Conference noted::equitation

    
    	I think it's because they're very easy to fit improperly, 
    	causing pain to the horse.

    Same thing for Bozals.  it's very easy to ruin a good head with one if
    fitted poorly.
    
    

    please excuse my ignorance, but i don't know what you mean by
    "ruining" a good head.   how can that happen???  i don't mean
    to sound so stupid, but i just want to be sure that i'm not doing
    that.  
    
    thanks...jane

    I started to say "What the [bleep] are hacks?" but when somebody said
    "bosals" it clicked.

    
    	John....I was thinking along the lines of hack horses....
    
    	We use bosals or side pulls when we break the 2 yr olds.
    
     

    
    In the hands of a rough or inexperienced rider, a mechanical
    hackamore can break a horse's jaw.....
    
    
    

    what is a bosal?
    

    
    
    	A bosal.. 
    
    
    	I think it's mexican - but, what it looks like is stiff rope that 
    	goes over the horses nose with a big knot on the end.  
    
    	You see alot of arab adds with them displayed.. 

    I too use a hackamore on my young mare. It is one with a fleece lined
    flat leather noseband, very short shanks, and a leather curb strap
    (Stateline sells this variety as an "English" hackamore). 
    
    There are many kinds of hackamores just as there are bits. As in
    bitting, if the hackamore is ill-fitted or ill-used harm will result. 
    I don't know why they  should receive any worse a rap than bits.   Some
    are no more than expensive halters where some are real jaw crunchers. 
    Just as some bits are mild and others quite severe.
    
    

    Ruining a good head means that when a bosal is fitted incorrectly it
    can rub the jaw and nose area causing the animal to toss it's head and
    resist commands.  
    
    Bosals are made of rawhide braided or wrapped over stiff rope or
    rawhide then shaped into a teardrop and connected.  Horsehair reins are
    used and are wrapped around the bottom of the teardrop part of the
    bosal.  This can be adjusted to fit each horse correctly.
    
    Bosals are used mostly in Western and stock horse training.  From my
    experiences it breaks a horse to neckreining while leaving it's mouth
    alone.  Most animals never have a bit in thier mouths if they aren't
    competing.  This is just my experience and is in no way a professional
    statement.
    
    

    
    I broke my four year old (at 3 years), with a snaffle.  But he is
    a fiesty HUGE babe, being a nearly 16H quarter horse who loves to
    rear all the time.  (playing of course).  So now I use a hackamore
    on him, and boy does he listen to everything I tell him.  I love
    it.  He used to play with the snaffle in his mouth, or the chin
    chain, and flip his head all the time.  Well, he doesn't do that
    anymore.   I am now teaching him neckreining with the hack, where
    he was taught english to start.  
    
    Gee, maybe he was just trying to tell me that he was Western
    through and through!!   :-)
    
    I want to barrel race with him, do any of you folks know the
    set rules for barrel racing?  Or the record time for that?
    
    thanks....jane
                  

    Hackamore and Bosal training get my vote completely.
    
    Every one of my horses was trained initially with a side pull or
    hackamore and as a result every one could at any point in time be
    mounted a ridden with nothing more than a leadrope and halter.
    
    I believe this training is also good for the rider, it requires him/her
    to concentrate on all the aids and can, if used properly, eliminate a
    dependancy on the bit only.

Hi!

I've used a side pull and seen hackamores in use for both western and
english (I think the english version was called a 'jumping' hackamore).  My
question is, what is the difference between the side pull and the hackamore.

I realize that the side pull has no 'leverage' shanks like the hackamore, 
but is that the only difference?  I keep hearing them referred to as
if they are in the same family, but is the only thing that relates them
the 'no bit' issue?  

Also, I've seen side pulls with a snaffle bit attached.  When/why would
you want to use this arrangement?

Thanks,

Jan

    re Jane's snaffle vs hackamore note
    
    >...He used to play with the snaffle in his mouth, or the chin
    >chain,
    
    What kind of bit are you talking about here? If it's what I think it
    is, it *ain't* a snaffle.
    
    John

    >what is the difference between the side pull and the hackamore?
    
    The side pull is the modern day descendant of the 17th & 18th century 
    cavesson. In those days, the cavesson wasn't just a noseband to keep 
    the horse's mouth closed. It had reins attached and was used for the 
    basic training before the horse was ready to accept the curb, much 
    like modern dressage horses are trained in snaffles until ready for 
    the double bridle. The side pull is just that. If you pull on one rein,
    the horse feels pressure on the other side of its face.
    
    What most people think of as a hackamore should really have another
    name. Actually, many people call it the "mechanical hackamore" to
    distinguish it from the true hackamore. The word "hackamore" is an 
    Americanization of the Spanish word, "jacquima." The jacquima is the 
    true hackamore. The "noseband" of the true hackamore is the bosal 
    which was described earlier in this string.
    
    The Spanish tradition of training in the 16th & 17th centuries used the
    jacquima as the preliminary training device. After the horse was well
    along in its training, the curb was substituted for the jacquima. The
    jacquima puts pressure on the horse's nose.
    
    The mechanical hackamore is essentially a curb bit which uses 
    pressure on the nose & poll of the horse rather than pressure on its 
    mouth & poll.

    re: side pull.  
    
    I've used a side pull and I like it a lot.  It's like a combination
    halter and snaffle bridle, uses direct pressure on the nose, and
    teaches babies to carry the bit (nothing is initially attached to
    the bit. As you progress with training, you can attached reins and
    supplement the pressure on the nose with pressure on the bit.)
    
    I think a side pull is a wonderful, humane training aid.  
    
    

    WE'll start a horse in a side pull with out the bit, and as they 
    progress, we add the bit combination as stated in .16.
    
    We also use a side pull on an older horse that suddenly gets ring 
    sour.  Many of the older horses at the barn are school horses and
    they seem to appreciate the break on their mouth.
    

    We use the cavasons on the Peruvian Pasos.  They are trained in
    traditional style and there are very set rules as to when the horse can
    be ridden and when he can carry a bit.  I agree with the fact that if
    you have to ride an animal with just the halter, having them broke with
    a side pull or cavason makes a bid difference.  Also, we have had
    occasion with an older Quarter mare to just ride her with a rope
    around her neck.  The neck reining taught to her with a bosal is all
    she needs.  WEll, to stop you have to use your seat a bit.
    
    

    re .14
    
    i used a full cheek snaffle, and a d-ring snaffle.   now i am
    using the "mechanical" hackamore, with proper fitting, and he
    lOvES it!!  i think Kiamo (my horse), just doesn't like anything
    in his mouth.  but for training purposes, i recommend a hackamore.

>    i used a full cheek snaffle, and a d-ring snaffle.   

It's not just the rings, it's the size of the mouthpiece, and where in
the mouth the bit is placed.

For example, I would *love* to be able to use a nice fat hollow mouth 
on my horse.  However, he does not react well to having a large wad in 
his mouth. *He* spends more time trying to get the darn thing out of 
his mouth than he does listening to me.  *He* prefers a thin mouthpiece - 
.5" at the ring end, or less.  So, even though his mouth doesn't require a
thin mouthpiece *for control*, it does require it for *comfort*.

Another case in point.  There's another horse in our barn who prefers that
the bit ride low in his mouth. Adjust it so there are no to barely one
wrinkle and he's happy as a clam.  Adjust the bit so it fits "properly" and
he turns into a tense unhappy critter.

I have no beef against *properly adjusted* hackamores, mechanical or otherwise,
just the bias that one is always better than another. One need to look at your 
training goals, your horse and what he/she is comfortable with, and what
*you* are knowledgeable about.

The key words with *ALL* equipment is How It Fits.  If it don't fit correctly,
it will do you more harm in the long run.

(I'm off my soapbox now...)


kmr

    Jane,
    
    The reason I asked what kind of snaffle you had been using is that you
    made a comment about a "chin chain". Neither a full cheek snaffle nor a
    d-ring nor any other ordinary snaffle has a chin chain, lip strap, lip
    chain, etc. The reference to a chin chain made me think you might have
    been refering to a "Western snaffle" or something like that. Such bits
    are actually *curbs* even though they are frequently(and mistakenly)
    called snaffles.
    
    Switching from a "Western snaffle" to a mechanical hackamore would
    probably be going to a less severe bit.
    
    john

    
    John, as you can see I'm a bit of a novice as far as "equine lingo"
    goes.  :-)   I'm learning a lot from this notes file, however.
    I appreciate you filling me in on that.  What is that chain called
    then?  
    
    thanks!
    jane

    I know the bit you are refering to, It's a d-ring, w/ a curb chain, and
    it is called.....(it's right there at the tip of my tongue ...see it)

    You're not thinking of some form of Kimberwicke are you? They have
    d-shaped rings & a curb chain but they are really low leverage curbs.
    I don't know of any snaffle bit that has a curb chain.

    
    
    	Hi John...  this is beginning to feel like the question when is
    	a snaffle not a snaffle etc etc ...  I thought that a snaffle
    	was ANY bit which was broken in the middle (regardless of the
    	cheeks, presence of shanks [and in the case of a western "style"
    	with shanks would come some form of chain like a curb bit] )
    
    	I don't have my copy of the bits and bitting book w/me and I have
    	loaned it to a friend to read, but I know there is definition in
    	there.  
    
    	help........  smiles - h

    A snaffle is any bit which does not have a leverage component to its
    action and has no curb chain. Once a bit has a leverage component and/or 
    a curb chain, it is no longer a snaffle regardless of whether the mouth 
    is straight, broken or ported. Such bits are technically curbs.
    
    I believe that under western equitation rules, all curb bits including
    the so-called Western snaffle, must be ridden with one hand while true
    snaffles may be 2-handed.
    
    The snaffle category is frequently subdivided into straight mouth, mullen
    mouth, or broken mouth. The broken mouth subdivision includes
    all the unusual bits like the Baucher snaffle, Fillis snaffle, etc
    which are just variations on the theme.

    Snaffle 101:
    
    I have never heard a snaffle with a chin chain refered to as a western
    snaffle.  I have used free ring snaffles (Or driving snaffle as I have
    once heard it called) to break younguns to the bit.  I use a leather
    strap or chin strap.  
    
    
    Gin

    
    Oh, so OHL_TA is you Virginia! I thought you left DEC & moved to Idaho.
    
    When I said "Western snaffle", I was refering to the Tom Thumb type of
    bit. If I remember right, those bits have a little ring right next to
    the ring for the bridle cheeks. That second ring is for a curb strap or
    curb chain. The strap or chain have about the same effect so I
    don't usually bother about any difference between them. 
    
    Between the long shanks and curb strap/chain, that type of bit is not
    a snaffle. It's a curb. I've also heard that bit called a "cowboy
    snaffle" so I guess it goes by different names. According to some
    folks, the broken mouth combined with the curb action makes that type
    of bit very strong.
    
    john

    Sorry about that John.  I moved to another office in California and it
    too FOREVER to get the accounts fixed.
    
    I have never heard of the western snaffle you mentioned.  But I have
    been away from horses for a few years now.  I will have to visit my
    local tack store and check those out.
    
    Gin

    I once bought a used bridle at a tack swap that came with a Tom Thumb
    in it. It is jointed, has approx. 2.5 inch long shanks and a leather
    chin strap. I tried it on my mare once out of curiousity, and she
    seemed very offended by it, so I put it away and sort of forgot about
    it. Normally I ride this mare in either a fat ol' rubber snaffle with
    loose rings or a wide full cheek, so she is used to mild bits.
    

    Re Kathy R's comments:
    >For example, I would *love* to be able to use a nice fat hollow mouth
    >on my horse.  However, he does not react well to having a large wad in
    >his mouth. *He* spends more time trying to get the darn thing out of
    >his mouth than he does listening to me.  *He* prefers a thin mouthpiece -
    >.5" at the ring end, or less.  So, even though his mouth doesn't require a
    >thin mouthpiece *for control*, it does require it for *comfort*.
    
    If we weren't 3,000 miles apart, I'd swear you were talking about my
    gelding! He's *exactly* the same way. I tried him with a fat hollow
    mouth eggbut one time. He spent the whole time flipping the bit in his
    mouth, sticking his head up in the air to avoid contact, dropping his
    back and acting like a lunatic. 
    
    I switched him to a 1/2" eggbut snaffle and presto chango he was back
    to normal. He just didn't have room in his mouth for that big fat bit!
    
    That was 8 years ago. Since then, I learned how to check a mouth and
    eliminate what kinds of bits *won't* work and which ones might fit.
    
    john

Hi - I was totally lost at first with American terminology !! - but as I 
worked my way through the notes it became more clear...!!  

I am of the opinion that a horse's mouth comes in all shapes and sizes, some 
thick, some thin.  A horse with a thick mouth may prefer a thin bit and vice 
versa.  Some prefer a straight bar and some jointed.  There are no set rules. 
 I don't believe that any bit is more 'kind/harsh' - it really is literally 
in the 'hands' of the rider!!  Good hands, make a good mouth!!!  If you ride 
heavy handed, and pull your horse in the mouth, your horse will soon let you 
know by shaking his head/lean on the bit etc to compensate - but so often we 
think he needs something stronger because of this 'misbehaviour', and all he 
really needs is the opinion of a good trainer on the ground to watch how you 
ride and the horse's way of going - and perhaps his teeth checked for any 
soreness.  A horse that is hard mouthed / strong and ignores the rider's 
instructions, will need something stronger for all round safety, like a bit 
from the pelham/kimblewick range (with a curb chain on the back) this type of 
bit acts on the poll as well as the corners of the mouth.  

I have never used a hackamore so can't comment - but have been very 
interested by all your comments - cheers  Bye - Jo