sending you the enclosed manuscript
		  for your consideration."  Don't go into great details about
		  the story (it should stand on its own merit) or metion
	 	  that the story represents your first effort.

		  Include a return-addressed envelope with sufficient postae.

	Rejection:  If you get a form rejection slip, don't be surprised.  A 
		  letter is rare, and means it's close to good enough.  IG A 
		  LETTER FROM AN EDITOR SUGGESTS CHANGES, >>>MAKE THEM<<<!

Best of luck.  Do it enough and really want to write, and you should get
published.

Go for it!

Steve Kallis, Jr.

re:.4

Another example of two different approaches to the same basic idea (originally
broached in the form of a film trivia question):

Teri Garr acted in what sf/fantasy film as the disbelieving wife of a man who
has been driven to doing some rather odd things from having witnessed an event
beyond a normal person's experience?

The answer is:

Either CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE 3RD KIND or OH, GOD! Clearly two vastly
different stories, yet, the question describes a common idea.


BTW, in case anyone is interested, M. Kallis has published three short stories
in ANALOG:

"The Untouchable" (Dec 1960), "Hands Full of Space" (Jul 1965), and
"Murphy" (Apr 1983).

Plus two guest editorials:

"Defining the Limits" (Mar 1979) and "Who Is Killing the Space Program?"
(2 Mar 1981).

Plus two articles:

"Minicomputers" (May 1973) & "'Intelligent' Planetary Probes" (Aug 1983).


--- jerry

We must be a literate crew at DEC; I know of a couple of other people who've
gotten some things published recently. So it is possible!

For a short time I subscribed to "Writer's Digest", which is another source
for helpful hints about how to write and (possibly more important) how to
get published. It includes lists of magazines and their requirements for
articles, columns on how to do everything from hyphenate correctly to buy
a word processor, and many, many ads for additional reference works about
writing.

(Side note: one of the things I enjoyed most about the magazine was the
different viewpoint it gave on the writing profession. It's a lot of fun
to subscribe to random trade magazines for a while, even if you have no
interest in the profession under discussion - it gives you a very entertaining
view of the world from someone else's perspective.)

Favorite quote about writing (which I will proceed to misquote): In one of
Dorothy Sayers' "Lord Peter" novels - or was it a short story? - Lord Peter
was going on about people who keep saying, "One of these days I must sit
down and write my memoirs," and so on. He said, "I gather that sitting down
is all that is required to produce a masterpiece."

-b

	_Writer's Digest_ is okay for someone entering into the field, but
an annual (hardcover) publication of theirs, _Writer's Markets_ is more
useful, in some respects.  It defines markets and has sections where
editors explain their magazines and audiences.  This gives a beginnine
writer (and a professional in one field can be a beginner in another:
Isaac Asimov was virtually "immortal" in SF when he branched out into
mysteries.  His first novel was ... well, okay [sorry I couldn't be more
poaitive, but Isaac agrees with the evaluation), but his Black Widower
tales are quite delightful.  Somewhere in his estate, the late Doc
Smith had a manuscript he never showed me that was about a hard-boiled
detective and his secretary.  The line he quoted to me from it was,
"Stick with me, baby, and you'll have tiaras on your boom-de-ay," which
has less meaning now than when Doc wrote it.  He tried to sell it for
more than a decade before setting it aside) an idea what editorial
preferences are -- and hence, how it becomes easier to make a sale.  {Look 
at _Analogs_ during the mid-1960s, and you may notice that a number of
editorials by John Campbell appeared as stories some months down the pike.
That was a sure-fire way to sell to him during that time period -- as long 
as you could write, that is.}
	One thing about advice: listen to it with an open mind, but don't 
follow it slavishly.  Many things work well if used sparingly, but easily
can get out of hand.  An example might be the four-way sentence, sometimes
used to open a story.  For instance,

	"Jonas Morse sank wearily into the hotel chair, reflecting on the
injustice of being a traveling salesman while having the soul of a poet."

	The one sentence compresses a lot of information about Morse: he's 
tired, in a hotel, and [because a traveling salesman] probably away from
home, what his profession is, and that he doesn't particularly care for
his job.  This is a good gimmick.  But suppose the writer made _every_
sentence a four-way?  You'd drive the reader crazy.  
	The moral: learning tricks is no substitute for practicing technique.
read the books, learn fundamentals however you can.
	Also, don't expect objective criticism from friends and family: they
might not wish to hurt your feelings; or if not that, they still can't judge
your work objectively (as a rule: there may be exceptions).  And don't expect
detailed critiques from editors who have to wade through piles of slush (if
a magazine has an off month and you ask rhetorically, "He bought _that_ 
story?" imagine what the poor soul had to reject!): that's why the form
rejection slip.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

 	
	Thanks guys, very helpful indeed ! From your experiences are
	there any magazines or publishers who stand out as being more
	receptive to "unknowns" ?  Or for that matter, just the opp-
	osite; are there those who tend to publish only from "proven"
	writers ?

	((mike))

re:.-1

In the sf/fantasy field, we are blessed with a rather large "small press"
arena, magazines with restricted distribution and/or pay relatively little
(oftentimes nothing but n copies of the magazine).

Obviously, there are disadvantages to this, but there are also advantages.
It's a place where you can get both practice and feedback. Many professional
writers started out writing for small press magazines.

Examples of this sort of magazine: ELDRITCH TALES, FANTASY MACABRE, OWLFLIGHT,
	PANDORA, SPACE & TIME, ARGONAUT, THE HORROR SHOW, and POTBOILER.

There are others of this sort that pay fairly well, but generally publish
only "seasoned" authors. Examples: WHISPERS, FANTASY BOOK, FANTASY TALES,
	WEIRDBOOK, and INTERZONE.

There are a few market reports that specialize in the sf/fantasy small press.
There's an annual publication called OTHERGATES and a more frequent one
called SCAVENGER'S NEWSLETTER. I can dig up more info on these if you'd like.


Another thing to try might be to get a small group (say, around a half-dozen)
of like-minded people together as a "writers group", to help each other
critique your efforts. There's such a group in Minneapolis that has had 100%
success. After just a few short years, all seven members have sold fiction.
Pat Wrede, Steven Brust, Will Shetterly, and Pamela Dean all have novels in
print and others sold. Emma Bull has a short story published and a novel sold.
Nate Bucklin has a short story that'll be published sometime this month. And
Kara Dalkey has sold a novel. In addition, all but one will be represented in
a "shared world" anthology (like the Thieve's World books) due out in a month
or so. This is an unusual state of affairs, granted, but what worked for them
could work for you, too.


--- jerry

Re .11 - I guess we have to give Kallis the "parenthetical expression
of the month" award!

-b

	Well (I really should have started it differently, but what the H.?
There really i nothing too wrong with parantheses, if not taken to excess.
Anything taken to excess can be a bit wearing, viz:
	(In _Les Miserables_, Victor Hugo has a *sentence* that goes on for
something like 2.5 pages.  One would have a bit of difficulty keeping 
trach of the main verb in something that's that kind of a
monstrosity.  Paenthetical comments, on the other hand, are easier to
cope with, since one can add several sentences within their complementary
concavities.
	(There are several forms of punctuation that lend themselves to
such operations; parantheses being unique in that they're nestable.  
While quotation marks also are >> somewhat<< similar, there are enough
variants among parentheses [including brackets of various shapes]
to minimize the confusion.
	(But enough!  I really am sympathetic to the opinion expressed in
.14, and guess), I deserved that: it was certainly legitimate criticism;
I'll try to be better about it in the future.

Steve Kallis, Jr

Article        33966
From: SCHUYTEM@STEFFI.ACC.UNCG.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: A new SF list!
Date: 31 Jul 91 17:07:00 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The Internet
 
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