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Conference noted::hackers_v1

Title:	-={ H A C K E R S }=-
Notice:	Write locked - see NOTED::HACKERS
Moderator:	DIEHRD::MORRIS

Created:	Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:	Mon Aug 03 1992
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	680
Total number of notes:	5456

4.0. "Hacking and Programming Styles" by VAXUUM::DYER () Wed Feb 08 1984 15:09

	Here's an excerpt of an article describing programming styles
(according to some professor Papert), and how one of these styles can
indicate a future hacker.  Note that the hackers are identified as
"people with a proclivity for breaking into computer systems".  Inter-
esting....
		<_Jym_>
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Potential computer criminals can be identified, says Papert
  (from The Institute, an IEEE journal, January 1984, pp.14-15)

New York - When children first begin to learn computer programming, potential
"hackers"--people with a proclivity for breaking into computer systems--can be
identified, suggested Seymour Papert, professor of mathematics and education at
the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.  
    
     Once identified, he said, these latent computer criminals can be
socialized to become good citizens.

     Opening the Tenth Annual Computer Security Conference held here Nov 7-9,
Dr. Papert theorized that future hackers can be identified by their programming
styles.  "Children," he said, "develop extremely different styles of
programming, which match adult styles."  

     He described three types of programmers.  One, whom he calls the planner
and whose programs are extremely structured, follows a logical progression.
The second, the painter, programs through interactive and negotiational means,
not knowing what he or she (this style, Dr. Papert said, seems favored by
women) wants, changing the program often and incorporating suggestions from
others.  The third, the identifier, works on the very edge of what the machine
can do in an obscure method that is difficult for anyone else to follow.

     The planner, Dr. Papert said, is rewarded by teachers because his style
follows their expectations of what programming should be.  He takes an
objective view of the computer, seeing it as something outside himself.  The
painter, Dr. Papert said, is considered to be just messing around by teachers
but obtains reassurance from peers.  This type identifies warmly with the
program, but not the computer.

     The identifier, Dr. Papert said, is the potential hacker.  He sees himself
as relating to the computer.  He likes living dangerously close to the edge of
what is possible, knowing that anyone else in that position would crash the
system and that if he does not keep his wits about him at all times he too will
crash.

     Such psychological variations must be considered, Dr. Papert said, when 
computers are brought into schools.  Computers can be beneficial tools, he
added, "but there is a powerful force here, and it is not all for the good."

     Social intervention, he said, is necessary to shape the future use of that
force.

						--Tekla Perry
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T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
4.1		HARE::STAN		`Sat Apr 21 1984 23:48`	7
	This is really terrible. I didn't think there were all these hackers out there, growing up on the edge of reality, being turned into criminals. We must do something about this. I propose that we modify VMS so that it studies the style of programming that each user uses. If the system detects that the user is an "identifier" (as opposed to a planner or a painter) then the system would mail a message to the police ratting on the potential criminal.
4.2		TOPCAT::SHARP		`Wed Apr 25 1984 17:28`	10
	Good thinking, Stan! I'm sure we can hack it up in no time. We'll just have to kludge up DCL to include a decent pattern recognizer (SNOBOL maybe?) then it's just a SMOP to tweak the recognizer into identifying an identifier. But why stop with mailing a message to the police? Let's just massage the ARPA net into letting us at the FBI/CIA data bank and update it to include the alleged perpetrator! (-: Don. :-)
4.3		THETUB::KAKA		`Tue Aug 13 1985 22:36`	6
	But why stop there ! lets use the FBI /CIA links to interpol and get the person listed as the nth most wanted person, then we could hack in there and look at the results, probably need so AI work some where but what the hell its all good fun :-) RdK
4.4	unconstitutional...	CADLAC::WONG		`Sat Mar 08 1986 12:35`	5
	Doesn't this violate the law where it says that the accused is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty? (instead of the other way around?) The Mad Chinaman
4.5	GET HIMMMMMM...	CADDLE::CONCORDIA		`Mon Mar 10 1986 14:01`	7
	RE: .4 Looks like you guys have ferreted out your first identifier... Time to get to work before all of our computers have been violated. :-) Dave :-)
4.6		JON::MORONEY		`Mon Mar 10 1986 15:31`	4
	re .1: But what if the hackers hack the hacker-identifier so it turns in random people, but not the hacker and his friends? -Madman
4.7	department of redundancy dept.	DELNI::GOLDSTEIN	Fred @226-7388	`Mon Mar 10 1986 19:39`	7
	re : -1, .1, You mean, what if the hackers hack the identifier identifier? And what if crackers crack it? What if an identifier identifies the hacker identifier hack? Or if a hacker crack the identifier identifier cracker hack? Sorry, I couldn't resist!
4.8	ivory tower vs. real world	MMO03::NAFTEL		`Fri May 16 1986 12:41`	7
	I don't think this professor fellow ever wrote a program for a customer. If so he'd know that oftentimes you can plan your fool head off, only to have the customer take a look and say "well, would it be much trouble to change your program from doing such-and-such to doing so-and-so, I think that'd be much better..." bill
4.9		DLO10::SIMMONS		`Thu Oct 30 1986 12:40`	3
	The bozo writing the IEEE article appears to be the classic example; nowdays anybody can get a PHD.
4.10	Leap of faith?	NCBDVX::LEE	Slaving away in obscurity	`Thu Nov 13 1986 20:26`	9
	re .0 When I was a child, I programmed as a child... Just a thought, how many children grew up programming computers that are now working in the industry? Recall that the Apple II first became available in 1978... Where did this brain whiz get his data? --Scott
4.11	a few had early exposure	WHICH::EVANS	Robert N. Evans DTN-225-6946 HLO2-3/P4	`Sat Nov 15 1986 13:08`	14
	re: .-1 I had the good fortune to go to a public school which had a very advanced math curriculum. I first was exposed to programming in early 1966 while in 8th grade...kind of by accident, I stopped in the math lab where 12th grade students were trying to get their FORTRAN programs to work on the time sharing terminal. After looking over their shoulders for a few afternoons it all seemed so logical. Two years later the school bought their first minicomputer, a kind of PC as big as a desk. Too bad it wasn't a PDP-8! Our math lab also had breadboards where you could hook up combinations of gates, flipflops, switches, multivibrators and lights. I never made anything that would compute, but by connecting a speaker to one of my circuits I did make electronic music.
4.12	A little bit of history...	NEWVAX::PAVLICEK	Zot, the Ethical Hacker	`Mon Jul 13 1987 21:24`	20
	I realize that the initial note about Seymour Papert's theories regarding "hackers" is old and yellowed (or is it just my amber tube...? 8^} ), but I couldn't overlook a certain bit of history. I have heard the name of Seymour Papert before. I once worked for an OEM who had set up a demonstration of technology with Dr. Papert, using the then-state-of-the-art minicomputer, a PDP-8 (this is just a little before my time...). Apparently, Dr. Papert was to demonstrate to this college audience how his robot turtle would, with the aid of the PDP-8, scoot around on a large piece of paper and draw a picture of a circle. Well, despite many attempts -- and many oblong and/or incomplete circles -- the turtle refused to do its job. Nonetheless, Dr. Papert still became one of the industry's most quoted people in the news media. As I recall (the memory IS foggy), Dr. Papert did eventually succeed at getting a slightly different "turtle" to draw pictures. The result (either directly or indirectly) was the language known as LOGO (or so I've heard...).
4.13	What does he know about the REAL world?	IND::FLADUNG	This mind left intentionally blank...	`Thu Sep 10 1987 20:38`	3
	Does anyone know of anything "real world" that has been written in LOGO? Sometimes when "scientists" mouth opinions, the world hears it as "fact". Too bad. Just another hair brained opinion!
4.14	Done much APL lately?	FROST::HARRIMAN	I've heard this song before	`Fri Sep 11 1987 12:01`	10
	Re: .-1 Depends on what you call the "real world". I know lots of kids who cut their teeth programming LOGO - that may not make it a useful language for writing operating systems, but then again, would you teach your five-year-old BLISS? I think it found it's niche quite nicely. /pjh
4.15		ERIS::CALLAS	Strange days, indeed.	`Fri Sep 11 1987 14:13`	5
	I've heard that there are some accounting systems written in Logo. Since Logo is really just Lisp with a decent syntax, you can do a lot with it. Jon
4.16	It's in the eye of the debugger	MDVAX3::COAR	And your little dog, 2!	`Wed Oct 07 1987 17:41`	7
	I dunno.. my first `real' programming experience was on a WANG 2200 with 4K, using interpreted BASIC. Believe me, you learned how to write convoluted code if you wanted to do anything worthwhile in 4K! Might this explain why the next language I learned was APL? What kind of personality does this make me? #ken "BLISS-32 Programer By Choice" Coar :-)}