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Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

49.0. "Illustrations in Novels" by NISYSG::MCWILLIAMS () Thu Apr 05 1984 02:56

****************************** Flame On ******************************

One of the things that I find disturbing lately is the preponderance
of "illustrated" novels that are coming out. The chief offenders seem
to be ACE and FAWCETT.

When I read a book on science fiction (or fiction in general) I am 
seeking escape, a chance to let my imagination roam free. 
Illustrations tend to get in the way, since my map/visualization/image
often does not coincide with that of the illustrator. The illustration
tends to bind my imagination and channel it.

Second I have seen too many instances where somebody has filled up
a book with illustrations, large (euphemistically called "easy to 
read") type, and converted a novella into a novel with concomitant
increase in price.

****************************** Flame Off *****************************

Any comments ?

/jim
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49.1BABEL::BAZEMOREThu Apr 05 1984 03:1724
I agree that some novels have illustrations which would have been
better left in the artist's head.  But some illustrators give us
a new way of looking at things.  Mike Whalen is a good example.
He did covers for Piper's Fuzzy books and for the MacCaffery's
Dragonriders of Pern books.

I realize you are talking about illustrations other than cover
art...

Elfquest is a very good 'illustrated novel' (most people think
it strongly resembles a comic book).  The pictures are more than
half the story, as the saying goes - a picture is worth a 
thousand words.  I strongly recommend it.  (If you want more
information, I'll be more than happy to rave about it via
mail)

Unfortunately, most of the novels I have seen which include 
illustrations other than the cover art do not come up to
my standards.  Good art is expensive, and I'm sure the
publishers aren't eager to throw a lot of money around
to 'pad out' a novel,  therefore, we get mediocore art,
at best, between the covers.

				Barbara
49.2AKOV68::BOYAJIANThu Apr 05 1984 05:2625
Well, I rather like art, but for the most part, the flame is sound. Most of
the illustrated trade paperbacks (or even mass-market paperbacks) have very
poor illustrations, though there are exceptions, like the couple of Ace trade
books with Alicia Austin illos (she *always* does good work) or the trade
editions of the anthologies DRAGONS OF LIGHT/DARKNESS with the color plates.

Many of the illustrated "specialty press" books have magnificent artwork, and
I tend to feel a tad "cheated" (not financially, but emotionally) when such a
book *does not* have illustrations. Donald Grant, especially, goes out of his
way to get wonderful artists such as Austin, Whelan, Barr, Kirk, et al. to
illustrate the books he publishes.

I can't say that interior illos in books, per se, constrict any imagination
on my part, any more than cover artwork. And, in general, illustrated books
are highly prized by collectors. Many books of the early 20th Century or earlier
were illustrated and often a mark of quality in a book is determined by the
fact that it is illustrated by the likes of Howard Pyle, Gustav Dore, N. C.
Wyeth, Jesse Wilcox Smith, or whomever (in fact, more old books are collected
for the artist than for the story). Not to say that a lot of the artists who
illustrate sf books these days rank with those Fine Artists, but there are
some (mentioned above) who *I* feel do outstanding work, and justify the
concept of the illustrated books.

---jayembee (Jerry Boyajian)

49.3EDEN::MAXSONThu Apr 05 1984 06:496
	I don't like them either, for two reasons. First, the ink gets on
	my fingers; and second, it is a device used mostly in juvenile
	fiction. I'm an adult, I can read, I don't need to "look at the
	pitchers". I believe it speaks poorly of the aesthetics of the author
	and editor; and it's patronizing. I never buy them.
49.4DRAGON::SPERTThu Apr 05 1984 11:5610
"No general statement is true, not even this one."
In Robert Asprin's 'Myth Series' the illustrations add considerably to the
humor since they often portray scenes which don't happen in the story but
are in the spirit of the story.  When Analog still printed art (as opposed
to pseudo-photographs), the illustrations sometimes symbolized the "spirit"
of the story rather than a specific scene.  I'm thinking specifically of
Kelly Freas illustrating Pournelle's Codominium stories but I know there
were other cases.

					John
49.5XENON::COMEFORDFri Apr 06 1984 16:3817
   In general I feel that novellas should not be put into  larger type 
and filled with illustrations to pad them out so we can be suckered to
pay $6.95 for a 50 page novella. However I am a lover of the art of comic 
books. The previously mentioned ElfQuest was/is a comic book and in that
form is a wonderful story. This is due to the fact that the illustrations
are not haphazard but an integral part of the story. That is the other reason
that I oppose illustrations in novels/novellas/&tc because they do not add to 
the story line (which has hopefully been placed in the text along with other 
things like characterization...).  All in all I hope the illustrated novel gets
wiped off the face of the earth by large format comics where the art forms a
major part of the story line.

<FLAME ON!> 
As an aside I really hate these illustrations they throw on covers
which have n naked people, which are of little or no relation to the story line
For example the paperback cover of time enough for Love *GACK*
<FLAME OFF>
49.6NACHO::CONLIFFEFri Apr 06 1984 18:2122
I'll add my two-penny-worth.

I dislike buying trade-paperbacks which are merely large print versions
of regular paperbacks with a few pen & ink sketches thrown in. Currently
on my s---list are:--
	Larry Niven "the Magic Goes Away"
	Jerry Pournelle  "Te Janissaries"
	Gordie R Dickson "The Lost Dorsai"

Another equally dubious practice that both Mr Dickson and Ms Zimmer-Bradley
have perpetrated is the 50 or 60 page article/review/essay at the end of
the regular story. Usually the essay is written by some fan or friend of 
the family and reading how great the author was to build this world / concept
is like drowning in warm maple syrup.

Back to the art for a closing comment; the art in these trade paperbacks
serves a useful purpose.  My wife is a struggling artist who is just starting
to sell stuff at shows and SF cons; I show her these "illustrated" books and
she realises just how good she is!!!  (-: :-)

Niggle
49.7ORAC::BUTENHOFMon Apr 09 1984 14:1821
Illustrations  are  fine if they're integrated into the story. An example of
the extreme is _Elfquest_, a graphic novel (the label "comic" [see flames in
SOAPBOX  on  labels]  is  misleading,  since the scope and sophistication of
_Elfquest_  is  far beyond any comic). This is rather rare, of course. There
was  a  Gahan Wilson story in Harlan Ellison's _Dangerous_Visions_ which was
dependent on the art (well, perhaps "art" is a bit of an overstatement here,
since  it  consisted  of  ink blotches) - in fact, I can't even give you the
title,  since  I don't have a graphics terminal, and I wouldn't have any way
to put it into NOTES anyway.

There are cases, like _The_Magic_Goes_Away_ where the story could have stood
on  its own but was pumped up with illos anyway - in this particular case, I
liked  the  result  (although  I wasn't impressed with the art itself) - but
there are other cases which are thoroughly rediculous.

It  all comes down to taste, though. If the author thinks the story deserves
rich  illos,  that's  the  way  it'll be done. If you think the story didn't
deserve  them,  express  your  dissatisfaction  by  not buying it. But don't
automatically decide it's no good simply because of the illos.

	/dave
49.8AKOV68::BOYAJIANTue Apr 10 1984 09:5633
re:.6

Don't blame Dickson or Bradley or whatever author for those essays! The blame (or
credit, depending on how one feels about them) belongs solely to the editor at the
particular paperback house. In the case of Ace books, it was Jim Baen, who hasn't
been there in quite a while and I don't think his sucessors have continued the
practice.
In some case, I thought the essays had something incisive to say about the works
in question, but I would agree that they didn't really belong in the back of the
books they are discussing. Seemed a little self-serving.

re:.7

Graphic novel, smaphic novel. ELFQUEST is a comic book, pure and simple. I for one
don't find it to be more sophisticated than "any" comic book; try reading AMERICAN
FLAGG!, NEXUS, CEREBUS, or JOURNEY if you want to see sophistication.

<FLAME ON>

I get a little tired of the recent trend of calling certain preferred comics "graphic
novels" as if there was something wrong with being a comic book. A garbage collector
doesn't raise his status by calling himself a sanitation engineer, why should comics
be any different? The only thing that has appeared in the last ten or so years that
I would deign to call a graphic novel is Jim Steranko's CHANDLER, published by the
now-defunct Pyramid Books. Everything else is a comic book (they may be *good* comic
books, mind you, but they're still comic books!)

<FLAME OFF>

(Maybe there should be a comics notefile for this sort of discussion)

---jayembee (Jerry Boyajian)
49.9ORAC::BUTENHOFTue Apr 10 1984 19:059
All a matter of definition.  If you want to call Elfquest a comic book, that's
your business and I don't really care that much.  To me, a comic book is
Superman, etc.  Not necessarily bad, but quite different from Elfquest,
which has nothing in common with them except the use of pictures.  The
characterization, plot, and other elements are more akin to those of a
novel.  Therefore, I (and many others) call it a graphic novel to distinguish
it from its two cousins.

	/dave
49.10AKOV68::BOYAJIANTue Apr 17 1984 04:4012
As a general note of interest, though especially in regards to .4 (though
I know that John Spert already knows about it), WaRP Graphics, publishers/
creators of ELFQUEST, have just released the first issue of MYTH ADVENTURES,
a comic book adaptation of Bob Asprin's Myth series. The art is by Phil
Foglio, who did the illos for the second to fourth books in the series
(the first was done by Kelly Freas). I haven't read any of the books, but
this comic inspires me to do so. The story is a scream, and the Foglio art
makes for one of the most perfect blend of art and story I've ever seen.
Recommended highly.

---jayembee (Jerry Boyajian)
49.11BESSIE::WOODBURYTue May 08 1984 08:0318
	Please be careful.  'Graphic novels' is a phrase already in use for a 
type of literature of rather low quality.  May I suggest some other term, like 
'picturesque' be used in place of 'graphic'.

	On the subject of ilustrated books, some of the illos add to the 
flavor of the book without advancing the plot or characterization.  There are 
others where they are totaly without redeaming value.  (The ones that I like 
least are the catalogues.)  One nice thing about the illustrated novels it 
that they make nice Christmas presents.  I will often buy one or two for my 
father for Christmas.

	I to dislike irrelavent cover illos.  There was one that appeared 
originaly on a Corwainer Smith novel about plaineoforming (Spelled wrong blast 
it but the book is not here to fix it - at any rate - light sail) ships.  Not 
particularly good drawings, but at least relevant.  The same illo appeared on 
another book i an inappropriate context - space ships - not light sail ships.  
(I bought the second book because I was looking for another copy of the first. 
I seem to remember that I was disapointed by the contents.  GRRRrrrr!)
49.12ERIE::ASANKARSun Aug 12 1984 21:514
	...Hey now, what about *good* illos- Boris and Frazetta???
	
					sam