Conference noted::sf

	I'm not sure, but in the movie version did Scotty ever explain that
the engineering recruit (Peter Preston ?) was his nephew ? I don't recall
seeing it other than in last nights T.V. version.
	Also, both he and Scotty seemed to have a few more lines than I
remembered. 
	What was the change to the elevator sceene between K & S ?

	Indeed ABC did add some footage to TWOK. They did a similar
	thing to the first movie 2 years ago. They added so much
	film, that it took 3 hours to show it! The additions to
	last nights film weren't that noticable. I guess ABC needed
	some film to round out the movie to a full 2 1/2 hours.
	That's commercial tv for you.

Glad this came "issue" came up.  I thought I was seeing things!

I did notice a couple of things that I didn't remember from my
previous viewings.

	1) In sickbay, Kirk, Scott, Preston, and McCoy, I only remember
	    Kirk coming in giving the word and leaving.  Not Scott's
	    explanation nor McCoy and Kirk's conversation right after.

	2) After beaming back up from the planet and being informed, by
	    Spock that not much above C deck was working, Kirk, Sav, and
	    Spock were entering a hatch-way and Kirk says:

		"That young man's my son."  To which Spock says:

		"Ohh. Really."

 D
C
 A

  CYGNUS""::ARVIDSON

Argh! I didn't bother watching TWOK on TV, since I have it on Beta Hi-Fi
tape already, and TV GUIDE didn't say *anything* about scenes being added,
like they did with the first movie (or the first two SUPERMAN movies, for
that matter). If I'd known that they added scenes, I would have taped it.

BTW, in case people are wondering, the version of the first movie that is
available on tape is the longer, TV version. The added scenes improved it.

--- jerry

In response to an earlier question, the elevator scene with Saavik and Kirk thatI was talking about; the scene had the same lines but appeared to be a different"take".  The original scene was showing both characters from a distance, the re-
edited version bounced from face to face and there was much more hinting at
intimate feelings between them .  I thought the whole issue of Saavik loves
Kirk or vice versa was not well done even in the original .  Perhaps it was
a sub-plot that never made it ?

Some of the other changes I noticed were during the "inspection" by Admiral
Kirk, the feisty young engineers mate had some lines, and Scotty had the
opportunity to finally explain why he felt so strongly about the kid, "My
sister's youngest." I believe was his revealing remark .

There were some additional lines when Ms. Marcus was talking with the freshly
brainwashed Checkov .  These lines added some more depth to that entire scene.

The last major change that I noticed was, again, like the elevator scene, a 
change in camera perspective with the addition of a few lines .  This was when
Ms. Marcus and her scientific team were holding their council of war after
Reliant gave them the ultimatum .

Other than about four other little snippets of extra footage such as showing
people entering the bridge and a few extra scenes of facial reactions that 
ammounted to perhaps a minute of time total, those were the changes that
I noticed .  I taped the movie in order to get a better quality picture than
the dubbed (or pirated) copy I had previously, I was quite pleasantly 
surprised !

I have noticed that direct copying from cable yields better results than dubbing(even if you use the "video-in video-out" method, but perhaps that belongs in
another notes file .

I managed to grab a dubbed copy of "In Search of Spock" over the week-end, The
new version of Khan goes better with it than the old .

		Jon (DRUID::)Kardell

re:.5

The camera movement "from face to face" in the elevator scene has nothing
to do with it being a new take. It is the result of "panning" the scene
when converting the film to video transmission. Because the screen image
ratio (or "aspect") of a movie screen is much greater than a tv screen, a
fair amount of the original image can get lost when broadcast on tv. With
most films, the side action just gets cropped. However, with some films,
especially those filmed in panavision, there are a few alternative ways to
compensate.
	One is to shrink the image so that the entire horizontal image
gets on the screen, with blank (black) sections above and below the image
(Woody Allen's MANHATTAN was broadcast this way, at least on Preview). This
method is rarely used.
	The second method is to compress the image horizontally to get
everything into a tv frame. This, however, has the negative effect of a
funhouse mirror, and makes everyone look tall and thin. This method is
generally used only during opening and closing credits, to make sure that
all the credits get on the screen (if you buy or rent a copy of BUCKAROO
BANZAI, you'll see this process in action).
	The most common method is "panning", or moving the image so that
the most important part of a particular scene is in the middle. In scenes
like the "elevator sequence" in TWOK, in which the two characters are
basicly at opposite sides of the screen, the video image is moved from
one character to the other depending upon who's talking.

	As for implications of romantic feelings between Kirk and Saavik,
I think they are totally your own inference. It never occurred to me, nor
to anyone else I've ever talked to, nor is there anything to suggest it
in Vonda McIntyre's novelization of the film. McIntyre does include (in
both the TWOK and TSFS novelizations) scenes which make it clear that a
romance between Saavik and David develops, but nothing between Saavik and
Kirk. Considering Kirk's proclivities, it's not beyond belief that he has
the hots for Saavik (I can't imagine him not --- at least with the Kirstie
Alley version), but I'm sure that such would be purely sexual, not romantic.


--- jerry

   Gee, didn't anybody but my husband and I catch the extra lines right as 
they are about to into the Mutari Nebula?  Saavik wants to know how they
can be so sure that Khan will follow them into the nebula.  Spock says
"Remind me to explain the human ego to you sometime, Mr.Saavik."  (or words 
to that effect)

tlh

Regarding reply 6 about the elevator scene, I was not aware that the techniques you mentioned would allow a profile shot to be turned into a full face shot .
The lines were spoken much more softly as well, with more "pregnant" pauses
in between .  At any rate, this weekend I will do a replay with friends and 
we will see .

Regarding the Mutara Nebula - I had forgotten all about that, just as I had 
forgotten about the extra sick-bay lines for Scotty .  Good show TLH .

Jon

Regarding my inference of romantic feelings between Saavik and Kirk -
The reason I thought that was not just because of body language and
conversation between them, but also because when McCoy got into the
elevator and overheard the call coming in from Carol Marcus, he said
"never rains but it pours" .  He also mentioned Saavik's new hair
style to which kirk sourly responds "I had'nt noticed" .

But that is the nature of film, each to their own interpretations...

Jon

In re .3:

The lines in the hatchway were (as best I recall):

Kirk:  That young man's my son.

Spock:  Fascinating!

This was another of those little throwbacks from the TV series which made
"Star Trek II" so much fun for a reformed Trekkie like me.  I'm really 
sorry it was cut from the original release.

In re .5, .6, .8:

I have to agree with .5 and .8, and disagree with .6.  The elevator scene
between Kirk and Saavik is one of my favorites in the film.  I had the strong
impression that it was a different take on TV, for all the reasons
mentioned.  Alley's understanding of the young Romulan-Vulcan character she's
playing shows even more clearly in this take.

Panning was used to good effect in other scenes in the TV screening, though.

					  -  o
					 - -/-->
					-  @~\_

					Roger

"SAVE THE ENTERPRISE!" :-)

re:.10

You disagree with me, Roger?? How *could* you?!?! *sniff*

re:.8

OK, so I'm just talking out of my hat. I didn't see that televised version,
so I was only basing my comments on what you had said in response 5. You
didn't mention then that the head-to-head shots were "full face".

As for the romantic implications: I still don't see it. I mentioned this to
a closet-Trekkie friend, and she agrees with me that there is nothing to
suggest any romantic feelings of one for the other. She even brought up the
very bit you mentioned in .8 --- that Kirk seemed irritated at McCoy's comment
about Saavik's hair. She thought, and I agree, that Kirk was trying to head
off any thoughts on McCoy's part that there might have been anything "going
on" between Kirk and Saavik in the elevator (after all, if you'd been waiting
for a held-up elevator, and then saw Kirk and Saavik inside, with Saavik
hastening to get out, what would *you* think?). As I said before, it's not
unreasonable that Kirk might have the hots for Saavik, but I don't think that
he was feeling any romantic inclinations.
	As for Saavik, I think that what she felt for Kirk was awe. Kirk was
a legend in Star Fleet --- a goal that any command cadet could strive to match,
but would know in his heart that he could never match. In addition, she was
highly embarrassed about his witnessing her failure on the *Kobayashi Maru*
test, especially since he was the one cadet who ever beat the simulation. I
think the "hesitancy" you refer to in their conversation was because Saavik
was uncomfortable in Kirk's presence for the reasons mentioned above. And Kirk
may well have been uncomfortable because he noticed her discomfort (and, I
will admit that his remark about her hair may well have been because he noticed
that her looks were quite striking). I'm sure that she admired Kirk greatly,
but loved him? Nah, no way. 

--- jerry

     Another perfect example of several people with exactly the same informationcoming to different conclusions .
     First - regarding possible romance between S & K, I confess to being 
some what im-precise in using the word romance .  This word, to me, has many
shades of meaning, all the way from "the last of the red hots" to "sure, 
I'll respect you in the morning" .
     Second - regarding Kirk being uncomfortable about a cadet's discomfort .
Not likely in the extreme .  If you have ever been a teacher or in a command
position, the discomfort of your pupils or cadets is more of a source of
amusement then embarrasment .  This is not just my impression, more of a 
consensus among teachers .

     As I had mentioned in some previous reply, the possible "romantic" 
interaction of S & K may have been a sub plot that never "made it"
(that means "got developed properly"), thus, we may never know for sure
just what the author or director intended for us to imply .
     Lack of facts has never prevented me from having an opinion before,
why start now ?

Jon

	DIDNT ANY ONE READ THE BOOK? I KNOW THEY CAN BE A LET-DOWN SOMETIMES,
AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE, BUT 





THEY GIVE SOME GOOD INFO. TOO. FOR INSTANCE,
I REMEMBER IN THE BOOK SCOTT DEFINATELY EXPLAINS THE RELATION BETWEEN HIM 
AND THE CADET...
						JASON
						  C.
		                                        P.

re:.13

You're right, most often the novelization of a movie really bites the big
one. There are a few exceptions, and among those exceptions are Vonda
McIntyre's novelizations of THE WRATH OF KHAN and THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK.
If for nothing else, the novelization of TWOK is worth reading for the
wealth of material on Saavik's background.

Before anyone asks, other novelizations that I thought were quite readable
(and some were even better than the film, such as McIntyre's two) are:

THE BLACK HOLE by Alan Dean Foster (Better written than most of his
	novelizations, and he tosses in a lot of nice material that
	wasn't in the movie. And his ending makes more sense than the
	one in the movie. All of Foster's other novelizations are trash,
	though.)

BUCKAROO BANZAI by Earl Mac Rauch (I couldn't recommend this more
	highly if I'd written it myself. It's not quite a novelization,
	since Mac Rauch wrote it concurrently with the movie script,
	but it's marketed as a novelization. And it's GREAT! Much better
	than the film, which I already think is wonderful, anyways).

DRAGONSLAYER by Wayland Drew (Lester del Rey mentioned that if he'd
	gotten this novel on his desk without it being a tie-in to a
	movie, he would've bought it at a moment's notice.)

FANTASTIC VOYAGE by Isaac Asimov (Forgot that this was a novelization,
	didn't you? This is probably the only movie novelization other
	than the STAR TREK and STAR WARS ones that has been constantly
	kept in print.)

STAR TREK---THE MOTION PICTURE by Gene Roddenberry (Supposedly, it
	actually *was* written by GR. I thought this was quite readable,
	but then, I liked the movie, too.)

2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY by Arthur C. Clarke (Like BUCKAROO BANZAI, this
	isn't really a novelization, but was written concurrently with
	the movie. It was essentially marketed as one, though.)


--- jerry

re:.14

In general, I find Alan dean Foster's novelizations very good. Reading 
ALIEN cleared up a few questions I had about the movie.

MartyJ

re:.15

True, his novelizations do tend to include much more background information
than the movies they're based on. However, I was talking about them from a
pure quality of writing point of view. His regular novels are reasonably
well written (not outstanding, but fairly good), but most of the novelizations
of this that I've read (*especially* ALIEN) read like they were written in
an afternoon.

Oh, I just though of one more novelization (and its an Alan Dean Foster one,
too) that's very good, and that's THE THING. The movie was more gross than
horrifying, but the book is scary as hell.

--- jerry

     Although there is no definite evidence of romance between Kirk and
Saavik, I believe one scene cut from both the movie and television versions
showed Saavik in the Enterprise morgue with her dead teacher, Spock and
her dead lover, Peter Preston.  I do not know if this scene is in the 
novelization.  Can someone confirm this for me?

      -- Andy

In the novel, she acted as a special tutor for Peter, and he may have had
a crush on her, but I don't recall that they were lovers. I do remember
the scene you mention, in which she sits in vigil over Spock's body (the
reason has something to do with her background), but I don't remember if
Peter's body was there also.

In the novelization of THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, there is definitely a love
scene between Saavik and David. A rather silly one at that.

--- jerry

Saavik and Peter Preston are definitely not lovers.  She considers him a
cute child.

In the "Star Trek III" novelization, Saavik keeps vigil over the bodies of
both Spock and Peter.  The point is made that she has lost both her teacher
and her pupil.  Sniff!

I thought the "love scene" between Saavik and David was rather cute, Jerry.
Picture Kirk's expression as he comes upon his son and Saavik on the way to
her cabin!  We also find out that Romulan women are insatiable.  Hmmm.... :-)

					  -  o
					 - -/-->
					-  @~\_

					Roger