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Conference noted::hackers_v1

Title:-={ H A C K E R S }=-
Notice:Write locked - see NOTED::HACKERS
Moderator:DIEHRD::MORRIS
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 03 1992
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:680
Total number of notes:5456

104.0. ""Modern" DCL?" by EDSVAX::CRESSEY () Fri Mar 29 1985 09:59

    A response a while back made mention of "good, modern DCL...".
    I would like to know where one can go to get GOOD examples of
    readable and elegantly constructed DCL.  

    Most of the examples I have seen come from the documentation,
    and most of those examples make DCL look much worse than it
    really is.  It's unrealistic, and probably inappropriate, to
    expect good sophisiticated examples in reference manuals.  I'd
    like to know where to go to see them.

    Also, are there 'coding standards' emerging for DCL?

    Thanks, 
    Dave
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104.1VAXUUM::DYERFri Mar 29 1985 17:055
> It's unrealistic, and probably inappropriate, to expect good sophisticated
> examples in reference manuals.

	Why?
#6	<_Jym_>\
104.2ACE::BREWERFri Mar 29 1985 15:514
	A few (accurate!) examples in the reference manuals help me more
than pages of text! 

	-John
104.3BABEL::BRETTFri Mar 29 1985 20:4919
Why, because writers aren't programmers, and developers are under too much
pressure to send to much time with the writers.  Here's a fwe suggestions,
based on my experience with the Ada writers over the last to years.


.1 Writers are aware of their problems, but often are timid about asking
   developers.  Get on friendly terms with your writers.  Drop in to their
   office and chat occasionally.

.2 They LOVE IT if you write examples for them.

.3 Try to get them to talk to you BEFORE they start on a new subject.  It makes
   their life easier, and yours.

.4 Developers do have a responsibility toward the manuals.  Browse through them,
   and keep feeding ideas to your writers.


/Bevin
104.4EDSVAX::CRESSEYMon Apr 01 1985 14:2141
    The reason I think it's unrealistic has to do with the logistics
    of preparing examples, getting them merged with the text, and
    getting them to support the text they are merged with.  Then the
    printed result has to get to where I can read it.

    The reason I think it's inappropriate is more interesting.  What
    I'm looking for are 'sophisticated' examples that illustrate
    the relationship between, say, 'structured programming' and DCL.
    I think the inclusion of examples like these in the DCL reference
    manual would *DIMINISH* the manual's usefulness to a broad cross
    section of it's intended redership.

    Many of the people who consult the Command Language Reference Manual
    are not programmers.  To suggest to them that they need to be programmers
    in order to properly exploit the features of the language is to distract
    them from their original problem.  So it's a question of target audience.
    Perhaps the 'Guide to Using Command Procedures' is more appropriately
    targeted to the kind of example I'm looking for.

    While I'm on the subject, many people assume that 'if the writers only
    knew what the developers knew, everything would be OK'.  Wrong. Of course
    there's a large overlap between what the writers ought to know and what
    the developers do know, but there are two significant disjoint sets of
    knowledge required by each group:

    1)  The developers need to know things about the 'internal workings'
    	of the software that the writers ought not to have to know in
    	order to explain the behaviour of the software.  Software that
    	requires knowledge of its internals to explain why it works the
    	way it does is typical of the old-fashioned, 'hacky' software 
    	that we're trying to get away from.

    2)  The writers need to know what the reader's knowledge base is
    	*much more* than the developers do.  Assuming the phase review
    	allows the proposed funcionality of the software pporduct to be
    	verified as potentially comprehensible to its users, it remains
    	the writer's task to turn that potential into reality, just
    	like it was the developer's task to turn the proposed functionality
    	into a reality.

    Dave
104.5VAXUUM::DYERTue Apr 02 1985 03:097
> Software that requires knowledge of its internals to explain why it works the
> way it does is typical of the old-fashioned, 'hacky' software that we're
> trying to get away from.

	Careful.  Remember your audience.  This is the HACKERS NOTESfile!
#6	(-: :-)\
#6	<_Jym_>\