Conference noted::equitation

  Virginia,

   Good Question.  I don't know for sure, but I think that some folks (mostly
   European? -> Germans,Dutch,French,etc.) crossed Thoroughbreds (hot blood)
   with some of their favorite local cold blood draft breeds and came out with
   what are now call warmbloods.  How's that for guessing??  
   

   I can only assume that, through the years, those horses that performed the 
   best,or had a preferred conformation or appearance, were re-bred until 
   certain strains of warmblood appeared.  Trakheiner,Dutch warmblood,the 
   french have a name for their warmblood, I beleive, but I forget what it is..
   
   Typically, warmbloods are from European descent.  Many of the stallions
   used in the States for breeding purposes were/are shipped from overseas.

   The most popular ones in the States are usually quite tall (15.2->18hh) 
   and large boned, and are usually fairly even tempered -> ie; not "Hot" 
   like the Thoroughbred stereotype.

   They became very popular over here, especially in the dressage world, 10
   to 15 years ago.  

   They are usually quite expensive.

   Enough speculation...Anyone out there with any cold, hard facts???

   /Simone   

   P.S.  I think there's some Warmblood discussion/debate in the dressage note
         (#10)

    hi Simone,
    
    	I guess we are the only ones who care to find out about this.  The
    truth is, Someone in my area just paid an outrageous price for a
    warmblood.  I asked her what exactly what she bought and she couldn't
    tell me but it was a "warmblood."  He stands about 16hh and has a huge
    head.  To me he looks like a lost kid all the time.  She rode him the
    other day and tried some fences.  This guy is close to being a total
    clod.  She says he is for drssage, so isn't supposed to be able to
    jump.
    
    	It seems to me she is more lost than I am.
    
    
    virginia

Please don't condemn all warmbloods based on this one!

From what I have read and seen, the explanation of crossing throughbreds with cold
bloods is exactly how you got the original warmblood.  Now every country under
the sun has a 'warmblood' - all are variations on a theme.  Very few appear to be 
recognized breeds.

The warmblood is typically a milder temprament and bigger horse but again, not always.
They are usually bought for dressage as they move with grace and catch the judges
eye.  However, some turn out to be excellent eventers.  One in our barn was Novice
Horse of the Year in Area I for Combined Training.

Also, they are typically expensive because of the reputation.  And as we all know,
price does not necessarily get you a great horse!  As with all animals, you have
to know not only the history of the animal, but what you want to do with it, what
you can put into its training, and most of all, what the animal is capable of.

Marsha

 Some warmbloods are created by breeding to Arabian stallions. This is 
 happening in Poland and in Holland that I know of, and probably other
 places too. See note 205.27 for more information on this.

 Topic 1567 discusses the Selle Francais, sometimes referred to as the
 "French Warmblood".

 The dressage topic dicusses breed characteristics and suitabilities 
 off and on throughout the topic, however the latest dicussions occured
 from .500 to .650 or so.

 There are plenty of warmbloods that jump. Any warmblood stallion that
 expects to pass stallion testing must be able to jump well. It's part
 of the standards that horse must meet before it is allowed to breed 
 to any registered mares and have the offspring be registerable. If you
 contact any of the warmblood registries (especially the Hannoverian)
 they will be happy to tell you what their stallion testing criteria is.
 It is very rigorous testing and only the best horses pass. They not
 only judge athleticism but also temperament and tractability. I have
 heard some criticism of the testing process in that some require that
 stallions complete the test before the age of six (or even younger), 
 and that it puts some young horses risk because they are more easily
 injured trying to complete such a test at that age, before they fully 
 mature.

 I suspect that the reason your friend's warmblood seems klutzy over fences
 is that some very athletic horses don't jump well until they start jumping
 fences over 3'. And they need to be started properly over fences as well.
 If I was to buy a warmblood, even if I just intended to use it for dressage,
 I would beware of a horse that couldn't jump. It would indicate to me an
 unsoundness or conformational defect of some sort. That being the case, I 
 would expect it to be priced accordingly (much) lower.

    An ex-boarder had a warmblood at my barn last year.  THe horse was 
    skitzo!  To ride him was almost impossible, he was so lazy and stiff,
    that once you asked him to do anything, he go into a bucking frenzy -
    and it was the type of frenzy to hurt someone.
    
    This horse didn't have any papers, so I think the girl got sold a bunch
    of lies.  This horse was supposed to be some sort of lower level
    dressage horse......this horse couldn't bend!
    
    I saw some pictures in the Pedlar of Carol Lavell(SP?) and Gifted, he
    is a magnificant warmblood!
    
    There is also a Black and White Pinto warmblood stud (hanoverian?) 
    named Domino who I really like too!  Anyone know of him?
    

  If he's the horse I'm thinking of, I think he's a Dutch Warmblood, Michele. 
  There is a place breeding paint coloring into Dutch Warmblood lines.
  The photos of these horses in the USDF bulletin and other places are 
  impressive enough to make me want to see one in person, and I'm not
  especially interested in paints. If a picture is worth a thousand words 
  then seeing the horse has got to be worth worth 10 thousand! :^)
  

    
    	OK!
    
    So now this is what I have guessed is what everyone is saying. 
    Warmbloods are a registerable breed under certian breed
    names...ie.Hanovarian, Trahkaner, Dutch Warmbloods, ect.......
    The warmblood is made up of a "hot blood" and "cold blood" horse.  The
    US horses being the "hot ones"?  This is where I get confused.  I was
    thinking it was like Running Quarters are Quarter Horse / Throughbred
    cross; Anglo Arab is Arabian / Throughbred cross.  Now are Arabs
    concidered "hot".  Most of the ones I have been around seem that way.
    	Then again, does the Term Warmblood actually describe temperment.
    
    	I hope this is confusing to someone else besides me.
    
    
    virginia

    I saw this picture in Equus, I think, and yes he looks awsome!
    
    If I got more serious with the dressage (well as far as the Pinto club
    goes), and if Domino throws color, I would seriously consider breeding
    my mare to him.
    
    

    Although I'm basically a dressage rider and Kiirja's basically a hunter
    rider, I agree that a horse that cannot jump moderately well will not
    do for dressage,especially the upper levels. Both disciplines require
    the horse to round(bascule) its back and get its hindquarters
    underneath itself("engage" the hindquarters) by flexing the joint
    between the spine and the pelvis. If a horse can't do that, it won't be
    good at ANY athletic discipline whether it's cutting, reining, jumping
    dressage, 3-day eventing or barrel racing! (I'm sure I left out a few
    but you get the idea :-)

    VI,
    
    You getting close. The "hot" blood however does not come from the US.
    First and foremost, the Thoroughbred was developed in England. It has
    since spread throughout the world with major breeding centers in
    England, US, France Germany, Australia, New Zealand, etc. 
    
    The Middle Eastern horses like the Arab are considered hot blooded and
    they served as part of the foundation stock of the TB. By hot blooded,
    I mean spirited and active. The TB and Arab stock are introduced into
    the Warmblood lines to make them less coarse and less phlegmatic.
    
    I bristle when people make the illogical leap that the TB temperament
    came from the Arab/Barb/Turk lines that were introduced. This only
    shows their ignorance not only of TB history but of the Arab horse's 
    temperament. 
    
    The English and Irish had been racing at sprint distances for AT LEAST
    200 years BEFORE the Arab lines were introduced. Their sprint racing stock
    already had the temperament that some TB horses have and which gives
    the TB a bad reputation.
    
    John

The flashy Dutch warmblood stallion that you folks are talking about is Art Deco,
not Domino.

    
    	No, Domino is also an advertised pinto warmblood stallion.
    	I have his ad somewhere in my desk here....
    
    	

   
    I'm pretty sure the Paint/Dutch Warmblood I was thinking of is Art Deco.
    Now that Kathy has mentioned it, that name sounds familiar. Oh well!
    

    Art Deco is a black and white pinto, Dutch warmblood. He was showing
    at fourth level when I got to meet him...a very impressive boy with a
    pleasant temperment!
    

    Re warmbloods.

    Presumably what we here in England call "hunters" (i.e. Irish Draught/TB
    Shire/TB types) would be called warmbloods anywhere else, we just don't
    generally use the term except for non-English breeds?

    JJ.

    I'm guessing that the term "warmblood" is of recent origin -- unlike
    the horses it is used to describe.  I have a 50's or 60's vintage book
    of horse and pony breeds, and it is quite comprehensive, detailing such
    breeds and the Selle Francais, Oldenburg, Hannnoverian, Holsteiner,
    etc.  But there is no mention of a "warmblood" as such.  My feeling is
    that it was a term coined to describe the European horses bred
    specifically to do dressage and eventing.
    
    -ellie

    Now that you guyes mention it, I think it *was* Art Deco I liked.  I'll
    have to go looking for the add.  If Art Deco is the one I was thinking
    of, then Domino was another Pinto warmblood someone showed me.
    
    Regardless, one was real sharp, and the other- well the picture could
    have been better....

    RE: .4
    
    I agree that some horses just don't jump well over low fences. 
    My Trakehener Stallion, Different Drummer, (who was previously owned
    by Carol Lavalle) looks like he's sleeping over the low fences. The
    bigger the fence, the more he shows off!
    
    He has all the warmblood traits, intelligent, kind, big hearted, 
    big boned, great conformation. He does just as well at dressage and 
    is very forgiving when "I" make a mistake. I want to breed him to my 
    TB mare next year.
    
    Tina
    

    "Warmblood" appears to be a fairly recently invented word to justify
    adding a zero or two to the asking price of a horse without increasing
    its inherent usefulness. "Warmblood" and "Registered" fit in the same
    category as far as I am concerned. To those who are enamoured with the
    term "Warmblood", I describe my horse as an "Algonquian Warmblood"
    since he is a Percheron/Thorougbred cross from a urine farm in
    Eastern Canada.
    
    I prefer to consider each horse on its individual merits and discount
    all marketing hype.

    An owner at the barn I have a lease at has an Oldenberg
    mare from a jumping family.  She's 17 hands something,
    requires a custom saddle as nothing will fit her
    and has jumped 4'10" free schooling.  She's only 4 now.

    She's been bred to a stallion in Hamilton MA (can never
    remember the name), who is also known as a jumper.



    The black & white Dutch warmblood, I saw at the USET Festival
    was Art Deco.  With all the comments in here and other places
    about dressage judges not liking color I didn't think there
    was such a thing.  He is the first horse I can honestly say
    I thought was "pretty".

    I brought a videocamera to take some dressage tests and planned to
    only take a few classes in full to study later, but had to take the
    end of Art Deco's test.  Incredible looking horse.

    

    I want to thank everyone who has replied to this note.  After reading
    and digesting all the comments and detailed answers, I think.........
    	I'll go find a book on the subject.
    
    	Also, is there a national magazine that would have a picture or an
    artical on this Warmblood everyone has been writing about.  He sound
    like he is magnificent and a good example for me to look at and compare
    to.  \
    
    
    
    thanks soooooo much
    
    
    virginia

  Pick up the February issue of just about any horse mag (Equus, Practical
  Horseman, Chronicle (weekly mag), Hunter & Sport Horse, etc) and you'll 
  see page after page of glossy photos of warmblood and thoroughbred 
  stallions, and the requisite advertising hype about the horse and his
  offspring. You'll most likely find Art Deco in there, as well as several 
  pages from Iron Spring Farm (they have several stallions which they market 
  aggressively) and some local horses (well, local to me, not to you!) like 
  Moronjo and Bonjour. I'm sure you'll see there are plenty of 'fancy' 
  stallions out your way too.

    Kiirja,
    
    Is Iron Spring Farm the one which seems to have the first full page
    add in Praticle horseman every month (or was it Equus)?  That is the
    one I thnik I saw art deco advertised from.
    
    M

   The Iron Spring ads are very sophisticated in appearance and usually 
   printed in full color (very expensive ads!)...the recent ones have 
   photos of the horses inside very ornate picture frames, with the title 
   "Presenting the Iron Spring Farm Collection" or something like that. 
   
   I probably saw the Art Deco ad in Practical Horseman and/or the USDF 
   bulletin. It's probably in other mags as well. 

    One difference we're forgetting about between the various
    European warmbloods and the more familar U.S. horses
    is the 'tests' they have.  (can't think of the name for it).

    Anyway, the major breeding in the U.S. is concerned with how fast
    a horse can run or how high he can jump.  We will put up with
    a really nasty animal if he meets those two conditions.

    Those European tests attempt to rank horses on say dressage and jumping
    ability but also on conformation, rideability and temperment etc.


    The mare I talked about in .20 is branded because she "passed"
    I think her yearling test.  I think the brand is a circle or a triangle,
    maybe our noting eventer Kathy R can remember, Kathy has ridden Grace.

    Iv'e seen some pretty sad looking warmbloods without the brand.

    Of course the difference between a branded and not-branded warmblood
    might be the difference between $10,000.00 and $30,000.00 (or God knows
    what).

    Bill

  re: a few back
  
  I visited a farm in Middleboro (southern Ma.) a couple of years ago with a
  friend who was looking for a warmblood type horse.  The woman who owned the
  place had a bunch of pregnant draft mares in the field and couple of 
  youngsters that I rode while we were there.
 
  She told us that she used to live in Canada and that the draft/TB crosses
  were getting popular there, as well.  She did say that breeding these
  horses was a crap shoot.  She was never sure what she was going to get.

  I rode two of her youngsters -> both had excellent temperments, but one
  had a few undesireable flaws in conformation (too long back and too long
  pasterns), the other horse had almost flawless conformation.

  
  The friend I was looking for horses with finally ended up with a Dutch
  warmblood out of Sidora (Kathy Connelly's old dressage TB mare) and Rampal 
  (who, in my opinion, sires the best babies -> most of his babies that I 
  have seen look like Dad, and is he ever gorgeous!)

  Different types of warmbloods have different rules for formal registration.
  Even though my friend's horse is 1/2 TB, she could be registered as a full
  Dutch Warmblood (if she passes the Kur testing), due to the fact that her
  mom (Sidora) passed a breeding suitibility test for the Dutch Warmblood 
  Association and is registered in their books as having good enough confor-
  mation and movement.  I forget exactly what rating she was given.

  Other warmblood types might not allow the offspring of a TB/XX cross to
  be fully registered. 

    re .26
    
    Gee, could that have been John and Maureen Steel's farm?  They bred
    Canadian bred draft mares to their Thouroughbred stallion, and had some
    really nice horses.  I don't know if they are still in business;
    Maureen died of lung cancer a year or so ago, and I'm not sure if John
    kept the business going.  He had/has his own business as a farrier, and
    last I heard he was still shoing for the USET.
    
    -ellie

    I think it's spelled John Steil, and he still has Drafts (I
    see them in the field as I live 1/4 mile down the road (: )
    and still sells horses.  He has a youngster 3-4 yrs old, 
    1/2 Clyde for sale that my customer looked at.... 
    
    Lynne

    European warmblood breeds were made by crossing thoroughbreds and arabs
    with local draft horses.  They have been selectively bred for
    temperament, conformation, movement and athletic ability for several
    hundred years.  Registration depends on *type*, rather than
    parentage/bloodlines, which is why Ith (the arabian Kiirja referred to 
    several replies ago) was accepted for registry.  They are only
    allowed to be registered after testing.  Stallions, in particular,
    have to pass a rigorous test under saddle that lasts several days (or 
    weeks) and includes cross country and jumping.  Each European country
    tends to have its own national breed -- Swedish Warmblood, Dutch Warmblood, 
    Danish Warmblood, etc.  Except of course for Germany, who didn't know
    when to stop ;-) with Hanoverian, Trakehner, Oldenburg, Holsteiner etc.
    (named after the provinces in which they originated.  And except for
    Poland, who has their own version of other breeds ;-) (Polish
    Trakehner, Polish Arabian, etc). Of the Germany breeds, as a general rule, 
    some are more suited to jumping and some to dressage, but mostly I think 
    its more a matter of individual talent.  The German breeds also vary in
    size and type, eg Trakehners are generally lighter and warmer and
    Hanoverians heavier and cooler.
    
    Based on reading and personal experience, I'd be wary of "American
    Warmblood" experiments myself.  They can have temperament problems 
    because they don't always know "who they are."   With early crosses
    you really don't know what you are going to end up with and it takes a
    few generations to work out the kinks in any breeding program of this
    type.  
               
    On the other hand, I consider horses such as the Quarter Horse to be true
    samples of "American Warmbloods" since I've read that they were the 
    result of crossing t-breds and coldbloods back in the early days here. 
    Same with Morgans and some of our other breeds.

    Actually, I dispute the implications that Mary made about Warmbloods
    in the previousreply. Specifically:
    "They have been selectively bred for temperament, conformation,
    movement and athletic ability for several hundred years."
    
    That's simply not accurate. It was not until AFTER WWII that the German
    breeds that we now call Warmbloods were intensively bred with sporting
    activities in mind. So, it has only been the last 45-50 years that the 
    German breeds have emphasized breeding sport horses. And they did that
    to insure the survival of their breeds! The horses were no longer
    needed for their previous uses!
    
    Breeds like the Hanoverian, Trakehner, Oldenburg, Holsteiner were 
    originally used as carriage, artillery and cavalry horses. The individual 
    studs bred whatever the local prince, Kaiser or what have you told them 
    to breed. And for the most part, they bred heavy carriage horses. I am NOT 
    talking about draft horses the size of the Percheron, Shire or Belgian. 
    They were more like the Cleveland Bay but perhaps even somewhat heavier. 
    In other words, 16-17H horses in the 1200-1400 pound weight range.
    
    In fact, Germany used such horses as an important part of its freight
    transportation system until the end of WWII. That's one reason that the
    Nazis "drafted" all horses that weren't breeding stock. They needed
    them to transport supplies for the military. Throughout WWII, Germany
    transported more military material by horse drawn wagons than the did
    by motor vehicle.
    
    John

    I stand (actually sit) corrected.  I could swear that I have read that 
    they were selectively breed for at least a couple hundred years -- not 
    for sport, but for temperament, conformation, etc.
    
    Mary

    What book(s) is this information in and where (in the So.Cal. area) can
    they be found.  There is a great library At Santa Ana Feed and they can
    get almost any book as long as you have the title and author or
    bublishing company.  So, if any one has the spacifics on some books, I
    would apreciate it greatly.
    	
    I used to be interested in Peruvians, QH, TB, and crosses there of.  I
    now would like to read up on the Warmbloods.  Breed origins facinate me
    and I try to read up on as many as I can get a hold of.
    
    
    
    Thanks in Advance
    
    
    virginia

    Mary,
    
    Sorry if I was a bit harsh. I didn't mean to be. I'm sure you didn't 
    create the myth! Actually, I'm sure you have read/heard that the German 
    warmbloods have been bred for centuries to certain specifications. That's 
    the propaganda that is commonly put out.
    
    For instance, there was a short segment on the TV show 'HorseWorld' a
    couple months ago about Oldenburgs. They laid out a bunch of claptrap
    about Oldenburgs being bred for centuries for showjumping and other
    equine sports which just isn't accurate.
    
    John

    re .32
    
    I've never seen a book specifically devoted to the origin of the breeds
    collectively labeled "warmbloods", but there *might* be one out there! 
    What you might do is to look in "Books in Print" -- probably available
    in a local bookstore -- in the "subject" category, or the "titles"
    category, for things like warmblood, horse breeding, etc.
    
    Of course, it may be that just such books are available in great
    variety and supply  -- only in German!  or Dutch, or French....
    
    Good luck,
    ellie

    Oh, sure John!  Decide to be nice, apologize, and steal my thunder!!!  
    Hrumph!  ;-)
    
    Ahem.  Last night while watching olympic diving, I got a little bored and
    pulled out _The Observer's Book of Horses & Ponies" by R.S. Summerhays,
    copyright 1948 and 1961. 
    I quote:
    
    TRAKEHNER
    
    "....The most prominent role in the foundation of the East Prussan breed
    was played by the Trakehnen Stud, founded in 1732 by Frederick William I
    of Prussia (father of Frederick the Great), who supplied both the land
    and the foundation breeding material, partly from Royal Studs and
    partly by importation of many high-class Arabs from Prince Radziwill's
    Stud at Taurogi, in Poland.  Trakehner horses soon became the pride of
    German horse-breeding, and Trakehnen Stud becam the "pepiniere" of the
    East Prussian breed....
    
        "In the Trakehnen Stud the service period was towards the end of
    November and foals were left with their dams until four and a half
    months old.  As three-year-olds they were sent to the training
    establishment, which was on the spot, where they remained for a year. 
    When they were four-year-olds they were submitted to trials which
    included hunting with a pack of hounds and cross-country races, the
    obstacles being fences, banks and open ditches.  The best ones were
    retained for breeding in the Trakehnen Stud...."
    
    
    HOLSTEIN
    
       "Another very good German breed, suitable for both riding and
    driving, is the Holstein Horse, whose Andalusian origins (and oriental
    according to some believers) is supposed to date back to the 13th
    century.  The horse was bred on very good pastures of alluvial origin
    on the right bank of the River Elbe, which were very suitable for
    providing a powerful animal, and in the 16th to 18th centuries this
    breed was in high esteem not only at home but also abroad, paticularly
    for expert to France.  The breed fetched good prices and was experted
    in large numbers, but afterwards it deteriorated.
    
       "According to E. Iverseon's "Abstracts of Animal Breedking," March
    1939, p. 6, 'Das HOlsteiner Pferd, 1937':
    
       "from 1825 onwards a reorientation of breeding took place,
    particularly owing to the introduction of the Yorkshire Coach Horse. 
    The resulting compact conformation combined with a satisfactory gait
    proved successful, and an increased demand for Holstein horses again
    caused a serious dearth of breeding of uniform quality.  This led to
    the organisation of breeders and of the central stud at Traventhal..."
    
    
    HANOVERIAN
    
    "The Hanoverian breed, as it is known today, is a comparitively modern
    production, owing its origin to the influence of our own Hanoverian
    kings, who, from the time of George I down to 1837, took a great
    interest in the horse of their native Hanover and sent many English
    Thoroughbreds to cross with the existing German breeds.
    
      "These breeds were spring from the German Geat Horse o the Middle
    Ages....
    
      "With the advent of gunpowder and the disappearance of armour the type
    had to be modified again, and German breeders developed the 17th and
    18th century light and heavy cavalry horse, falling into three main
    groups -- Hanoverian, Mecklenburg and Danish.
    
      "This old Hanoverian breed was then, as we have seen, interbred with
    the English horses sent over by the Hanoverian Georges, and had finally
    disappeared by about the middle of the 18th century, to be replaced by
    the modern Hanoverian, a close and direct descendant of the famous
    fathers of the English Thoroughbred, the Darley and Godolphin* Arabians
    and the Byerly Turk."
    
    *I have read in other places that Godolphin may have been a Barb, not
    an Arab.
    
    OLDENBURG
    
    He doesn't give a history of the Oldenburg, therefore I assume it is a
    more recent production.
    
    SWEDISH, DANISH, etc.  He talks generally about natives horses of combined
    local draught and German warmblood breeding used for both light farm
    work and under saddle.  (Kris Bobo told me that when she bought Kyrie
    she was able to see his mother on the farm.  She was "walking down a
    dirt road, pulling a plow, with a tiny boy riding her bareback with a
    halter and leadshank, and with a foal at her side!)  He mentions that 
    initial attempts in Denmark to create official breeds complete with 
    studbook records took place around 1900. 
    
    GELDERLAND
    
    "Horses of this breed, which derives its name from the Dutch province
    of Gelderland, where breeding is still carried on quite extensively,
    originate from a very old native breed which was crossed many years ago
    with such stallions as Enslish Thoroughbreds, Norfolk Trotters,
    Holsteins and Anglo-Normans.  During the past few decades, the main
    consideration has been consolidation of type, with very remarkable
    results, for the breed has greatly improved of recent years, themoder
    horse being wide and deep, yet of beautiful build, with a very stylish
    action.  A docile arm horse and an excellent saddle-horse, it is
    claimed to be an unsurpassable show horse in Holland.  In the past
    several Royal Studs, including Great Britain's have been regular buyers
    of these horses."
    
    ANGLO-NORMAN (he doesn't mention the Selle Francais, which I guess is
    the breed mentioned to me 20 years ago by my French college roommate. 
    She raved about the native French horse which was like a German
    warmblood but lighter and more brilliant.  She didn't tell me the breed
    in French, but said that it didn't translate literally and the closest
    she would call it was a 'Frenchblood.'  Anybody know any history of the
    Selle Francais?  Perhaps it was formed from the Anglo-Norman.)
    
    "In the origin of this breed we find as the foundation, a Norman horse
    which was a powerful and enduring animal, and very much appreciated in
    those times as a war horse.  William the Conqueror is said to have
    brought to England a large number of these horses, which did much good
    in improving the English native horse.
    
      "In later times the Norman horse deteriorated by careless crossing
    with the Danish and Mecklenburg cart-horse, and since 1775 Arabs and
    English Thoroughbreds and half-breds were used.  Between 1834-60 a
    large admixture of Norfolk trotter blood gave origin to the
    Anglo-Norman trotter....Besides this group fo trotters there are two
    main types of Anglo-Norman: first the draught type, standing from 15.2
    to 17 hands with a strong admixture of Percheron and later of
    Boulonnais blood....Secondly, there is the cavalry type, which was much
    used in the army and for sport....Normandy is also a great breeding
    centre for racehorses, wherein past days "Capucin" and many other
    prominent racehorses were bred, as was "Bois Roussel," winner of the
    1938 ENglish Derby."
    
    

    Yo Mary!
    
    I did the same thing with a different book, "The Encyclopaedia of
    The Horse" which gives a hort history of the breeds.
    BTW, I didn't say the breeds weren't old just that they hadn't been
    bred for athletic ability until after WWII. 
    
    
    According to "The Encyclopaedia of The Horse":
    
    
    Trakeheners were cavalry and light farm horses. Arab stock was
    introduced in the 19th century but by the early 20th century 80% of the
    mares were half TB.
    
    Oldenburgs are the heaviest of the German warmbloods and were founded
    in the 18th century on Friesian stock as a heavy carriage horse. They
    later introduced Dpanish, Neopolitan, TB, CLeveland Bay, Norman and
    Hannoverian stock.
    
    Hannoverians were founded by the House of Hannover (King George of
    England to be precise) as all round riding, driving and light draft horses.
    Since the mid-1940's they have concentrated on athleticism for
    competition.
    
    Holsteins - Heavier version of the Hannoverian. Originally used for
    coach horses and tiding horses. Based on 14th century war horse(you
    know the ones that had to carry all the armour) stock.
    
    So, it seems that our sources are consistent except that yours didn't
    cover Oldenburgs
    

    About the request for books on warmbloods:
    
    I looked in the catalogs for 2 great book dealers and found some you
    might be interested in. Of course, the dealers are on the east coast
    but I'm not and I do business with them all the time. I assume you have
    access to a telephone and UPS and/or US Post Office will deliver to
    you. See the books note for their phone numbers.
    
    Robin Bledsoe(cambridge MA) carries
    
    "The International Warmblood Horse" $39.95
    A world wide guide to breeds and bloodlines. It's described as a 1
    volume guide in ENGLISH to Trakehners, Hol, Han, etc from Europe,
    North America, Australia and New Zealand.
    
    The Coach Horse: Servants w. Style. $10 Discusses HANNOVERIANS, OLDENBURGS,
    Friesans and Cleveland Bays
    
    The Heavenly Horses $8 Hungarian Warmbloods
    
    Stallion Book of the Holsteiner Warmblood Breed $20 VOLUME 2
    
    
    Knight's Equestrian Books carries:
    
    "The International Warmblood Horse" $39.95 same as Robin B's shop
    The Trakehner         $24
    The Hanoverian        $24
    The Flight of the East Prussian Horses (Trakehners) $17
    
    
    That oughta be enough to break your book budget for this project
    
    John

John,

I think the term athletic ability is too general, since I think just about
all breeds of horses are intended to be athletic.

Based on your own excerpts, I think its fair to say the warmbloods _have_ been
bred for athletic ability for 100's of years. I think any breed that's been 
"bred" for the 

	- cavalry                 (Trakehner)
	- all around riding       (Hanoverians)
	- 14th century war horse  (Holsteiners)

has been bred for athletic ability.  

I interpret your own excerpts in a way that fully supports Mary's statement
that warmbloods "have been selectively bred for temperament, conformation, 
movement and athletic ability for several hundred years."

But if you mean warmbloods have only been bred with 'sporting' in mind,
then yes, its not been a couple hundred years yet.  

Melinda

    Hey Melinda, ya beat me to it!
    
    Dressage was practised by the cavalry as a way to make the horses more
    maneuverable during battle.  Even the Spanish Riding School and the
    school at Saumur originally were formed to produce war horses.  There
    were numerous other cavalry schools around (eventually even in the U.S.) 
    -- those two are simply the only the lasted.
    
    During times of peace and prosperity, these same horses were used for
    sport.  Ballet performances at the Spanish Riding School, hunting,
    racing and general riding.
    
    What happened after WWII is *not* that the Europeans suddenly switched
    to breeding for sport, but rather that breeding that was originally geared
    towards the cavalry, farmwork and general riding was narrowed totally
    to sport.  Mainly because machines replaced horses on the battle field
    and, in some cases (but not Kyrie's mom!), in front of the plow.
    
    Mary

    Melinda,
    
    Until I read your final line, I thought you had misunderstood me
    completely... Yes, I do mean that the Warmbloods have not been bred as
    SPORT horses until after WWII before that they were UTILITY horses. 
    
    I was trying to show that for the most part, the Warmbloods were coach
    and light draft horses which could also be ridden. However, you have only 
    selected the bits of what I said that reinforce your interpretation! 
    
    What I said was that the Trakehner was bred for cavalry and LIGHT FARM
    WORK, the Hannoveraner had been bred for ALL ROUND USES(riding,
    carriage AND DRAFT), and that the Holsteiner was bred for as a heavier
    version of the Hannoveraner intended for coaching and riding. In 
    14th century Europe, a war horse was a large lumbering beastie and not
    a nimble sport horse.
    
    Re: warmbloods having "been selectively bred for temperament,
    conformation, movement and athletic ability for several hundred years."
    
    As you point out, those are imprecise terms. One could say the same of 
    the Percheron or Clydesdale. My basic "beef" is that people INTERPRET
    such statements to mean that the warmbloods have been bred as SPORT
    horses for hundreds of years and it ain't true!
    
    In fact, the Morgan qualifies by your definitions! The breed has been
    selectively bred for temperament, conformation, movement and athletic
    ability for several hundred years. It was/is an all round riding,
    driving and light draft horse. It has had a registry for over 100
    years. They were used as cavalry horses. Entire regiments were mounted
    on Morgans during the Civil War and Morgans were BRED by the US Government 
    AS cavalry horses until the cavalry was completely mechanized in the late 
    40's or early 50's(OK OK, I know they still have a token cavlary squad for 
    demonstrations but besides that they're mechanized). But, I don't see you 
    assuming that Morgans are outstanding sport horses!
    
    Why? Simply because it's no more true for that breed than it is for any
    of the others mentioned here.
    
    On this point of temperament, I'll repeat what an old horse farmer told 
    me. He said something like, "Draft breeds have a reputation for good 
    dispositions. It wasn't always that way. It used to be that when you 
    couldn't get along with a nasty old mare, you bred her and left her in 
    the pasture to raise foals. When the tractor came along, people only kept 
    the kind ones. Those nasty kinda horses went for dog meat."
    
    One could say the same about all breeds. When machines took over the
    work of the horses, the temperaments improved because people could
    afford to be pickier.

    Gee,  
    
    	I may not have to get those books if the conversations stay as
    informative as they have been.  I just wish we could all be in the same 
    room discussing this topic. 
    Anyhoo,
    
    	Do you have the Addresses for the places you mentioned?  Even
    though they are on the East coast, if I can't find anything here that
    may be my only venu. 
    
    Thanks so much
    
    keep up the discussion, I find it very interesting
    
    
    virginia

    Yes, John, in the 14th century the war horse (except for arabs) was a
    lumbering beastie who could carrie heavy armour.  But in the 4 1/2
    centuries immediately following the war horse was much more like a good
    sized hunter (say, an Irish).  And in those 4 1/2 centuries, many of
    the European war horses were trained in dressage.  The schools that
    exist today were originally created to produce army horses.
    
    And in between (or maybe during) wars, the aristocracy (who were the
    primary breeders and keepers of studbooks) hunted and raced.  Sure
    sounds like sport to me!
    
    Mary

John,

>But, I don't see you assuming that Morgans are outstanding sport horses!

>Why? Simply because it's no more true for that breed than it is for any
>of the others mentioned here.

Right, its no more true to assume one particular example of a Morgan will
become outstanding over another particular example of one of the warmblood
breeds.   (I had to reread what you said to make sure you weren't saying
that I dislike Morgans...)

I think I know why this topic is always an active one (God knows we dwelled on
it long enough off and on in the dressage notes).  Many of us have had
what we consider a terrific horse who was not a warmblood.  So we naturally
feel a little annoyed when people make blanket statements about how wonderful
warmbloods are.  And John, I think your points are well taken about how
people back up these 'blanket statements' about warmbloods with further
blanket statements about their history, when its quite possible their 
warmblood's dam wore army boots.   :^)

Melinda

    Re addresses for books shops:
    See notes 374.8 for Knight Equestrian Books and 169.18 for Robin
    Bledsoe's address.

    Mary,
    
    If you really believe that the class-oriented peoples of the
    Renaissance and Baroque periods trained the common cavalry trooper and
    his mount in anything more than the rudimentary skills of riding,
    I've got some nice land in Florida near the Everglades for sale! ;-)
    
    Even in the late 19th and 20th centuries, only the OFFICERS had any
    extensive training in the finer points of horsemanship. You don't have
    to take my word for it either! Just pick up ANY cavalry manual(even
    Gordon Wright's modified version of the US Cavalry manual) and you'll
    see that they taught basic skills to the common trooper. If I remember
    correctly, Wright's manual says something like "diagonal aids are not
    discussed in this book as their use belongs to ADVANCED equitation." I
    have yet to meet a dressage rider who did not use diagonal aids.
    
    You also mention the horsemanship schools that the armys of Europe
    created. True, they still exist. But, they were basically only
    available to officers and occassionally sargeants from remount facilities 
    until recently. 
    
    In the days when the military chose the equestrian teams, did you ever 
    hear of them asking a trooper to ride? They were always officers. Here
    in the late 20th century US that sounds absurd but it's the way it was.
    
    
    John

    Melinda,
    
    That's very close to the heart of the matter! What really ticks me off
    is the illogical leaps people make based on such blanket statements
    about warmbloods....e.g. "Only Warmbloods are good for (substitute 
    your favorite equine sport) because they've been bred for it for 
    centuries." 
    
    It ain't true. As you point out, the Warmblood's Mama wore combat boots
    or pulled a cart/plow! They were utility horses until forward thinking 
    breeders(mostly Germans) saw that sport riding would be the only hope of
    their horses' long term survival. Therefore, they concentrated their 
    breeding and testing programs on suitability for sport.
    
    To verify that these breeds were developed AS SPORT horse breeds after
    WWII, all you have to do is look at one of the book references I gave.
    I refer to Holsteiner Stud book VOLUME 2 which was just published in
    1990. If they're just getting around to volume 2 of their stud book,
    how long do you think they've been keeping good records and testing?
    
    The TB stud book must be up to about a GILLION by now as it was founded
    200 years ago. The Morgan stud book was somewhere around Volume 20 the
    last time I noticed. So the myth that warmbloods have been bred for
    their current type, etc for hundreds of years just doesn't withstand
    scrutiny.
    
    Don't get me wrong. I have no grudge against warmbloods. In fact, I
    think those working with other breeds could learn TONS about sport
    horse breeding from looking at what folks have done for warmbloods.
    The only thing that bothers me about warmblood breeding is that
    the aren't trying to maintain separation between the various breeds.
    Trakehners are approved as Holsteiner studs, etc. I think that blurring
    of identity is why most people just say "It's a warmblood" rather than
    "He's a Trakehner."
    
    My gripe is that people make crude generalizations based on a lack of
    knowledge and then extend their illogic even further.
    
    John

    John,
    
    You can keep your land!  I don't argue for a moment that only officers
    got dressage training.
    
    Also, on your point about them not keeping the breeds "pure," my
    understanding is that they breed for type.  So if a hanoverian is born
    that is built like a trakehner, moves like a trakehner and acts like a
    trakehner, its a duc...er, trakehner.
    
    I suspect at this point that we're pretty much in agreement, overall.
    
    Mary

    Off and on throughout this topic, we've speculated on the origin and
    vintage of the term Warmblood. Most of us thought it was of fairly
    recent vintage as we had been familiar with some of the breeds now
    called Warmbloods long before we ever heard the term.
    
    Well, apparently this term has been around for 40 years or more! In the 
    "International Horsemanship Dictionary" taht I talked about in note 10,
    I found the German terms Vollblut (for the English Thoroughbred) and
    warmblut referring to a type of horse that had been crossed with the
    TB. Since the book was originally published in 1955 and hasn't been
    changed, this suggests that the term "warmblood" was well established
    in the equine world when the author was compiling the book in the
    early 50's. 
    
    While they original word could easily have described Appendix
    registered Quarter Horses, it is basically the testing programs which
    distinguish warmbloods from crossbreds. Some of the testing programs
    are pass/fail and others are graded...sound like school? It is! Would
    you rather go to a Doctor who was near the head of the class in Med
    School or the one who graduated last? It's the same with the horses
    some are Premium or Elite and others just approved. Which one is likely
    to sire the better foals?
    
    That's what I think we can learn from Warmbloods about producing sport
    horses in other breeds! 
    
    We could also learn something from racehorse breeders. They have known for 
    eons that you get a higher percentage of foals that win races if you breed 
    to a stallion who has sired winners(especially stakes winners) and they 
    keep all sorts of statistics on racing performance of a stallion's get.
    Similar statistics could be kept for sport stallions. Number of get
    competing at various levels in the driving, dressage, jumping, etc
    divisions. COmpare that number to the number of winners or average
    jumping faults per class/dressage scores/3-day penalty points or
    whatever to develop some meaningful stats on how a stallion's get are
    performing in various sports....
    
    
    Just rambling....
    

    That's really interesting that the term has been around for a while.  
    
    The idea of learning something from the race horse breeders makes sense
    too.  But there's a big difference in the fact that the stud book for
    Thoroughbreds is closed.  When I used to study this sort of thing I
    remember coming across the idea frequently that crossbreds -- whether
    graded or not -- can not be relied on to breed true.  In fact,
    frequently quite the opposite.  One of the "breeding theories" I've
    encountered is outcrossing.  The general scheme is to take two lines
    that are somewhat inbred -- and which therefore tend to breed true to 
    type -- and cross them.  The result is frequently larger, stronger, 
    and healthier than either line itself.  Some breeders call this
    "hybrid vigor" although the term hybrid is not of course strictly true.  
    (Except in mules...) The US cavalry used this method a lot in breeding 
    horses, but they did not use the resulting individuals as breeding stock, 
    because their offspring did not reliably pass on the wonderful 
    characteristics of the crossbreds.  I remember the quote from somewhere 
    on this subject that the genetic material in the crossbreds is "all over 
    the map".  I would guess it's harder to predict the outcome of a
    warmblood match than a thoroughbred match because of this.  My 
    stallion, for instance, a Bold Ruler grandson, was double inbred 
    (5 X 4 as I remember) and threw foals that were just about carbon
    copies of himself when bred to two mares with Bold Ruler lines.  His
    other two foals were outcrosses with an Argentine bred mare who had no
    ancestors in common in the past 6 generations.  And both of these foals
    were huge, big sturdy individuals.
    
    But of course, this is all fun stuff to think about and wonder about,
    but the old saying is true "Breed the best to the best and hope for the
    best"
    
    -ellie

    Maybe like most amatures I find I can get lost in those
    breeding stats in about 1 minute.

    The best listing Iv'e seen is from the U.S. Trotting Association
    which publishes a list of stallion stats as percents, as opposed
    to numbers.

    So for a given stallion, the % of offsrping to win at 1:55
    and then % to win at 2:00 is very different from the number
    of foals to win at 1:55 or 2:00.

    (The old standard is 2:15 but that is useless now days)

    Somestimes the stats are 'distorted' alittle if a stallion bred
    very few mares.

    
    Now jumping a 3 ft fence is to broad a standard, and an Olympic
    medal to narrow, but if one could determine the 'correct'
    national title, this stat can give you a pretty good idea
    about the 'odds' on a winning foal.

    Bill

    Hey Bill, I glad you mentioned Standardbreds in this context. The
    founders of the Standardbred Registry started performance testing over
    100 years ago! They did EXACTLY the kind of thing the Warmblood breeders 
    have been doing since WWII(i.e. accepting for registration/breeding only
    horses that meet certain criteria)
    
    Bill probably knows this but for the rest...When the Standardbred Registry
    was founded, they would accept ANY BLOODLINES as long as the individual
    could trot a mile in 2:30. I think there were some other standards for
    performance of offspring to register older horses but I'm not sure...But 
    that's how the breed got it's name. They were horses that were bred to a
    standard or Standardbred.
    
    After a while, they closed the stud book over the years a particular
    type developed. What ellie said about cross-breds not breeding true is
    exactly on the mark. However, the Standardbreds were predominantly
    Thoroughbred stock because few other types of horse could meet the
    standards. So, they breed moderately true to type and it was easier to
    establish a distinctive breed.
    
    John

    The standardbreds today are the result of a direct male line legacy
    from a purely thoroughbred horse who never raced on the trot and never
    had a son that did.  His name was Messenger, a member of the English
    Stud Book and the great grandsire of Hambletonian (which is now the
    name of the race that is the harness equivalent to the Kentucky Derby).
    Hambletonian had 4 sons, from which all present day trotters and pacers
    decend.  The origional standard for speed, was a base of 2:30 for a
    mile and was adopted by the National Association of Trotting Horse
    Breeders in 1879.  In 1882, John H. Wallaces American Trotting Register
    which preceeded the U.S. Trotting Association Sires and Dams Book
    assigned numbers to stallions to provide positive identification.  
    Hambletonian was assigned number 10, his sire, Abdallah was number
    1.  Messenger was foaled in 1780, and stood stud in 1785 for a fee
    of $15!!  
    
    When registering a standardbred in modern times, a blood test is 
    required both on the stallion, the mare when in foal, and the foal
    before it is eligable to race.  Thus proving that the offspring is
    in fact that of its parents.  

    Do you folks consider "warmblood" to be a derrogatory term? I noticed
    during the Olympic coverage that Jay Randolph generally referred to a
    horse as a "warmblood" when he said something negative. For example,
    during the XC phase of 3-day he questioned the ability of the
    "warmbloods" to get around the course w/ speed or to withstand the
    heat. During the jumping, he said things like "This horse is a
    typical coarse warmblood."
    
    When he wanted to say something nice about a horse, it suddenly became 
    a Trakehner or Hannoveraner(I prefer the German spelling over
    Hanoverian) or a Belgian bred or those "marvelous French-breds"
    
    Is it common to use the term to imply something negative or is that
    just his problem? 
    
    John

    While I'm here, did anybody notice that some horses "magically" became
    warmbloods or part warmblood after they became "famous?" I refer
    specifically to Canadian Beth Underhill's Monopoly and, his royal
    highjumpingness, Milton.
    
    When Beth Underhill first started showing Monopoly, he was generally
    referred to as a New Zealand Thoroughbred. Later, he became a New
    Zealand-bred and now he's referred to as a New Zealand-bred warmblood.
    Don't ask me which breed! I don't think they've decided yet! ;-)
    
    According to the book I read about Milton, somebody "recognized" that
    his sire was actually a warmblood(I forget which breed) after Milton 
    became famous. Before that time, the sire was considered a common
    garden variety jumper of non-descript breeding. In fact, Milton's
    dam(7/8 Thoroughbred) was later sold to a continental warmblood
    breeder. I'll look up the details if anybody cares.
    
    Perhaps, these are just examples of the "duck theory" that Mary mentioned 
    earlier in this series!
    
    John

    Re .54
    
    I think the term "Warmblood" for horses has the same negative
    implications as "BMW" has for cars. It's not the horses themselves, it
    was the people who bought them. If you were terrible concerned with
    your equestrian self-image, particularly in dressage circles, you just
    had to be riding a "Warmblood". Sensing a buck to be made some folk
    started importing German horses that had been given a quick school and
    sold them to those whose credit rating exceeded their horse sense.

  re: .54 (sort of)


  Well, I for one, was thoroughly disgusted with the hype and bullsh*t that
  was covered on NBC for the Olympics.  I started watching in the beginning,
  but after hearing sob story after sob story about the atheletes and their
  families and that fact that they showed more shots of Summer Saunders 
  modeling bathing suits than of the swimming races themselves, I refused
  to watch anymore.  Oh, and don't get me started on the "Dream Team".  
  There was no competition there whatsoever.  I got the feeling the only 
  reason those guys played was to make more money (ie; MacDonalds commercials,
  etc., etc.)  

  Most of all, the commentators were ridiculous.  I did sneak a peak at the 
  equestrian stuff (did they even show the dressage??).  I don't understand
  how the commentator could slam "Warmbloods", especially since the winning
  team all rode Dutch Warmbloods (my assumption).  As a fatter o' mact, I 
  think that a large majority of horses out there were some kind of warmblood.  

  Whew -> flame off -> I feel much better now.

  I'm sure most of you caught more of the equestrian event than I did.  How
  many breeds participated that weren't warmblood??  I think the bronze ind.
  medalist went to an American on a TB.  Also, I noticed that many of the 
  horses that did quite well were mares.
  
  /Simone
  

  

    As far as I know - Monopoly is as much a warmblood as my Anglo-Arab. 
    Having stood about 3 feet away for a VET check it does not show the obvious
    "traits" (perceived or whatever) of a WB, but stranger things have been
    foaled.
    
    Traditionally, the french ride Anglos on their show jumping team (or a
    variation there of).  I have a hard time thinking them of Anglo's has
    they are quite large.
    
    As for WB in eventing - they are few and far between at the top levels. 
    I've come across a few part WBs with a considerable amount of other
    stuff.  While no one doubts their athleteism (sp.), at the top they
    just don't have the speed.  Even at Preliminary events - in the
    steeplechase section you are expected to go 600-650 metres/min. about 
    (22 mph)
    
    Linda

    After reading all of these discussions about warmbloods, I would like
    to ask an additional question. Is a Canadian Thoroughbred a warmblood.
    Actually what is a Canadian Thoroughbred?  I supposedly own one and I
    don't really understand the definition of the breed. z

    I don't think so. From your description, it sounds like your horse is a
    Thoroughbred that happened to be bred/foaled in Canada. The
    Thoroughbred was originally developed in England and the horses were
    registered in "The General Stud Book". In the 200 years since the
    foundation of that registry, the Thoroughbred has spread throughout the
    world. Most countries which breed Thoroughbreds have one or more
    societies which maintain pedigrees on Thoroughbreds bred/foaled there.
    For the most part, these societies/associations honor each others
    records so that they can breed/compete in other countries as
    Thoroughbreds. 
    
    Over the years, the Thoroughbreds in each country developed different
    characteristics according to what local breeders valued. With the
    innovation of air travel, those international differences have been
    reduced to some extent because Irish Thoroughbred mares can be sent to
    American Thoroughbred stallions while American Thoroughbred mares are
    sent to England, etc. In fact, I recently read that some American
    Thoroughbred stallions were standing a "second" season to serve mares
    from Australia and New Zealand which have their Spring reversed from
    ours because they're in the Southern Hemisphere
    
    BTW, the most famous Canadian Thoroughbred of all time is Northern
    Dancer.

    
    
    	I foaled a mare who was a Northern Dancer daughter.  She was HUGE
    	and the sweetest thing on four hoves.

    The Canadian thoroughbreds I've seen are excellent -- they generally 
    have more substance and are a little quieter than their southern 
    siblings.  (Unless you go far enough south -- Brazilian thoroughbreds
    also have quieter temperaments and more substance.)
    
    Are they warmbloods?  No.  Thoroughbreds are classified as hotbloods.
    
    Mary

    Canadian TB are as -3 said.  They are registered with the Canadian
    Jockey Club.
    
    There is a discussion at the moment what consitutes a Canadian
    Warmblood.  As yet, nothing is written in stone.  It is like a Canadian
    Hunter (that is disappearing and the Canadian Warmblood is to take its
    place or at least that is the current thinking.)  At the moment it is
    very political and it is safe to say if your horse is any sort/part
    warmblood and passes some criteria (of which there is much discussion)
    it COULD be a Canadian warmblood.  The bottom line is no one knows.  I
    have been involved in some evaluations (as an observer) I haven't
    figured anything out yet either - soup to nuts has passed.  They are
    also thinking of bringing in the 100 day test (or variation there of)
    for stallions who are "passed" through the selection.
    
    Linda  

    Instead of Canadian Warmblood read Canadian Sport horse.  Oops!
    
    The one thing we are fighting is minimum height restrictions - which
    I hope are out.  It used to be 16 hh minimum - but this ruled out some
    Anglo Arabs, Running Quarter horses etc., who were performing outside of
    their "world" and winning top open championships.   So we'll see.

    Maybe we ought to rename this topic to be "What is NOT a Warmblood?"
    -;)
    
    Last week, I got some propaganda ...er I mean... promotional material
    from a group called Morgan International Sport Horse Record. It's
    headed up by the owner of one of the Morgan stallions that I mentioned
    in Note 10.634 that had gone to the 1991 100 day stallion testing for
    Warmbloods. 
    
    The Morgan International Sport Horse Record is encouraging people to
    send their Morgan stallions AND NOW MARES to the warmblood keurings.
    
    There promotional material says that 6 Morgan mares were sent to
    the 1992 American Hanoverian Society Inspection Keuring as guests of
    the society. The Morgan mares were inspected by the same jury of
    licensed sport horse inspectors from Germany that inspected the
    Hanoverians. All the Morgan mares received scores which would have put
    them in the Hanoverian Mare Book. In fact, 3 of them received Premium
    ratings! That's pretty good when you consider that these are smallish
    mares(14.2 H to 15.2 H) when compared to those the Germans are used to 
    looking at!
    
    I guess this is another example of Mary's "duck test" in an earlier reply.
    
    Anyway, I think it's a good idea that those interested in breeding
    sport horses send their stock to organized evaluations such as these.

    I REALLY think that we need a topic with a title something like "If
    it's on TV, it's probably wrong!" especially when it comes to
    Warmbloods.
    
    On a recent horse magazine format show, they did a segment on Cleveland
    Bays in England. While they were showing some really handsome stallions
    being shown in a conformation class, the host did a "voice-over" saying
    that the Cleveland Bay was based on Thoroughbred and Oldenburg stock
    blah, blah blah....
    
    Well, that didn't sound right to me. One of our former noters (Diana
    Hewson) taught me a bit about Cleveland Bays when we worked together.
    So, I dug up a book ("Cleveland Bay Horses" by Anthony Dent) and read
    about about the history of the Cleveland Bay breed.
    
    There was NO Thoroughbred or Oldenburg stock in the basic makeup of the
    breed. In fact, the breed has had a CLOSED stud book for over 100
    years! The Cleveland Bay ancestors were mostly a breed called the
    Chapman Horses bred in Yorkshire since medieval times(i.e. at least
    since the 1200's and probably earlier!). The Chapman Horses were cold
    blooded pack horses(remember that chapman means peddler..in those days,
    I think it meant merchant or dealer too); Bay with black legs ; strong 
    and durable but also active and quick. Around 1600, Andalusian and Barb 
    stallions were used creating a warmblood breed. The type was set and was 
    breeding true before the TB type had been established. The Chapman
    Horses became known as Cleveland Bays when a society was formed and 
    a stud book established in 1884. 
    
    In the days of the English mail coach, the Chapman Horses were found to
    be a bit too slow for coaching service on the roads. The Chapman Horses
    were crossed with TB's to produce the Yorkshire Coach Horse which was
    typically at least 3/4's Chapman.
    
    With Oldenburgs, it was in fact the other way round according to this
    book. Mr Dent sites evidence that MANY  Chapman Horses/Cleveland Bays
    as well as Yorkshire Coach Horses were exported to Germany especially
    to the Oldenburg region where they were valued as improvers of the
    local stock.
    
    After WW I when the Cleveland Bay population was depeleted from service
    in the war, the stud book was re-opened to admit Cleveland Bays of
    proveable pedigree which had not been registered earlier. At that time,
    they also admitted SOME Yorkshire Coach Horses with predominantly
    Cleveland Bay pedigrees which showed Cleveland Bay type.
    
    John

In the book on Cleveland Bays that I mentioned in Note 1646.66, the 
author, Anthony Dent, gives an excellent definition of the term warmblood.
That definition is quoted and expanded in the foreword by Alexander 
McKay-Smith. I'll quote that whole section of the foreword. Explanatory 
comments enclosed in [] are mine. 

My apologies for any typographical errors. Please remember that these are the 
comments of Mr Alexander MacKay-Smith not John's! (In other words, direct all
flames in his direction!) Alexander MacKay-Smith should not be confused with
his son Dr Matthew MacKay-Smith(who is medical editor of EQUUS). Alexander 
MacKay-Smith is a retired editor of "The Chronicle of The Horse", a breed 
historian and, I believe, an artist/art historian.

"He[referring to Mr Dent] begins: 'Cleveland Bays belong to a group of breeds 
known in many European countries as warm-blooded: by which is meant having 
their origins in a cross of hot-blooded Oriental or Mediterranean stocks(Arab, 
Barb, Turk, Andalusian, Thoroughbred) on the cold-blooded Northern European 
horse, such cross, however, being(frequently) of long standing.' Present day 
European warm-bloods illustrated by the German strains(Trakehner, 
Hannoveraner, Holsteiner, etc); of France (Selle Francais); of 
Poland(Wielkopoliska); of Hungary(Kisber, Mezlohegyes, Gidran); and of 
Russia(Budjonny, Don, Kirghiz). European warm-bloods were cultivated during 
the 19th-century cheifly for military purposes, as officers' chargers, as 
troopers mounts and as artillery horses. Since the armies of their respective 
countries have become mechanized, however, the European warm-blood breeders 
have accordingly revised their goals and are now producing horses, not for 
war, but for sport. To achieve these ends, they have not hesitated to bring 
in outside blood; close up crosses of Thoroughbred and Arab sires appear in 
the majority of present-day warm-blood pedigrees. So widespread has the use 
of Thoroughbred outcrosses become that a group of West German breeders with 
the backing of that country's largest periodical(Reiter Revue) proposes to 
join all their warm-blood strains under a single Stud Book(as the French have 
already done) and under a title such as "German Saddle Horse". This practise 
of using outside blood has unquestionably produced many excellent individuals. 
At the same time, however, it has produced a decidedly mixed genetic 
background. A breeder who buys a stallion wants him to be prepotent - to 
reproduce himself as to type, temperament, soundness and performance. 
Stallions of the present European warm-blood breeds cannot be relied upon to 
reproduce themselves solely on the basis of registration in their respective 
Stud Books - because of mixed ancestry their prepotence is not a breed 
characteristic, but can only be established for individual stallions through 
several crops of observable foals.

British breeders, however, have a far different point of view. Because they 
consider prepotence essential to any breed of livestock, for the past 
hundred years and more they have maintained Stud Books closed to outside 
strains. The first volume of the Cleveland Bay Stud Book was published in
1883, and no outside blood has been admitted since. Consequently, if a 
Cleveland Bay stud colt meets the buyer's requirements as to conformation and 
way of moving, the fact that it is registered in the Stud Book will virtually 
assure its prepotence - ita ability to reproduce itself in its foals."

    Reminds me of something I've wondered about for a while -- why not use
    both methods?  i.e. close the stud book, but also require testing or
    some other sort of certification for registration.  Then the
    not-so-good representatives of the breed would be weeded out, but the
    genetic pool would be concentrated by further breeding of approved
    stock, instead of diluted by admitting outside stock.  Are there any
    breeds that do this?
    
    -ellie

 RE: Previous discussion of color in Warmbloods

Article: 13174
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Path: engage.pko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!uunet!scorn!helen
From: helen@sco.COM (Helen Dilworth)
Subject: Re: Dutch Warmblood Pintos
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 04:07:25 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Nov22.040725.17829@sco.com>
References: <1emh15INNl3t@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Sender: news@sco.com (News admin)
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In article <1emh15INNl3t@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ae361@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sonya Paetzel) writes:
>
>I was skimming thru a magazine today (a breeding issue) and
>came across a breed of horse I have never seen before...
> a Dutch Warmblood Tobiano Pinto.  He's absolutely gorgeous!
>His name is DOMINO and he is black with white pinto markings.
>I was just wondering if anyone knows about these Dutch
>Warmblood/Pinto crosses.  Are they very common? 
 
 
I don't know how common they are, but several of the warmblood breeds
have considerably more "color" in their gene pools than one might expect
in "English style" breeds.  On a visit to Flyinge, the "national"
Swedish Warmblood stud, I was suprised to see that one of the mares
was a pinto and another was a palomino!  One of my Swedish foals, out of
solid parents, has a white spot on his belly that is big enough that
he could technically qualify as a pinto.  Also, stockings that reach way
above the knee/hock are not uncommon.
 
Both Domino and another pinto, Art Deco, are full bred Dutch
Warmbloods, NOT Warmblood/Pinto crosses.  Domino and Art Deco are both
by the same stallion, Samber.  I don't know anything about Samber's 
coloring, but it sure makes you think he might be a pinto, doesn't it?
 
Does anyone else know more about this?
 
Helen Dilworth
Trilogy Farm
Swedish Warmbloods

    I'm not an expert on the genetics of color in spotted horses but I do
    know a couple things: 1) genes for pinto type coat patterns are recessive 
    to solid coat color genes 2) piebald(black & white) and skewbald(other
    colors with white spots) coats originated in Europe NOT in the US and
    therefore the recessive genes MUST appear in the gene pools of various
    European breeds. For example, "The Pie" in 'National Velvet' is short for
    "The Piebald" and there are MANY Renaissance era paintings of court
    dressage horses which are piebald or skewbald. So the coat type has 
    obviously been known in England/Europe for a very long time.
    
    So, it's entirely possible that you could breed a solid colored
    stallion to a solid colored mare and get a piebald or skewbald foal IF
    both parents carried the recessive genes.
    
    FWIW, despite the fact that the Appaloosa breed was developed by the 
    Nez Pierce tribe here in the great NW, the Appy type coat patterns are 
    also found in European and even Chinese breeds which are much older
    than the Appy breed.

    We got a "new" catalog from a dressage specialty tack shop in CA.
    While thumbing through it, I noticed a couple books on warmbloods. One
    of them is an addition to the earlier list:
    	The Warmblood Guide Book by Charlene Strickland. $35
    "The most complete look at the European warmblood yet. Three parts 
    discuss the historical background of the breeds, details of European 
    breeding controls and selection and enjoyment of individual horse(how to 
    find and buy)."
    
    They also carry some of the books from the earlier list including:
    	The International Warmblood Horse" $39.95 
        The Trakehner         $23.95
        The Hanoverian        $29.95
    
    They have a toll-free number so if you want to see their catalog, they
    are:
    	Dressage Extensions
    	(800)541-3708

    After I entered .70 on spotted horses appearing in Europe long before
    the American breeds were developed, I looked through some books featuring
    old paintings as a sanity check. Here's what I found:
    
    A 1727 painting of Lipizzaner mares. Although the modern Lipizzaner are
    usually born brown and later turn gary/white, the 1727 painting shows a
    variety of colors; the standard browns, bays, grays and chestnuts as well 
    as less common coats like:
    	1. A palomino
    	2. A piebald
    	3. A grulla
    
    A book entitled "The Classical Riding School" which is collection of
    paintings from the mid-1700's showing advanced dressage movements
    including piaffe, passage and "airs above the ground". The paintings
    were done by Baron d'Eisenberg(a court riding master for the Hapsburgs)
    for the 10th English Earl of Pembroke. They are still displayed in the 
    Earl's family home, Wilton House. These paintings include horses with
    the following unusual coat colors:
    	1. piebald
    	2. skewbald
    	3. Appy "leopard" type spots on a white horse
    	4. Appy "blanket" type coat pattern.
    
    In those 250+ year-old paintings, one can see the genetic basis for all the
    flashy colors(palomino, dun, buckskin, pinto/paint, Appy, etc) which are 
    popular in the US. What makes you think European courtiers(who were 
    OBSESSED with looking good and making impressions) liked flashy mounts any 
    less than modern day Americans?
    
    John

You have to have a sense of humor about this horse thing...

Last summer I bought a three year old pinto.  His breeding was 'warmblood/quarterhorse'
His head is rather large, as is he (16-2).  His coloring is chestnut, two white rear 
socks, one front white stocking, one white front leg.  A white stripe goes from the
white leg over the withers to the other leg.  He has a black mane and tail with a
white streak thru his mane where the white strip goes over the withers.  A very
sriking boy! His name is California Dreamin' (CD for short, and sometimes Moose)

Now to the story...

We were at Weston this weekend.  Took him over Saturday during the horse show to
get him used to the noise and other horses.  Several people stopped to comment on him
with the most common question being "what kind of horse is he?"

On Sunday, we went over to compete in the dressage competition.  (introductory test 1)
and the questions started all over.  When I said 'warmblood/quarterhorse', everyone
wanted to know 'what kind of warmblood'?  That got out of hand.

So my buddies and I got together and suggested several types of warmbloods - Persian,
Russian, Canadian, Yugoslavian, etc (just cause every country seems to be coming up
with there own type of warmblood).  But the winner:

			Newfoundland Warmblood

The funny thing is - some people bought it!

By the way, we won the blue ribbon in our competition!

    
    I have a friend with a Quarter Horse that she shows in Dressage.
    
    She was at a show once and had just had a particularly nice test.  A 
    woman who had been watching came up to her and raved about how nice
    the horse was.  "What a gorgeous mare!  What type of warmblood is
    she?  Swedish?"
    
    To which my friend replied, "Nope.  Texas."
    
    (It was pretty funny at the time, anyways...)
    
    Amy
    

    I saw a similar incident at a show once about 8 years ago. The guy parked
    next to us had a Canadaian horse. I forget what the breed is called but
    it's one that was developed in Canada. 
    
    A woman rode up on her horse and asked the guy what the horse's
    breeding was. He told her. She said, "Oh! I meant who are his sire and
    dam! I thought he was Westphalian. My horse is Westphalian and I thought 
    I was finally getting to the point where I could recognize the breed."

    I get this all the time.  I have been asked why I ride a
    warmblood/dressage horse in western classes, why I ride a 
    thoroughbred in Gymkhana, why I ride a hunter in trail.....etc. etc.
    
    Answering that he is a Reg. QH goes right over their heads....
    

Maybe people should quit trying to pigeon-hole breeds to a particular type of
work and just enjoy what the horse is doing.....

My horse is young and has the potential(?) for dressage, eventing, and even
driving!  What he ends up doing will be what I enjoy...not what he supposedly
was bred for.

I love having an all-purpose horse - warmblood or quarterhorse or whatever! 

  I have an American TB off the track...  at various times people have asked
  if he is a 
	- Trakener  (sp?)
	- Arabian
	- Lippizan  (Ask Amy G., she was riding his 'airs above the ground' at	
		     the time...)
	and most recently, if he was a Pinto!  
	    (He's a very light flea-bitten grey with a steel grey 'continent'? 
             on his left haunches.)

  I agree with .-1... appreciate the athelete!  (Though knowing the breeds
  one prefers helps when its time to look for ones next partner.)

					-Caroline

    I have a case of this, too! A Standardbred mare (off the track). I have
    had to argue with people at times to convince them she is not a
    Thoroughbred....she's small, only 15 hh, and lightly built, everyone
    comments on my 'small but cute TB'. One woman even told me "she can't
    be a Standardbred, because she canters" and when I told her I had
    retrained her and that she rarely if ever paces anymore, her comment
    was "well, maybe she USED to be a Standardbred then"....liked I'd
    changed her breeding by making her a riding horse! :-)
    

    -.2  And American TB?  Is this used as a breed description now?  I know
    some call different types of TB's English.  Is there a difference?  Or
    is it only the pedigree?
    
    Virginia (Who's 21 year old TB track mare has never been mistaken for
    anything than what she is, an old craby broodmare.)
    
    

    I've heard a lot of people use the term American Thoroughbred.  I guess
    that, technically, if your TB is registered through the American Jockey
    Club, it's an American Thoroughbred.  But it also tends to mean the
    compact, more muscley, sprinter-type of Thoroughbred bred in the US,
    rather than the more rangey type bred, say, in Ireland or the UK.  At
    least that;s how I've heard people in those places use it...
    
    -ellie  

>                     <<< Note 1646.81 by INGOT::ROBERTS >>>
>                       -< Depends on Which Stud Book... >-
>
>    I've heard a lot of people use the term American Thoroughbred.  I guess
>    that, technically, if your TB is registered through the American Jockey
>    Club, it's an American Thoroughbred.  But it also tends to mean the
>    compact, more muscley, sprinter-type of Thoroughbred bred in the US,
>    rather than the more rangey type bred, say, in Ireland or the UK.  At
>    least that;s how I've heard people in those places use it...
>    
>    -ellie  


   Sprinter? Compact and muscley??  Not my guy!  ;-)  Definitely long backed.  

   I've encountered many a TB which do not fit that description (compact and
   muscley) and many which do.  One of the reasons for specifying American TB
   is that I've met a few folks who specify *where* a particular TB was bred:
   Canada, England, Ireland, etc.  I guess part of the surprise my TB receives
   is that he's a 'local' product.

					-Caroline


   P.S.  Personally, I'd expect an Irish TB to have more substance than an 
	American TB... not sure why, but I just do...

    Caroline,  that's my understanding to...that Irish, Canadian and South
    American thoroughbreds have more substance and also quieter
    temperaments.  American thoroughbreds (at least in the past) tended to
    be lighter built and hotter.
    
    mary

The picture that I carry in my head is that American TB's are HOT.  They are
realtively fine-boned and can be a real handful.  I picture Canadian TB's
to have a bit more substance, and be less of a handful to ride.  English 
and Irish TB's I tend to picture as 'coarser' versions of the canadian-bred.

re: American TB = HOT
	(Sorry, ;-)  I can't resist!!)

	I'll agree that my TB started out HOT... Now without sweetfeed (it 
   went *straight to his head*), he's silly, exuberent, bouncy, a show off,
   and (surprise, surprise!) laid back.

	He isn't a beginners horse by any stretch of the imagination, and one
   must have a sence of humor to appreciate his antics.  But, he's no longer
   *HOT* (thank goodness).

	Obviously, breeding, raising, and previous life-experiences affect a
   horses personality... I'm sure we've all encountered the exception to every
   generality.  Funny, but the more TBs I encounter, the more I find that are
   laid-back, silly horses...

					-Caroline

    I agree with Caroline, my TB is anything BUT hot. True, he has few
    'mental deficiencies' (doesn't crosstie, hates trailers and stall
    confinement), but they can be dealt with. He's fine for anyone except
    a rank beginner, one of the most laid back, easy to ride horses I've
    come across, will jump whatever he's pointed at, never rush or stop,
    real nice, quiet kinda guy. My Stdbrd mare on the other hand, is
    a real little witch under strangers, Im about the only one whose ever
    been on her and enjoyed myself, and from what I've heard, Stdbrds have
    a reputation as being 'quiet". :-) My opinion is that temperment is
    far more a matter of the individual horse and his/her past experiences
    than the breed. Just my two cents.
    

    ok ok ok OK.
    
    My mare is 21 years old and raced untill she was 5, was bred untill she
    was about 17, then was a backyard pet for 1 year, then was bought by a
    cowboy who bowed her on his first outing and was going to send her to
    the meat man.  We took her for free and got some background info on
    her.(That's how I know all of this)  If anything she is a California,
    American TB.  She was born, trained and bred in Hemet California.  She
    is not HOT either.  I wouldn't trust too many people to ride her (It
    just aint her thing) but my son will run around her, under her, pull
    her tail, drive his matchbox cars over her hooves and pull at her
    muzzle.  She just takes it. 
    
    On the other hand, we have a 5 year old QH that jumps when the
    automatic waterer comes on.  Go figure!
    
    Virginia

    Age and experience make a big difference!  However, the last few notes
    are why I qualified my comment that American thoroughbreds with "in the
    past."  They are actually my favorite breed to work with, partly because,
    handled quietly and with sensitivity, my experience is they will give 
    you everything they've got to give.  (And partly because I grew up
    riding thoroughbreds, including re-schooling young horses off the
    track.)
    
    mary

perhaps I should have qualified my earlier comments as generalizations, 
and not necessarily my convictions.  I would not be surprised if they are the
stereotypes held by the 'uneducated'.

I myself am the owner of a quarterhorse that tends to break stereotypes, right
Caroline??

    IN describing the American thoroughbred type, I didn't mean to imply
    that they were particularly sturdy.  But in racing circles, the sort of
    horse that is close coupled, with very muscley quarters, often a
    somewhat short neck is sometimes referred to as the "American type". 
    Irish Thoroughbreds, for instance, are quite different from this --
    generally with longer backs, longer necks, etc.  For those of you into
    "dosage" analysis, these sprinter types of thoroughbreds often have
    dosages over 5, and even up into the 20's.  My stallion is of this
    type, and has a dosage index of 7 -- definitely a sprinter type.  But,
    on the other hand he's not what I'd call light or fine either, having
    9-inch bone.  But it's the body type that I was referring to.  It's
    particularly frequent in the Bold Ruler line, which was prevalent in
    many of the top race horses around Secretariat's (Bold Ruler, out of
    Somethingroyal) era.  My stallion (a gelding now) is by a Bold Ruler
    son, and he himself looks like a carbon copy of Bold Ruler.  This is a
    nice, balanced conformation for a dressage horse or hunter, but not
    the optimum for long-distance races, so they say.  
    
    -ellie
    
    

    Ellie's absolutely right is her description of the American vs Irish
    Thoroughbreds and in her characterization of a sprinter vs a stayer.
    In fact, one the "strikes" against Secretariat being a Triple Crown
    winner was the fact that he WAS sired by Bold Ruler who was himself
    more of a sprinter type. Secretariat had the bulky compact build of 
    a sprinter too so folks questioned his ability to go a distance.
    
    I remember reading an article somewhere that reported a study of the
    muscle tissue differences between sprinters and stayers. The really
    have different muscle fiber types AND the fibers behave differently!
    The inheritance of the muscle fiber type is genetic. The sprinter
    muscle type has cells of shorter broader shape and fires quickly. The 
    stayer muscle type has cells of a long lean shape and fires slowly.
    
    This explains some of the difference in appearance between American
    Thoroughbreds which are bred emphasizing SPEED at fairly short
    distances and the English/Irish Thoroughbreds which are bred to run
    longer than their American cousins.
    
    The sprinter muscle type also seems a logical explanation of the
    original, bulky, compact shape of the ultimate sprinter, the American
    Quarter Horse.
    
    BTW, Secretariat had inherited BOTH muscle fiber types! His
    dam.Somethingroyal, was by the ultimate stayer and producer of stayers,
    Princequillo.

    Here's another one I've been meaning to cross post for months! Not
    intended to rekindle the Warmblood debate but it does indicate that I
    was not talking through my hat when I said that Holsteiners, Oldenburgs
    etc had only become "sport" horses since WW II...
    
From: kyle@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Kyle Karnosh)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 21:37:44 GMT

In rec.equestrian, drk@titan.ucs.umass.edu (Denise R Kim-Kusner) writes:

> To be a calvary horse I would think the animal would have to be a
> superb athlete.So I disagree with Germans breeding for sport
> horses only after WWII.Paraphrasing from Edward's "Ultimate Horse
> Book"( which is a grt book used in conformation and breeds class
> at U.Mass.) In 1732,Wilhelm I of Prussia founded the Trakehner stud.
> It quickly established a reputation for elegant coach horses...within
> 50 years,the emphsis shifted to producing army chargers and remounts.
> of quality unsurpassed in Europe. By 1913 most Trakehner stallions
> were throughbred.Actually,Wilhelm found the Royal Trakehner Stud
> Administration....The Order of Teutonic Knights established the
> Trakehnen studs.I think Dent might have gotten some of his
> dates wrong?   drk

I think the confusion here comes from lumping the Trakehner together with
the other German warmbloods. My understanding ( I'm sure someone will 
correct me if I'm wrong:-)) is that while the Trakehner Stud was mainly
supplying Calvary horses, most of the other Germany warmblood breeds were
producing more of a coach horse, one that could do farm work during the
week, pull the coach and be a pleasure horse at local shows during the
weekend. Part of the stallion testing used to be measuring the horse's 
feed effeciency, which is important for a work horse. After WWII, farming
became highly mechanized and there was no longer a market for work
horses. At this point the breeders changed their breeding goal to produce
what we now call a sporthorse. If you look at photos of the warmblood
stallions from that period, you can see that the type was changed quite
drastically in a relatively short period of time. The Trakehner, to my
knowledge, was never bred as a work horse, but always as a calvary or
riding horse, which gave the breed a significant advantage when the
horse market changed. Unfortunately, the majority of the breed was lost
in WWII ( but that's another story).

My 2 cents:-)


Kyle Karnosh
Con Brio Farms
Quality Warmblood Sporthorses
Gilroy, CA