Conference noted::sf

		Excellent suggestion. Below is a FANTASY chart(NOT SF)

	these are in no particular order---
	
			1. The EARTHSEA TRILOGY-Ursula K. LeGuin
		Kind of a juvie, but the last one is a heart wrender.
	Don't think you are too old for it.

			2.The ELRIC SAGA-Michael Moorcock

		Kind of weird, but the last one is a beauty. Man, do
	I ever LOVE MM's characterizations!

			3.THOMAS COVENANT THE UNBELIEVER-Stephen R. Dnaldsen
		Another wierdo, CAUTION: do not read the second series.

			4.DUNE-Frank Herbert

		READ IT!!!!!! My god, is this ever good READ IT!!!!!!

			5.DOUBLE EXPOSURE- Piers Anthony
		Much better than the Xanth trash-also ON A PALE HORSE

			6.The DRAGONRIDERS SERIES-Anne "Dragon" Mcaffery

		Yummy, kinda hard to get into,majestic,lazy,and yes it is
	very good

			7.CONAN-Robert E. Howard
		RH's death was our loss. If you know what it is like,
		you don't need a reccomendation, you already hate it
		or love it. If you don't, read it and see.

			8.BORED OF THE RINGS-Harvard Lampoon
		Hard to find, but by far the best parody ever created
		of a good book.
		
			9.I dunno...

			10 I got it!!! A DOUBLE recomendation for
		DUNE-all I can say is WOW!!!!!

	I'm freaked out,misspelling wors and writing like Donaldsen.
	9th grade is getting to me.....

					sam

Are you SURE your only 13 Sam???  :-)

	It's late at night so I'll only recommend a trilogy that I
	particularly enjoy every time I read it.

		Inherit the Stars, Gentle Giants of Ganymede, and
		Giants Star.  All by James P. Hogan. (Former employee of DEC)


	If you really want to get into a LENGTHLY book (1100 pages!) then 
	I'll let you know how Battlefield Earth turns out.  So far so good.


						Enjoy!

							mike
	P.S. More later. After I get some sleep!

Caveat:  I'm not sure which of these books are still in print (after all
I already own them...).  They all do keep getting reprinted though plus
the library might have them.

1.  Poul Anderson - Ensign Flandry
    A young man in a far future Terran Empire gets caught up in Galactic
    Intrigue (da dum!).  Good fun.  Anderson knows his science.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next two books are "juveniles".  I still enjoy reading them and
regard them as better than this author's "adult" works.

2.  Robert Heinlein - Citizen of the Galaxy
    Sold on the auction block, Thorby finds that his new owner is more than
    he first appeared.  Heinlein shows 4 solidly developed societies.

3.  Robert Heinlein - Time for the Stars
    A look at a relativistic space program.  Gives a good overview of the
    concept plus some nice character insights.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.  Arthur C. Clarke - The City and the Stars
    A billion years from now, the citizens of Earth's last city, Diaspar,
    live for pleasure and never think of the past.  Except for Alvin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people never read short stories.  "Illogical"

5.  Larry Niven - Tales of Known Space
    Covers several centuries, from relativistic space flight through
    faster than light travel.  Entertaining and very solid science.
    (well, not the faster than light travel...) (as far as I know!)

6.  Isaac Asimov - Foundation
    First (and as far as I'm concerned, best) of a four-book series.
    A scientist predicts the end of the Galactic Empire and uses
    "psychohistory" to found a society to eventually build a new civilization.

7.  (?) Saberhagen - Beserker
    There are a few collections of Beserker stories.  Long, long ago (!) two
    races fought.  One of them created huge (40 mile diameter) robotic
    spaceships with one mission:  To destroy life.  The races are gone but
    the Beserkers aren't.  Despite the concept, these are very much stories
    about people and reactions to stress.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.  E. E. Smith - Skylark of Space
    A scientist invents a new energy source; the bad guys steal it and his
    fiance.  The writing style is primitive but it can't be beat for
    spectacular villainy and futuristic battles.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9.  Frank Herbert - Dune
    In the far future, different facets of society vie for supremacy.  A young
    boy is forced into adulthood by circumstances and his own special abilities
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Wilson Tucker - Wild Talent
    Suppose a boy were born with telepathy.  And suppose the government found
    out that he existed but didn't know who he was.  Set before WWII.  Good
    solid extrapolation:  Take one idea, and What If.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see that the further this got, the longer my descriptions got.  This is
*your fault*.  You shouldn't get me *started* this way. :-)  Oh well, I hope
you enjoy some of these.

					John

     Before things get too carried away...   There are already several
such lists sprinkled throughout this notes file (they might even have
headers that tell you what they are before reading the first note!).
I suggest you read them first, then if you need any more suggestions,
ask again.  It gets kinda tedious seeing the same suggestions that
we've already seen on previous notes files.  (Not that I don't like
the suggestions, I do!  But enough is enough guys!)

     Kevin McCarthy

WRONGO.

You guys are recommending some really good books for diehards,
BUT NOT GOOD BOOKS FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER READ SF BEFORE.

While DUNE, FOUNDATION TRILOGY, LENSMAN SERIES, etc. may be real
good (I have read some of these over 5 times), I would hardly
recommend these to a newcomer.

Also, he asked for SF, not fantasy (although he probably doesn't
know the difference), so he should not read the books listed in .1.
They are Fantasy.

Moon is a Harsh Mistress - yes.

Almost all books have their strong supporters and their avid haters.
For example, the Lord of the Rings.
Moon is a Harsh Mistress is almost universally liked.

Please try to suggest a few more books that are literally guaranteed
to be enjoyed by a novice.

(or come see me)

I would second City and the Stars and Citizen of the Galaxy.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I agree with Stan,... I read some SF when
I was in high school (the crap that they force on you in English class...
I hated every minute of it... That's why I'm asking for stuff that people
tell me a novice would like (instead of what is a clasic - Long, boring and
totally confusing).

Some of this stuff looks interesting... I'll let this go a few more days
then most likely head off to the library and see what I can find.

Steve

I would have no hesitation in recommending the Foundation series to a 
novice. I would also throw in almost any collection of Dr. Asimov's short 
stories. That is how I got started.

I did not particularly like "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and I feel that 
the poor style could deter a neophyte. However I am well aware that I am in 
a minority. So read it, but if you do not like it don't let it put you off 
the genre.

Tim

I would agree. Of the suggestions already made, I would second the
FOUNDATION TRILOGY, DUNE, and The Dragonriders of Pern series. I'd
also toss in, right off the top of my head, Heinlein's GLORY ROAD.

You see, I've had experience with this sort of thing. Ten years ago,
I started going out with a woman who *didn't like* sf --- she thought
it was all "cold and mechanical", so I gave her the above books, and
she found that she liked them. While she didn't become a "fan", she
read mostly sf over the next couple of years (I didn't keep in touch
with her after we broke up, but I assume that she's still reading the
stuff).

	I'll try to think of more stuff later.

--- jerry

  I agree with Stan that some of these suggestions are not appropriate for
a newcomer.  In particular, the Foundation Trilogy is one of my favorite 
Sf works but since It took at least 3 tries for me to get past the first 50
pages even after I'd been reading Sf for years i'd say wait a little before
you read it.  Same with Dune.  I just reread Dune Sunday (took ALL day). It's
great i highly reccomend it but not for a first book.
   You might try some short stories first.  That way you can get the flavor
of authors whose longer works you might want to try.  Some short story col-
lections  that can't lose are the Hugo Winners collections by Asimov and 
The Science Fiction Hall of Fame collections by Silverberg(???).  These 
collections will give an idea of the varied themes, characters, paces, and
textures that you'll will run across in Sf and fantasy.  Also since, by your
own admission, You are a fairly slow reader, if you read one that you find is 
a waste of time, you won't have wasted a *lot* of time on it.  (My fiance' is 
an Sf reader that is not very fast and he prefers short stories to novels, 
partly for that very reason.  He also likes to read books that get going within
the first 50 pages or so.  He's never made it through Dune or Foundation 
because of this.  He constantly reminds me to narrow down my reccomendations 
since Reading a long novel is much greater investment of time for him than it 
for me.)
   Heinlien's "Juveniles" are great books to get started on.  They started me 
off when I was 11 or 12 and I still enjoy rereading them.
   Take a look at the note called "I'm bored" for more suggestions and the 
names of some of Heinlein's works.

tlh

I would reccommend The Mote In God's Eye by Larry Niven And Jerry Pournell.
The storyline is about the first contact with a (for once) truely Alien
culture.
 Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land is also quite good and witty. It's 
about a young man raised on Mars by Martians. Look at this society from
the outside.
			Good luck and happy reading
				Dave

What do you read normally (since we know it's not SF).  There are SF stories/
novels which are also mysteries, comedies, romances, "historical",
psychological, sociological etc.  Perhaps starting with one that is closer
to your tastes might be better.

								/alan

Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. It's about the metamorphosis of
Mankind. Very easy to read and still one of my favorites.

	.5 Yes I KNOW it is fantasy. I wrote that in the beggining,
		because I am one person who is a FANTASY addict and
		only a mild lukewarm halfhearted sfer. Some people
		find fantasy a little easier to get into.

	.8 No you are not a minority. I don't like MIAHM because of
		those reasons you listed.

	.2 AND FOR GOD SAKES, ONCE AND FOR ALL, YES, I AM THIRTEEN!!!
		(soon to be fourteen)
	
		and Elric says Hello.

					sam(the thirteen year old)

re: .14
	
	I DID put on a smiley face Sam.  I'll stop the "Are you sure.." stuff.

						mike

Re: .12

Up until now I've basically read technical books (ie: Knuth, Aho, Ullman,
and other boring stuff).

On the lighter side I've read quite a bit of Woody Allen, The Rise and 
Fall of the 3rd Riche (sp?), Some Sherlock Holmes (currently reading the
Collected works (about 50 pages in), The Code Breakers by Kahn and am
currently reading The KGB:  The Hidden Hand.  This along with quite a few
short books which I got my hands on.

Steve

As you can see it's time to try something lighter...

   Ahah!  A fellow Sherlock Holmes fan!  Well maybe I'll take something back.
Maybe you should start with Asimov's Foundation Trilogy.  It reads like a 
mystery.  (As a matter of fact Asimov has written some mysteries.)  I also 
think you would like "the moon is a harsh mistress" because of the plotting 
involved.  A lot of heinleins books are like that.

Forgive the lack of capitals, somewhere in the middle of this my hands just 
quit communicating with my brain.

tlh

I'll recommend The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester.  It's a
mystery/thriller kind of SF story, very fast paced, and really
gets off to a quick start.  I think it fills the bill for you,
Steve.

Don.

re: -2


	Oh No!  Not the dreaded pinky disease again! And It's spreading!
	I hope it's not catching!  :-)

	Now for something completly different,

	Some more suggestions:

	Starburst by Fredrick Pohl--I liked it.  It moved along pretty good.

	Voyage to the City of the Dead by ADF (Alan Dean Foster)--What can I say
	I like ADF.  If a new book of his comes out I'll most likely but it on 
	his name alone.  Yes he could have written some better books but on the 
	whole I like him.  The book was in the middle. Good but not among his 
	best.

	Icerigger and its sequel, Mission to Molikai (sp??) also by ADF
	I really liked these twosome.  I've read and re-read them many times.
	The story moves fast and the sequel was good.(Sequels are never as 
	good as as the original though.) Try it.

	I could go on about ADF (He's not my hero or anything.  I just like his 
	work. Even if some consider it "not-so-hot") but I won't.  Maybe I'll
	start a note dealing with just ADF?  Would anyone else like to see it?


							mike

Re: .16

Of the top of my head, I'd repeat the suggestion of James Hogan's
Inherit the Stars - A dead "astronaut" is found on the moon, but he's been
dead of 50,000 years.  Hogan know technology, and can keep the story moving.

								/alan

	Phoenix Prime, by Ted Knight - delightful story, a NYC cabdriver wakes
	up one day and discovers he has considerable psychokinetic power. Of
	course, there's twenty evil doers on Earth with the same power,
	determined to do him in...

	The Tar-Ayim Krang by Alan Dean Foster - fine juvenille adventure.

	Childhood's End - Arthur C. Clarke - like whiskey for a 13 year old,
	it makes you grow up faster. Very sad, thoughtprovoking book.

	I second "City and The Stars" (also once released as "Against the
	Fall of Night") by AC Clarke.

	"Farmer in the Sky" & "Star Beast" - RA Heinlein - terrific for young
	and old.

	"Moon of Three Rings" - Andrea Norton.

	"Doorways in the Sand" - Roger Zelazny - super, funny story.

			That ought to hold you for a while...

 I like the books of James Hogan, Roger Zelanzy, and Clifford Simak. Mr.
Hogan has a good technical slant (although I felt he pontificated a bit in
his latest book -the name fails me- ). Mr Zelanzy has written the only fantasy
(the amber series) that I have been able to read. Mr. Simak has some thought
provoking books (The City, The Pope Project, The Visitors).
 The way I find books is by hunt and peck. Sturgeon's Law definitely applies.
(For those that don't know it is: 98% of everything is crap.) Finding the
gems does make it worth it.

re .-2: The author of Phoenix Prime is _White_, not _Knight_.  I like Psi
stories -- this one, Blish's Jack Of Eagles, and Schmitz' Telzy Amberdon
stories are about the best ...

	/dave

Disclaimer:
Before people start random flaming, this is not in order of 
quality, but just as I think of them. Also I may get carried away
and give away a spoiler or three. Also apologies to all the authors
as one paragraph summations could never do any of these books
justice.

1 Ringworld - Larry Niven
 A Kzin (think of a tiger on its hind legs), a Puppeteer (a three legged
creature with two heads that look like Cecil the Sea sick Sea Serpent, which
just happens to be racially paranoid), a two hundred year old man and a VERY
lucky woman go off to explore a ring around a star 1 million miles in width and
93 million miles in radius. A classic piece of hard science fiction. 

2 The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Robert Heinlein
 The moon is being used as a penal colony much like Australia
was when it started. However the moon residents want freedom.
This is the story of the revolution as seen through the eyes of one
of its leaders. It is also a story of one of the his fellow revolutionaries
who just happens to be a computer. One of Heinleins best books.

3 What Mad Universe - Frederic Brown (? unsure of author, but I have it)
 An author of a science fiction pulp magazine gets thrown into an alternate
universe where the space drive was invented in 1901 by a professor
messing around with a sewing machine. One of the best spoofs of the science
fiction genre and its fandom.

4 Dune - Frank Herbert
  Arrakis (known to some as Dune) is the only planet that provides the 
melange spice. What is spice you ask? Only a drug that can let you help live
longer, see the future, and be immune to most poisons. only one problem with
it, which is that once you start you can't stop. Make that two problems,
the other being that you have to fight the environment of Arrakis to get it.
The Duke Leto Atreides has been forced by the emperor to give up his
comfortable (if not too profitable) planet for Arrakis. The planet
was last held by his families ancestral enemies the Harkonens.
With him the Duke takes his consort Jessica (trained by the bene gesserit,
who do things that make the Force look useless) and his son by her Paul.
This is a moderately long and complex novel, but well worth the read.

5 The Forever War - Joe Haldeman
  Earth gets itself in a war in space. The big problem is that
when a ship goes out it goes out at relativistic velocities.
by the time it gets to where its going many years have passed, and
you may find yourself fighting an enemy that is in essence from your
future. The author changes earth society in some interesting ways
while the hero is off fighting. A good tale with a good message.

6 A mission of Gravity - Hal Clement
Life and times on a planet with gravity many times that of
earth . It is also about our first contact with the residents of that
planet people. Yet another hard science fiction classic.

7 Childhood's End - Arthur C Clarke
Another first contact story, of sorts. Tells about what happens and what
has happened to the human race when another race tries to help us evolve
to the next level. 

8 Of Men And Monsters - William Tenn
What do men, rats, and cockroaches have in common. Yes, you guessed it,
we all make great household pests. This is William Tenn's only novel,
but his wonderful tongue-in-cheek style still comes through. It's really
too bad he hasn't written more. 

9 I Robot - Issac Asimov
 Several short to novella length stories covering the life and
times of a pioneer of robotics. The stories are usually of the problems
involved with developing and "field testing" a new robot. Some of the
problems are absolutely hilarious.

10 Gateway - Frederic Pohl
 Long ago there was a race called the Heechee. All we have left is
a few hundred of their spaceships in an asteroid dock. No one really
knows how to make the ship go where you want, but you can always make
it go somewhere, and come back if you are lucky. Life on earth is
so bad that this random jumping through space seems like a good
deal to the "hero" of the story Robinette Broadhead. There are also
ways to get rich in this business as bonuses are often paid for missions
that come back with more artifacts or scientific knowledge. Robinette
takes on the job and the result is the book. All in all a rather interesting
book. There are sequels to it but the book was originally designed to stand 
alone and seems to succeed.

						Keith

	.21 I resent the whiskey statement.

				ssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks,

I've borrowed a copy of I Robot... as soon as I finish my current reading
"KGB" I'll dive in.  Sorry I haven't made any responses but I've been so
busy writing time estimates, update data structures etc that I haven't
had time to keep up with my notes reading.  (1 down 60+ to go)

Feel free to make more suggestions... I'll bop in here once in a while just
to see what you people think is interesting.  If anyone is interested I'll
keep you posted on what I think of I Robot.

Steve

    okay I'll throw in my $.02 worth.
    
    for someone whose read Inside The Third Reich (or was that The Rise
    and Fall of... ?) either way, I think you could stomach The Foundation
    Trilogy (Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation).
    It's loosely based on the fall of the Roman Empire, and the creation
    of the Foundation whose purpose is to write the Encyclopedia to
    end all encyclopedias in order to preserve the knowledge of the
    crumbling empire and shorten the dark age to follow. There's lots
    of adventure in the conflicts between the new Foundation and the
    old Empire. It was one of my introductions to SF.
    
    _Lord of Light_ by Roger Zelazny.
    A planet colonized by India, the Techs from the ship augment mental
    abilities with devices to give themselves the powers of the Indian
    pantheon. Its the story of one of the Techs who becomes disillusioned
    with the despotism of his collegues and introduces Buddhism to the
    masses. Zelazny's best.
    
    _The Persistence of Vision_ by John Varley
    A collection of short stories, most set in a common not too distant
    future. The title story is super. The rest are generally fun, with
    interesting ideas about the future of medicine, and technology.
    
    if you like mysteries...
    
    _the Caves of Steel_ Isaac Asimov
    NY City is a huge enclosed megalopolis (as well as all other cities)
    A few planets have been colonized many years ago. There is much
    tension and rivalry between Earth and the "Spacers". So, when a
    Spacer is found murdered, Earth must find the killer and bring him
    too justice, to maintain the tenuous relationship with the spacers.
    The plot is complicated when the detective is forced to work with
    the murdered man's new advanced robot, that looks exactly like a
    human. The murdered man was THE foremost robotics expert, Earth
    has banned all robots except all those that do menial farming tasks
    far from the madding crowd. A good detective story. (but then I'm
    not much of a mystery fan)
    
    Can't think of any other "sure things" ;-) right now, I've probably
    talked too much anyway.                    
    
    sm