Conference noted::equitation

	Paul Hebert of Fitchburg Mass...508-345-1275

	-Steve-

    
    Thank you re.1
    
    Chipper starts with the trainer April 1st!  He will have my horse for
    3 months and the cost is $375 a month.  That includes everything.  He
    also garentee's Chiper will be buck free when I get back.
    
    I will let you know in June how Chipper is.
    
    Louisa

    Having been this route before....Just because he can make him buck-free
    doesn't mean Chipper won't try it on you.  Make sure he gives you
    instructions also.
    
       

    I agree...work with Paul when he settles him out.  Paul can do it.  He
    has done a couple of tough ones for us.  He does a lot of trail
    work...like him a lot.
    
    Kathie
    

    
    Thank you, I do entend to work with Paul.  We are going to work out
    the details as the date gets closer.  I wish you all could meet this
    horse.  I really think Paul will meet his match.  I have worked with
    1yr 2yr old TB stallions and yearlings and ornary horses..but nothing
    compares to this beast. 
    
    eveyone I have had come up to see him all say the same thing "put him
    to sleep" and if Paul can not help..I don't know what to do.  but
    atleast he is not my problem...(he's my friend horse)
    
    Lou

    I hope Paul can turn this horse around for your friend.  If not there\
    are other alternatives to putting the horse down.  Most people think\
    it is a crule thing to do (more than death) but the Rodeo stock
    contractors pay a good price for good stock.  Your friends horse sounds
    like he has what it takes to give it to a few cowboys I know.  If this
    horse truley likes to buck and isn't doing it because of some physical
    problem he may enjoy being "bucking horse" as a profession.
    	It's better than putting him down, to me.  I hope this may have
    saved him.  I also hope he comes around first.
    
    		VLM
    

	I read things like "put him down" and "put to sleep". I had a problem
horse and ended up with $600 dollars for him at the meat market !

	There was a person that charged me $50 dollars to trailer him to Agawam
and I ended up with the money that night !

	Just another option I guess.

	-Steve-

    There is a difference between a "problem horse", which I consider
    any horse that is a problem to the point of being dangerous, and an 
    aged or non-curable injured "pet horse".  I have had my 8 yr old
    since he was 1.5 yrs old, and <diety> willing, hope to have him
    for another 20 yrs.  If luck doesn't go my way, then I will hire
    a backhoe when the time comes.....Unfortunately, not everyone has
    this option. 
    If I ever have to go the slaughterhouse route, then I will
    be the one to take him there, and put him through. It would be the
    least I could do for the horse I cared about....
    
    Too many stories about horses standing around in pens for days waiting
    "their" turn, no food or water, etc.....I'd make sure....
    
    Lynne

    
    UPDATE ON CHIPPER
    
    Paul Hebert had Chipper for 2 months.  He was able to "fix" him! 
    Chipper is a happy easy riding horse now!  Paul first changed Chippes
    Bit from a kimberwick to a egg but snaffle.  He made his nose band real
    tight and put on a standing martingal for a few weeks.  He rode w/a
    dessrage whip.  it's hard to expalin in type what he did, you had to
    see him at work...he got Chip to respond to YOU and made him use his
    hind legs..Chip allways work his frount...that is why he could buck
    going up hill because he never used his hind legs (cept for bucking)
    
    Chip will still buck from time to time..but they are normal bucks,  not
    rodeo bucks...chip is a very lazy horse and had to be taugut to work.
    he used his bucks to get out of working
    
    I was very happy w. Paul and would reccomand him to anyone w/ any type
    of triaing you needed.
    
    Thaks for the tip on Paul
    
    Louisa

    
    A friend of mine just recently bought a horse named Shamrock. She is 
    having a very difficult time in riding him. First of all he will not 
    stand still for her to get on or he constantly backs up not allow her to 
    get on and frequently he will not move at all. A little slap on the butt 
    with a stick or a more hard kick to the side will not cut it. Somedays
    he will let her ride but most of the time he will not. Any suggestions
    on these problems.
    
    I would like to be able to suggest some training book to her but I am no
    expert in horses. Any suggestions
    
    Also, would anyone have any ideas on what it would cost to bring a
    trainer into her home to help out with Shamrock. Her neighbor which is
    a trainer is asking $100.00 per week spending 2 hrs a day with Shamrock
    for 3 weeks. Is this a good price.
    
    Any help would greatly be appreciated by myself, Tammy, and Shamrock.
    
    I can see that both of them are becoming frustrated.
    
    
    
    Mary
     

    
    About the mounting thing - is Shamrock a tall horse?  I was helping a
    friend recently who had a similar problem with mounting, and I think
    part of the problem was that when she mounted, she was either pulling
    on his back or digging her toe into the horse's side, and causing him
    discomfort.
    
    I would try having your friend stand on something to mount him, like a
    bucket or mounting block.  Even then it may take some time.  I spent a
    lot of time with my horse, just standing on the bucket and patting him
    and talking to him before getting on.  If he moved I would get down and
    lead him back over to the bucket.  Pretty soon he learned to deal with
    it.
    
    One thing I did was to practice mounting and dismounting several times
    after the riding session, when my horse was more relaxed and not
    anticipating being worked.  I would mount and dismount three or four
    times, then pat him and put him away.
    
    What happens if someone holds him while she gets on?
    
    $100/wk for 2 hours/day sounds reasonable to me, but it's hard to say
    without knowing what sort of background/experience the trainer has.
    
    Good luck
    
    Amy

    A method I've used with great success to teach a horse to stand while
    being mounted is the following.
    
    First, make it easy on yourself and the horse during "mounting
    training" sessions by using a mounting block if he's tall and you're
    not.
    
    For the first few sessions, just get on him any way you can -- maybe
    have a friend hold his head.  Then after you are in the saddle, give
    him a carrot or other treat.  You give it to him, NOT the person
    holding his head.
    
    After a very few sessions, every horse I've ever tried this with has
    gotten the idea that a treat is coming soon, and there is no point in
    running off.  I also make the horse stand for a short while after I'm
    mounted, just so he gets used to the idea that having a rider on his
    back doesn't mean he immediately has to do something.
    
    I also always give the horse the treat from his right side.  I've found
    that this makes the horse expect to be bending in that direction soon
    and he will often start the bend while you are getting ready to mount. 
    This means he is bending toward you as you mount, instead of away from
    you, making the entire process easier.
    
    -ellie  

    Shamrock is not a very big horse. Ya see Shamrock doesn't want Tammy on
    his back. He knows when she is ready to mount. We have tried the
    carrots and having me hold him while she gets on. When she is by
    herself it only makes it more difficult because both of them get use of
    someone holding shamrock still. We also tried a wood stump, the fence,
    and the bucket and still he will stand still until she is ready to
    mount. Smart cookie.
    
    
    Mary
    

    From your description, it's not clear whether you are rewarding him
    *while* the rider is mounting or *after*.  It is really important that
    the horse does not get the reward from the person holding him.  If the
    rider who has just mounted gives the horse the reward, the horse has
    to turn his head around to get it, and thus stands still.
    
    -ellie

    When I first got Algiers back from being broken, he wouldn't stand
    still to be mounted.  The girl they had riding him used to practially
    leap on while he zoomed by.  It was pretty terrifying for me at first,
    since it had been several years since I'd ridden.  If someone tried
    holding him when I mounted, he would go straight up.
    
    I used a mounting block for the last year and a half, hopping on
    quickly and as lightly as possible, and letting him walk forward, while
    trying to keep him from bolting off. He did shoot out from under me
    once (on a very windy day) -- lucky the footing is real deep so it was
    like landing on a pillow.  And one time (the day they had a show)
    he bolted while I had one foot in the stirrup and one in the air.  I
    managed to grab onto enough of something to stay with him.
    
    By last spring, he seemed to get bored with the whole thing and started
    standing still to be mounted from the mounting block.  Then, this
    summer I started mounting him from the ground.  He's been fine ever
    since.
    
    Also, make certain also that you don't just plunk down into the saddle --
    that's real uncomfortable for the horse and can blow their minds as
    much as anything.
    
    Mary

    
    
    I have worked with a few problem horse myself.  I have found, like Mary
    said, that they just get tired of it after a while.  Also, if you are
    fighting him the entire time you are riding it make the whole
    experience bad for you and him.  So, when it is time to mount, he knows
    what is in store and just doesn't want to start.  I have always tried
    to make the ride as enjoyable for my horse and it is for me.  I had one
    horse who was impossible to mount without at least two people at his
    head and one at his rear.  He was an excelent hunter, he just hated to
    jump.
    	I started to ride in a western saddle and taking him on the trails
    and after about a month, anyone could mount him from the ground.  He
    turned out to be a great trail horse and has won many ribbons in trail
    events.  He just hated what he was doing before and didn't want to be
    mounted.
    	Just one expierence.
    
    
    			Virginia

    I've worked with several horses with this problem. They back fast or
    rear or step away as your mounting, they can be pretty determined.  
    You've got a lot of good suggestions here.  If she can't afford a
    trainer, tell her to just be patient and firm, it always takes longer
    to break a bad habit then you think it should.  Just when you think
    your getting nowhere, the dawn shines through. 
    
    It sounds like he's not a spooky horse, just very smart. He's got her
    figured, he's probably won a few times.
    
    Tell her to be firm!  Get his attention and respect. NEVER let him
    think he's won.  The way to never let him win is to never ask for more
    than your ready to enforce and he's ready to give.  
    
    So start with groundwork, (tack him up for this).  Ask for simple things
    he's already willing to cooperate with.  Things like walk forward,
    stop, back, pickup your feet, etc.  Demand _instant_ obedience, enforce
    your demands sharply.  Reward lavishly and then reward more.  Don't
    forget to use your voice.
       
    Asking for these simple things will get him saying 'yes',
    'yes'.  He'll learn he must obey, but it's easy and fun to obey.
    Do this a few days, putting him away with praise and grain.  
    
    When his head is so big it won't fit through the stall door, try
    your mounting again.  Try not to ask for more than you think he'll
    give, maybe you'll just want to put your foot in the stirrup a few
    times today, stay in the positive direction.  If you hit resistance
    now, a sharp word should get you through it.
    
    Be patient,
    Sharon

    I also had to teach my mare to stand still while mounting, otherwise 
    I'd be half on, and she'd be off and running.
    
    Our first lesson was for her to learn to stand square, like for a
    halter or showmanship class, or even for trail/ground tying work.  Once
    I knew she understood `stand', I started working on the mounting
    problem.  I would first square her up, issue the command stand, and try
    to mount (mind you, I did not have a helper available all the time)up.
    If she started taking off, I'd give her a smack on the neck, and
    re-issue the command stand, but in a firmer voice.  We continued this
    until I could get up and she was relatively quiet.  Once I was up, and
    she was relatively quite, I'd pat and praise her quite lavishly.  It 
    only took a few times till she figured out that she is supposed to stand 
    still while mounting and I let her know she can move out.  to this day, 
    I still praise her for being quiet. 
    
    I wish your friend luck, it can be frustrating sometmes.
    
    Michele

    If you are near the Fitchburg, Mass area, Paul Hebert is very good with
    "problem" horses.  He works with the owners as well.  Not sure what his
    rates are but they seemed reasonable at the time.
    There are others in this notes file who can attest to his work.
    I don't have his number but he must be in the book.
    
    Good luck
    
    Kathie
    

    Thanks for the advice on mounting. 
    
    The other problem Shamrock is having is riding. He will not move most
    of the time when she gets on his back to ride. Even with a hit on the
    butt with a stick or a hard kick. Unbelievable! Any suggestions.
    

    Shamrock sounds like he was never "trained" to me!  He doesn't
    know to stand still, he doesn't know to move forward when asked.
    It might be a good idea to start him all over again like a green,
    unbroke youngster.  (This is where 3 months with a good trainer
    would help a LOT!)
    
    Lynne

    How old is the horse?
    What did he do before he was purchased?
    Did your friend ride him before purchasing, and how did he go?
    Does he tie quietly for as long as desired?
    
    If he's young, and possibly green.  He just may not know what's
    expected.  We're breaking a 2 yr old filly now and she tends to balk
    whe askinf too much.  We're being very patient and urging her to do a
    little more each time.  SHe'll come around.
    
    It's possible the horse has been around and is very sour.  He may need
    a break from work and then a very firm and persistant rider and trainer
    to slowely urge hi back to work.
    
    It could be physical, teeth, ill fitting tack, lameness anything.
    
    what ever your friend decides to do, she must remember never let the
    horse get away with any nonsence.  Always make the horse do what you
    asked, even if it takes till midnite.  If she gives in, next time it
    will be much harder. 
    
    Michele

    As far as I know Shamrock is 5 years old. Tammy tried to eliminate some
    of the medical problems. He had his teeth done (which it needed) and he
    needed to be shoed and that has been done.
    
    I believe that its a lack of training or no training or improper
    training. He will ride only when he wants to which is very little.
    Also for the past month I would ride double afew times and just
    recently while we were at a gallop, he bucked.
    
    From the sound of it I do believe he is green and needs training badly
    from a professional which she can not afford in this day and age.
    
    In any case, the next best thing is a training book. Any suggestions.
    
    
    Mary
    

    Not to sound a note of doom here, but while there are a lot of good
    training books - is your friend able to actually do the training.  Does
    she have a sturdy ring with a fence that she can work in?  Does she
    have some of the proper equipment and would she know if the horse needs
    something she doesn't have?
    
    The horse sounds like a combination of soured/willfulness and poor to 
    little training.  If she has never trained before, this doesn't IMO
    sound like the sort of horse she needs to start out on.  She may not
    have much money, but can she afford a hospital bill or lost wages from
    breaking something working with this animal?  It sounds like several
    hundred dollars into a good trainer for a couple of months to at least
    get their take on it would be a wise investment. 
    
    A horse isn't just an oversized dog to be trained by a book, if *you*
    aren't able to have the follow through - I know I don't.  I was badly
    hurt once working with a soured horse (while doing *all* the safety
    things that probably saved my life in the situation, but I was just in
    over my head and didn't realize it, because everything was going along
    so well).  So two operatons later and a lot of nerve lost, I've learned 
    That they are a big powerful animal, and if there is some willfulness 
    going on that you or she can't handle, they will be quick to sense that 
    and press the  advantage.
    
    My 2 cents
    
    Tina

    I second what .24 has to say.  I've learned a lot from lessons and
    hanging around a breeding barn.  I would have never attempted training
    anything prior to this experience.  I am always learning new things all 
    the time too, and I always have more questions.
    
    I can't recommend any training books because I can never decifer all
    the terms and concepts, so I can't judge the goodness.  When I read
    training articles I end up having more questions and I discuss them with
    my instructor.  I occasionally post questions here as well.
    
    You friends miliage may vary.    

   If she can't afford to send the horse out, at least consider having 
   an instructor or trainer come to the horse for a few sessions. Many
   trainers will make "house calls" these days, since fewer people can
   afford to send their horses out. The trainer can train the rider as
   well as the horse, and give her things to work on in between sessions.
   It's very difficult to diagnose, much less correct, problems without
   being right there to see what's happening, and even then it sometimes
   takes a few different strategies to correct a problem. Not only that,
   but he will probably have a combination of problem behaviors rather 
   than a single problem with a single solution. Although reading books 
   is still a good idea for getting some theoretical knowlege, you have 
   to remember that your horse has probably not read any of them. :^) 
       

    I absolutely agree with everyone here who has said "GET HELP!"
    
    Any problems existing today stand to be greatly magnified trying
    to do-it-yourself without the right background.
    
    The trainer mentioned previously, Paul Hebert, from Fitchburg, can
    be reached at 5-8-345-1275.  It can't cost much for a phone call.
    And I do know that he charges $395.00 per month for training and has
    a waiting list because he has a limited number of stalls.  Call him!
    
    gwen
    

    
    
    	Where do you live??? in MA...

    Thanks for the great response. I will let Tammy know of your thoughts.
    
    I live in New Hampshire. Tammy lives in LOndonderry.
    
    
    
    Mary
    

(Iv'e been out of the office for 3 weeks so I know I'm late)

A trainer I knew who has since past away, this was 10 years ago, bought a
yearling at an auction.  The horse was very small for his age and noone
wanted him so he got the horse for $200.00, figuring he could keep him
in the back yard for an additional year and let him grow if necessary.

One day the trainer turns his back to leave the stall, the horse rears
and kicks him with his front feet into the small of the trainers back.
This put's the trainer into the hospital for a few days with blood in
his urine.

When the trainer got out of the hospital he sold the horse.

The moral of the story is, if you don't know what your doing, if you don't 
know the difference between the horse not understanding what you want
and refusing to do what you want, if you think all horses are loveable
pets, etc, etc, etc, you can get yourself in very serious trouble.
                                             --------------------

    re: -.1
    
    From your description, it sounds like this was a pretty young horse. 
    If you've ever watched young horses playing, you'll have seen them
    rearing and striking at each other.  Many times, a youngster that
    hasn't had much handling will try this with its handler.  It's not
    because the horse is mean, they just think it's a game and have to be
    taught not to do it.  Algiers once reared and clipped me on the arm. 
    He got 2 good cracks across his front legs before they hit the ground
    again.  He learned not to rear and strike at people.
    
    Horses are dangerous because they are big and do a lot of damage
    unintentionally.  It is very rare to find a horse that is truly mean. 
    Much more likely to find one that hasn't been properly handled.
    
    Mary
    
    

    This is not a 'problem' horse, just very green, but this note seemed
    like the best fit save starting a new topic:
    
    I am looking for a trainer in the Concord NH area to work for 1 - 2
    months with my 6 year old but very green mare.  She's only been ridden
    approx 10 times.  She's well mannered, responsive, and willing.  She is
    also badly herd bound.  What I want is for someone to work on her
    basics and put an emphasis on breaking her herd bound problem.  I
    intend to do competitive trail with her and want a trainer who will
    take her out and start her at solo trail work for me.   With two other
    horses to keep up with and a defineate lack of time, my husband has
    offered to pay for a few months pro training as a birthday present for
    me.  It's a luxury I rarely come into, so I want to take advantage!
    
    Any recommendations?
    
    - Linda
    

    Hi,
    Well, this person is not in New Hampshire, but I can't recommend him
    highly enough for the kind of work you want done.  He is not a show
    ring trainer.  He is a horse trainer.  He's very kind and will take
    good care to give you back the willing, well mannered, responsive
    horse you give him.  And, even better, he's not outrageously expensive.
    
    His name is Paul Hebert.  He's in Fitchburg MA.  His phone number is
    508-345-1275.  You can say that I gave you his number if you want.
    
    Good luck with your mare.
    
    Gwen

Every time I land in this note and read the title I think of the two books
titled "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim" and "Red Tape Holds Up New Bridge."

Both excellent books, though I don't know if they're still in print.  Reading
them was the last time I really went into hysterics!

                               Roger :-)

    Hi Gwen,
    
    I think I recognize the name Paul Hebert - I think he's mentioned a bit
    back further in this very topic.  
    
    He sounds excellent - but Fitchburg MA is, unfortuneatly, out of the 
    question.  I'd be lucky to see my mare once a week, and I want to be 
    considerably more involved than that. 
    
    I've been referred, offline, to a woman in Goffstown named Chris Hogan
    - she's new to the area.  I've spoken with her on the phone and she
    sounds extremely professional, knowledgeable, and interested in
    helping.  My first impression is very good, but you never know!  I have
    an appointment to visit Sunday.  Anyone ever hear of her??  I didn't
    think to ask where she comes from.

    Hi Linda,
    
    If you haven't already found someone, it would be worth a call to
    Tradition Farm (Auburn, NH).  Kim Carlton has been training for over 20
    years and has the credentials and results to prove it.  I am not sure
    how she accomplishes what she does while being as gentle with horses as
    she is, but I guess that's why folks seek out trainers like her.
    
    I can personally vouch for Kim, as I have been a client for two years
    and have boarded my horse there for several months (and I don't plan to
    move her).  Kim will be training my horse (and me as well) for the
    upcoming show season.
    
    I'm not sure what her schedule is, but I think she still has slots open
    for '97.
    
    The phone number of Tradition Farm is 603-483-8865.
    
    Craig Pahigian

    Hi Craig,
    
    Thanks for the referral to Kim, but I have decided to use Chris Hogan
    at Iron Hill in Goffstown.  After visiting and seeing her work her
    dressage horse, I am confident that she is the type of trainer I want
    for Mirah and myself (believes that basic level dressage is the best
    way to start any horse regardless of the long term goal), and she is 
    very eager to do trail work as it's something she enjoys very much but 
    doesn't have much opportunity to do; she said working with Mirah is 
    going to be a pleasant break for her!  I'll be taking two lessons a
    week, my first in approx 25 years - this should be a very interesting
    experience for all of us!   
    
    The barn and indoor are brand new so the facility is exceptional, and 
    it's close to both work and home.  Mirah will be there April/May/June 
    (providing I can get my trailer out of the snowbank it's parked in by 
    then). I'll keep you posted on how it goes (and if I actually manage to
    survive taking lessons without completely humiliating myself :-).