Conference noted::equitation

    re.14
    Why start with a dressage instructor if you can't keep your heels down,
    leg on and hands quiet? Because if I had not gotten into pushing my
    heels down (and forward), and arching my back in an attempt to keep my
    legs quiet while out of balance with the horse, I would not have nearly
    so much to unlearn! I have found the difference between hunt seat and
    dressage instructors to be very great. Around here(PA), beginners are
    put to fences long before they are ready in an attempt to make the
    lessons more exciting. It would have been far better to start out on a
    lunge line and develop a good seat instead of wasting my money to
    become terrified of jumping. Your experience may be different, but my
    advise to anyone looking for lessons is to look for a "balanced seat"
    instructor, with well trained quiet horses to learn on.
    Sandy
    

    
    I used to ride huntseat and I took huntseat lesson for about 10yrs.
    I started to take balance seat lessons and I have learned so much
    more about my riding and learned much more about the horse.  I find
    that everying in my balance seat lessons "make sence".  I went to
    watch a class rated A hunter show and I was appauld at the way the
    riders road.  I to would advise begginer riders to try balance seat
    first, then make a decision on which seat you want to make your
    ride of choice.
    
    It's taken me about 2yrs to re-think all my huntseat habbits and
    get rid of them.  I feel more at 1 with my house now that I've
    found my ride of choice.
    
    Lkp

    What were the huntseat habits you needed to get rid of?  I have a few
    myself, I'm looking for a matching list from someone else!

    
    #1 hunt seat problem to overcome - Stop leaning forward!
    #2 Stop being stiff as a board and to move w/ the horse
       (learning to move w/ the horse has given me a nice comfy 
        sitting trott on any gaited horse)
    #3 Use proper aids for the canter.  Hunter seat, I would lean
       forward and ask w/outside rain inside leg.  now I push from
       my seat and sit deep in my seat (hardest one to overcome)
    #4 Not to rely on my rains for steering the horse
    
    Those are just a few on the top of my head.  Since balance seat,
    it has been easier to train my horse, he picked up leg yeilds
    very well (thou we still have trouble w/ being straight) and
    he can pick up new things at the drop of a hat.  Like, flying
    leadchanges.. with the proper bend, you can achieve anything!
    
    What are your?
    
    lkp

    
    re: -1
    
    I don't know that I would blame this on 'hunt seat' in general. 
    
    I have ridden with a lot of 'hunter' trainers that teach--
    
    #1 Stop leaning forward!
    #2 Stop being stiff as a board and to move w/ the horse
    #3 Use proper aids for the canter.  
    #4 Not to rely on my rains for steering the horse
    
    Those who study the George Morris method tend to teach the above.  And
    those riders tend to do the best at the shows. 
    
    In fact, a bunch of us who all studied with the same trainers competed
    in dressage and horse trials as well as hunter shows.   And we did 
    very well in dressage as well. 
    

>>    #2 Stop being stiff as a board and to move w/ the horse
>>    #4 Not to rely on my rains for steering the horse

    After almost 4 years of balance seat lessons I have come to the
    conclusion that it takes more than 4 years to really sit well.

    The "hunter" problems, esp these 2 come from holding on to the horse
    and not really Sitting well.  The uppercase s is intentional.

    I had seen a Hunter video, don't know the title where 2 women are
    doing figure 8's over 2 calvetti placed end to end.  Unarguably the
    horses in the video were soft and supple.

    In the last 4 months or so there was an interview with Morris, either
    the Pedlar or the Equine Journal where he said the only way to ride
    was classical, with jumping being forward seat of course.

    Doesn't classical = balance seat = dressage ?

    I rode hunt seat for about a year and a half and started dressage
    after a 9 year layoff.   Looking back any flat work was warm up for 
    jumping.

    Bill
    ps: But there is something incredibly comfortable about the 
        2 point position...

    After 20 years of riding hunt seat, I now ride saddle seat, and my
    biggest problem is leaning forward!  I got bopped in the chin by my
    horse a few months ago cause of this.  Saddlebreds tend to have a big
    rolling canter and I did my typical hunt seat thing and when his head
    came back up, I caught it.  Fortunately my tongue wasn't between my
    teeth.  My riding instructor says this is the *biggest* problem with
    huntseat riders working in any other riding discipline, whether it is
    saddle seat, stock seat, etc - this leaning forward.
    
    The other problem, thought not as big for me, is stiffness in my lower
    back so that sometimes I'm not rolling with the canter but banging on
    the saddle.
    
    I wonder what the theory was back in 1967, when I started riding, to
    ride this way.  Do hunt seat lessons today have you lean forward for
    the canter?   What is it about hunt seat that makes people so stiff?

    re: .22
    
    As a read only, I couldn't help but reply to this.  My daughter has
    been riding hunt seat for a year and a half, she is now age six.  They
    have instructed her to sit back in for the canter and go with the
    horse's movements.  I guess I was a little concerned/confussed in
    seeing the replies of people being instructed to sit foward for the
    canter?  Seems a little risky, to say the least?
    
    Candy

    
    
    Great Discussion!
    
    Hunt seat can equal balanced seat.  I think that stirrup length is a
    big factor here.  The short stirrup and normally larger knee roll on
    huntseat/jumping saddles make it easy for the rider to instinctively
    grip with the knee.  (I've even heard some instructors say "grip with
    your knees!")  Once you grip with your knees, you are more likely
    to be stiff elsewhere.  Also, when you grip with your knee, you are
    more likely to be popped right up out of the saddle, or the knee ends
    up acting at a pivot point making it easier for you upper body to tip
    foward and back.  The longer stirrup used in balance/dressage, positions
    the leg in a manner that enables the knee to be looser and allows for
    an active lower leg.  If your knees are gripping the saddle, your lower
    leg comes off the horse and this makes it much harder to keep the horse
    between your legs and on the aids.  Riders that grip with their knees 
    are at the mercy of horse's who like to run out at fences because their
    lower leg is ineffective.  It is very important to try to consciously
    keep your legs soft and at any discipline.   2-point positions are fine
    as long as you aren't leaning too far forward and as long as you keep
    your knees and legs relaxed. 
    
    My $.02
    
    Simone
                                
    

    A lot of people think that saddle seat is keeping the lower leg off the
    horse and only gripping with the knees - dead wrong!  I find saddle
    seat much more comfortable than hunt seat was for me because of the
    straight sitting up, using your whole leg against the horse - very
    important for the equitation riders that have all the serpentines,
    figure 8s, etc.  Also, now that I'm using my whole leg, I usually :)
    have a lot more feel of what the horse is doing underneath me.
    
    The downside of saddle seat is that flexiblity in horses doesn't
    usually have the same emphasis as huntseat.  Though my particular
    trainer works on the lunge quite a lot.  Frankly, since I've started
    riding saddleseat, my seat is a whole lot more secure than it was
    riding huntseat and death gripping with my knees.  I'm sure things are
    fairly different now than they were during my formative years of riding
    but "grip with the knees" just about sums up what I learned. 
    Interestingly enough, I've been reading a book called "Training the
    Western Horse" written about 1949 and put out by the University of
    Oklahoma Press.  This writer started (I'm sure he's dead now, he was
    fairly mature in the book back then), all his western horses under an
    english saddle and worked them to a full bridle before moving them into
    stock styles.  His BIG complaint with hunt seat was the way "grip with
    the knees" was THE BIG teaching style, because it only promotes an
    insecure seat and stiffness.  Also, saddle seat back then was grip with
    the knees too.  It's interesting to look that far back and see that he
    was rather a visionary in this country for that sort of thing.  
                                                                    
    

    
    
    I doubt that any 'hunter' trainer who has riders competing regionally
    or nationally tells their riders to lean or to grip with their knees. 
    
    This was a popular training method many years ago (when heavily padded
    saddles were the rage).  Currently, the top equitation riders use close 
    contact saddles, use the entire leg on the horse, don't pinch anywhere, 
    and tend not to 'lean'.  
    
    As far as two point and 'leaning' forward for beginner riders, that
    position certainly can keep the rider from being pitched over the 
    horses neck by having the canter stride wham the horses back into the 
    rearend of the rider.  Many trainers start young riders in this
    position so they can get used to the rolling motion of the canter. 
    Then as the rider becomes more secure and supple, they have the rider
    situp and DOWN into the saddle.  Whether a rider should start out by 
    sitting the canter or riding the 2 point is an age old argument where
    both schools have their benefits.  

    
    When I went to the class A show this summer.  I noticed that
    all the hunter hack type of classes were filled, but the equatation
    class was about empty.  And the riders in that class were all
    leaning forward over the horses neck.  There was a well knows
    trainer from WildAir farm in the ring also. Not 1 person was
    sitting to the canter, they all looked like they were going to 
    jump something any minute.
    
    After watching this class, and seeing instructers in the class
    this gave me the opionin that they still teach riders to ride
    this way.
    
    

    Extracted from Note 1839.14                   
MR4SRV::CHMIBU::MShamel                              28 lines   3-JAN-1994 14:05
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[ most of stuff abou lesson rates deleted]


	I also find the difference in prices for dressage and hunt seat 
	lessons interesting.  While I am primarily a dressage rider, I find 
	that the basic principles are the same until you get to much higher 
	levels.  As someone once told me, Jumping is simply dressage over 
	fences.  The rider and horse must be trained.  Especially for 
	beginners, I cannot see paying the extra money.  If you cannot keep 
	your leg on, your heels down and your hands quiet, why pay more for 
	the lesson?

TERSE::FANTOZZI                                      11 lines   5-JAN-1994 09:51
                              -< Did the reverse >-
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    I rode hunt seat before I started my balance seat/dressage lessons.
    When I went to my current instructor I was terrible. Everything was
    stiff and tight and sloppy. I knew how to keep my heals down, etc. but
    was as stiff as a board. I have found I have learned MUCH more in
    balance seat/dressage lessons then I did with my hunt seat and have
    developed into a much better rider than I was a year ago.
    
    Mary
    

    Can't help but jump in here. I've never been known to pass a good
    debate!
    
    I recently started reading Sylvia Loch's book "The Classical Seat."
    In it, she specifically cites George Morris and many of those who have
    trained with him as being advocates of the classical seat *between*
    jumps. She also cites the German showjumping riders as being
    particularly adept at taking the classical seat between jumps. I would 
    add the French to that list. Watch them carefully in the next Nations' 
    Cup you get to see. Most of them ride in a classical seat.
    
    Of the North American's, take a look at Ian Millar or Bernie Traurig.
    Both ride and jump superbly in such a seat.
    
    In Loch's opinion, the classical seat consists of sitting balanced on
    your seat bones, being vertical with the body and being relaxed &
    supple. She describes it as being similar to standing but with bent
    knees. She says you can't take the classical seat with the stirrups 
    very short.
    
    The obvious advantage of taking the classical seat between jumps is
    that you have much more control over the horse. So, it's easier for
    the rider to bend the horse, take tight turns in a jumpoff, adjust the 
    horse's stride(i.e. collect or lengthen it), align the approach to the
    jump, etc.
    

    
    
    After riding two years of hunt seat and then moving to balance seat I
    had a ton of things I had to relearn and it has taken me a year to fix
    those things.
    
    I too had the same problems when I started balance seat. I leaned
    forward, I could not sit to a canter I looked like I was cantering
    also, my legs were very weak, I was stiff as anything, I could not open
    my hips to move.
    
    Needless to say, it was a very frustrating experience. I find now my
    ride to be much more enjoyable.
    
    Louisa has been video taping me over the past two years and there is a
    noticeable difference from when I was hunt seat vs. balance seat. I am
    straight, with no leaning forward.
    
    Mary
    

    At one of the shows held at the Deerfield fairgrounds this summer, I
    watched one of the hunter pleasure classes.  The winner was from L.M.
    Turner stables and rode in the 2 point position completely.  Also her
    hands were lower than the withers of the horse.  I sat with two people
    who knew her and were thrilled with her win.  I was really curious
    because years ago my hunter was a real pleasure horse and we did well
    in that type of class but it was at least sitting down if leaning
    forward.  These two people told me that this girl's horse is "cold
    back" and you can't sit on cold back horses - you maintain the 2 point
    position.  I don't really buy that - I mean I've never seen a
    Saddlebred that was cold back if you take that view - but for the point
    of arguement say that a lot of hunter style horses are cold back - it
    would seem to disqualify it even further for winning a pleasure horse
    title.  Also, riding with your hands below the withers continuously
    didn't look like a pleasure to me.  But I was assured that "lots of
    hunters" are cold back.  Just seems funny that from 1969 to 1975 when I
    was really showing in hunter and handy hunter, no one ever rode in 2
    point unless it was between jumps or getting ready for jumps.  Also if
    the horses were cold back, we never knew.  
    
    Probably like anything (Hypoglycemia was the big rage 15 years ago -
    everyone had it), riding everything in the 2 point is a fad, but not an
    attractive one.  

    
    	
    	Hi everyone
    
    	I'm really enjoying this note... over the past 3 months I have
    returned to riding (regularly) after almost 5 years of just cleaning
    stalls, raising babies and starting the young horses in harness. Oh
    I'd jump on my broodmares once in a while and take a trail ride, and
    occasionally ride a friends horse - but nothing consistant.
    
    	Well, now my young mare (who will turn 4 this summer) has been
    at the trainers (for 3 almost 3 months) for saddle work and every 
    Saturday I go and take a lesson.  She walks, trots, canters, circles,
    manuvers the caveletti's (thats a cute story) and goes forward nicely.
    
     	This has gotten me riding with a friend during the week as
    well and now I'm actually getting back in shape.  Next weekend I will
    be bringing "d.v." home so that I can ride every day after work and
    it will be really GREAT for both of us.
    
    	She is a morgan and seems destined for the "Classic Pleasure"
    division - which is saddleseat - no long feet/pads/weight - and ridden
    by an amature only.  I rode saddleseat all my childhood - mostly
    saddlebreds and a few Morgans and was taught to "hug with your knees".
    Later in life I have ridden western pleasure and took some dressage
    lessons.  But probably most impactful - has been starting many young
    horses under saddle - which has given me a (in the words of my trainer
    "way too forward seat - you're gonna get BOPed in the nose!") position.
    I also have been working on an extremely stiff lower back (I think the
    two go hand in hand).  
    	I know it will improve with daily exercise and both of us working
    together - and I have had one lesson per month taped so I know I AM 
    improving - but I am really open to hearing how others have overcome
    this "position" and replaced it with what my horse needs.  That
    includes some mental notation on my part to make sure my arms are not
    frozen (so she doesn't pull me forward either)...
    	All thoughts are appreciated!
    
    	smiles - holly
    

    
    RE:-17
    
    I see where my perspective differs. 
    
    I was basing my comments on 'hunter' as in the AHSA HUNTER, AHSA 
    HUNTER SEAT EQUITATION and AHSA JUMPER divisions.  
    
    Very often, AHSA breed divisions demonstrate very different styles 
    and preferences than the actual AHSA HUNTER... divisions even though
    the rules for the breed divisions may refer to the HUNTER division 
    rules. 
    
    Having shown in many different breed divisions, what is considered 
    'in' for the breed may not win or even place in the HUNTER division 
    and vice versa.  I was at the Arabian National championships and
    was stunned and amazed at many of the top finishing 'hunters' in the 
    hunter pleasure divisions.   Some could have gone to an AHSA HUNTER
    division show and done well (with a few modifications).  But most of 
    the others went in a manner that would scare the dickens out of me 
    if they went that way approaching a fence.  

    re: 14
    
    I have shown hunters/jr equitation/adult equitation/dressage for the
    past 15 years (not including the 5 years I took off) and showed A horse
    shows the last 7 or eight of those years (including last year).
    
    In hack classes at the rated shows, most hunters are shown at the
    canter in 2-point.  The horse is being judged on how it moves.  Riding
    in the 2-point makes the horse "look" to be a better mover if the rider
    is not sitting on the back.  It makes the horse look like he has a more
    "flowing" canter...
    
    I started riding hunt seat, switched to dressage for 5 years, then went
    back to hunt seat.  I was riding at 3rd level dressage when I switched
    back.  From then on, all of my horses and horses that I rode went much
    better - more supple, on the bit, etc...When I show hunters, I ride
    with a "professional slouch".  It allows me to get off their back and
    let them flow freely - especially in a hack class and if I'm going for
    points and the horse isn't a "10" mover.  But in equitation, I ride
    straight and soft.  My horse is ALWAYS on the bit and soft and relaxed
    and also moving forward but not in the same frame as a hack class.
    
    Last year I was riding jumpers and my instructor got one in the barn
    that was really wacko....he was the only horse he'd let me ride
    (besides Kiirja's horse in shows).  You couldn't put leg on this horse,
    had a mouth of steel, and was a neurotic mess.  I went back to my
    dressage training - actually rode the horse in my dressage saddle.  By
    the time we sold him at the end of the year, people couldn't believe it
    was the same horse.  He was still nervous, but that was part of his
    personality, he responded to leg, was on the bit, very supple, and doing 
    flying changes.  We did a video of him jumping 4'6" - he was quite an
    impressive horse.   
    
    I am totally in favor of dressage and hunters and I firmly believe that
    my dressage training made all the difference in the world with this
    horse.  Yes we used "gimmicks" every now and then - but 99.9% of the
    work on this horse was basic dressage work.
    
    And yes, one of the hardest things in going back to dressage work is
    sitting up straight, though since I had a lot of dressage background it
    was easier for me than it is for some people...and yes I do find myself
    slouching - but the mirror in the indoor arena fixes that real fast.
    
    Kris
    

    Kris,
    
    I'm curious. How does slouching get you off the horse's back? When I
    slouch, I feel heavier on their back.

John,

I think that Kris' slouch is what I call 'schooling horse hunch', where you 
have a tendency to tip forward off your seat bones and round your shoulders.

From what I've seen, in practice, there's a great difference between riding 
for (horse) performance and riding for equitation.  In the performance classes
(hunter hack, hunter over fences, pleasure) you tend to see more of the 
'hunched' style, while in the equitation classes, since they're judged on the
person and not the horse, is where you find the 'other' style of hunt seat 
riding.

Horses may also be classified as 'equitation horses', which to my mind means 
that they are classy movers on their own and are easy enough to sit on that 
you don't have to 'make' them perform.  They may jump in a slightly flatter 
style than the 'hunters'. (note that this is my own interpretation of what
I have seen in my limited exposure to circuit shows)


kathy

    Thanks Kathy,
    
    I've had a hard time getting in the conference today...
    
    Yes, that is what I mean by slouching....I tend to do it riding in hack
    classes where the horse is being judged, but in equitation I "show off"
    as my instructor says...
    
    Fortunately Harvey was a great equitation horse and allowed me to do
    that....now if I can ever get my knee into riding shape again....maybe
    next year...

    Oh, I see. It's not slouching at all...It's just a light seat with a
    "bad habit" thrown on top. I've been there! VS was forever after me 
    to "stop looking in my prayer book" which was his pet phrase for 
    hunching the shoulders!