Conference noted::equitation

    Just curious, how high do you have to bid to beat the meat market?
    

    IF THE HOSRE IS 1K LBS I THINK ITS ABOUT 700.00
    I thought meat prices were about .33.
    
    where are these auctions?? and also what time?
    are they registere horses??
    

    Every 2nd Friday of the month at Chipaway Stables in
    N. Dartmouth, MA.  Starts at 7:00pm.....they sell off
    the livestock last.....
    
    Next one is 1/10, BTW!!!!!
    
    Yes, there are registered horses, also grades, youngsters
    and ponies.  Anyone can bring a horse/pony/donkey/cow/etc.
    to sell. You pay a % fee to sell your animal, I think it's
    20% of the selling price.
    Being an auction, it's unpredictable on what will be up for
    sale.  I have seen registered paints, QH, TB's.....
    
    L-

    
    Note:  The Chipaway auctions start back up again in
    	   March.
    
    There is no auction 1/10!!!!

    They aren't making it in lots of places. I read in this week's Blood
    Horse editorial column about the prices lower class TB mares were 
    bringing at auctions. Lots of them were selling for under $500. The
    editorial said that a full 25% were selling for $500-$1,000. 
    
    Many of these mare were bought by slaughter houses for $700 or less. The 
    editor went on about how such mares deserved better even if they were 
    culls. I agree but I would extend that to ALL horses.

    I read an article in a western horse magazine discussing a bill a
    group in CA is trying to pass to improve the conditions of slaughter
    bound horses.  Many of the horses are infact registered, but that
    dosen't seem to matter to the industry.  
    
    I was shocked to read the conditions these horses were kept, and can
    only hope this bill passes.  I don't know much about the situation
    in Mass, but I hope it is better than it is in CA.  Does anyone
    know how I could find out more about Mass slaughter house regulations?

    I don't think there IS a slaughterhouse in Mass......
    The horses I know of going to one are taken to CT.
    
    BTW, Current pricing for a horse is around .38-.40 cents a lb.
    (this price varies according to demand.....)
    
    There is rumor, however, that come spring, prices may jump to
    $1 a lb, possibly due to some lifting of some kind of regulation. 
    (Most of our horsemeat is shipped to Europe...so maybe it's an import
    reg....)  I wish I knew more....
    
    But the impact would mean no riding horses available for under 
    $1500.00  (average sized horse weighing 1000 lbs = $1000, you
    get my drift....) That means most horses are worth more as meat
    than as a saddle horse.   Sad........
    

    I had heard over the summer that for a time the slaughter house
    for horses was shut down because some bad horsemeat had gotten
    to Europe and made people sick.  How true this was or what the
    situation is now, I don't know.  There are no slaughterhouses
    in Mass, any horses taken to places like FLAME in Littleton are
    shipped to Ct. for slaughter.  I could never ever take a horse
    there knowing what they do.  There is a woman in Maine that takes
    standardbreds off the track and retrains them to riding horses. 
    She works closely with the 4H and will place horses in homes with
    the right to take them back if she feels they aren't properly being
    cared for.  If you donate a horse to her program, she will give you
    the name of the people who have it and you can go visit it if you
    want.  Its a great program that seems to be working well, considering
    she only gets a $50 donation for the horse.  Last time I spoke to
    her she had 30 horses and a waiting list of people!  

    
    I read an article in my local paper about groups that are adopting
    horses and trying to find them homes. This one place was in Colorado I
    think. They said the current economic situation is forcing people to
    give up their horses because they no longer could afford the expense of
    them.
    
    Mary
    

    re: .9
    
    Mary, can you see if you can find the name of the place
    in Colorado?  I live there and I'd be interested in
    contacting them when we look for our next horse.
    
    Thanks!
    
    \Caroline

    It's a sad state, but if there's a buck to be made some people will do
    anything for it!!!
    
    Some where along the line money bacame more important than life for
    some people...
    
    

    
    	What do these slaughter houses do with the meat ?
    

    
    
    Alot of meat is used in Dog food.. 
    
    	Prices are kept down because the US doesn't allow americans
    	to eat horse meat.  But, as stated in the previous note
    	if European bill pass's and horse are legally (It is done
    	illegally(sp) today) shipped abroad.  Then Prices will boom.. People
    	will start raising horses to slaughter instead of cows.
    
    	I've been to many auctions and I feel that there is a need 
        for the KILLERs there are some horses that just don't deserve
    	another chance.  What upset me the last time I went was 
    	7 month old colt was sold for 100.00 (he went to the killers).
        
    	Donna Fultz
    	

    The Bill in CA I mentioned wasn't specifically for the slaughter house
    but more for regulating the business.  For example, did you know
    that the horses are allowed to be shipped long distances cramed in
    2 story trailers designed for cows?  They arn't able to balance
    themselves correctly because they can't stand up.  
    
    The bill will limit the number of horses per trailer to 28 (I can't
    imagine that many horses in a trailer).
    
    All horses being shipped over state lines must have proof of ownership
    and coggins.  
    
    So I would think that the horse bought in auctions for meat in Mass
    may use the same pratices outlined about currently allowed in CA.  I
    find that deplorable!
    
    Many European countries raise horses for food like we do beef, I don't
    see anything wrong with that.  In fact I think culling stock in the US
    will help eliminate the poorer examples of breeds, and will only help
    the horse.  but that can be a discussion for another day.....
    

    I don't think there is a US law against selling horse meat for human
    consumption. I think it's state laws. When I was in graduate school in
    NJ, NY had a law against selling horse meat but NJ did not.
    
    I think it's more a matter of American society's reluctance to eat
    horses than anything else that prevents a horse meat market. Of course,
    there are also societies that eat dogs but that's another conference.

    The meat is packed for shipment to Europe......that is,
    the horses are slaughtered here, dressed, packed and shipped.
    Not that much is used in dog food anymore....beef, chicken
    and lamb are the main ingredients in most dogfood nowadays...
    
    

    
    The meat market situation is just going in a cycle.  About 10 to 12
    years ago, horse prices WERE $1.00 a lb.  And lots of good saddle
    horses were going to the killers because the normal casual horse
    buyer couldn't afford to compete with the killers.  It drove the 
    prices up on the good horses.  And gave an avenue to get rid of 
    the less desireables -- the physical cripples, the mental cripples, 
    and unfortunately a few good horses.  Reports of horse stealing 
    increased.  
    
    This encouraged people to start freeze marking their horses.
    
    Mary JO

    
    
    	What's freeze Marking?
    
    Donna Fultz

	<Can'o'worms>   <My 2 cents>   <Gentle flame>

	In the Canine notes file I used to see lots of discussion
	about breeding, and breeding responsibility. Although some of
	those notes were extremely irritating and downright rude (I
	don't even bother reading it any more, because of that), it
	did raise my conciousness with regard to 'responsible breeding'.
	And I think this is a good place to bring up the subject.

	We are responsible for educating ourselves about breeding before
	we jump into it to make a buck - what's prepotency? what am I
	breeding to get? how do I get it? what DON'T I want? How do I
	avoid it? and on and on. Always, but especially now when the
	market won't support what there is out there, and you do see
	many going to slaughter.

	What I've seen in this notes file does not indicate irresponsiblity;
	in fact, just the opposite - caring, loving, concern. But if anyone
	reads this, and thinks twice about just breeding a new baby without
	educating themselves, then that's good.

	That's it...I'm off the soapbox now.

    Freeze Marking (Branding) is a way to mark your horse
    that is much less disfiguring than a hot brand.  I
    can't remember the chemical they use, (other than it
    is like liquid nitrogen, freezes on contact) but the result
    is a permanent white colored "brand" that is usually
    along the neck, under the mane.  The method causes the
    hair to grow back in white.....

    I agree 110% with .19. 
    

    
    
      i believe the info on the place in Colorado has to do with adopting
      the wild horses/burros from the BLM (Bureau of Land Management).
      the selling is done thru the BLM, and most horses are "green-broke"
      by the inmates in a program at the prison in Canon City. i knew one
      person (not very well) that had to go to Canon City to pick up the
      horse. i don't have much more info, but you could contact the BLM.
    
      kathy
    

    thanks Kathy!  I've already got one "green-broke" one! :-) So
    it's going to be awhile before I go after another one, but I'll
    keep it in mind.
    
    
    \Caroline

    Doesn't the nature of breeding animals mean that you will
    get some unsuitable individuals ?

    Suppose we start a fantasy-farm to breed Grand Prix Dressage
    horses.  Since we have an unlimited budget we are of course
    breeding the best to the best.

    What would the sucess ratio be per foal born ?

    I have no idea, 1 out of a 100, 1 out of a 1,000 ?

    I thought some of the bragging about European Warmbloods and
    recently Icelandic Ponies was that there are no unsuitable
    individuals, that there is "another" market for them.    

    (I agree all of the abuses we have all heard about should be stopped).

    I get as attached to the horses I ride as much as anyone else but
    this is necessary.

    If a particular individual horse is not a good example of the breed,
    this means that you should not use it in breeding.  It doesn't mean
    that you have to slaughter it.  But. lets face it, one reason there are
    so many extra horses is that the ecomony is so bad.  And there are a
    lot of breeders out there feeding horses that were bred two or three
    years ago, when things weren't quite so bad.  I think too many people
    went into the breeding business -- I was one of them.  It's easy to say
    that people shouldn't breed a horse they won't be able to sell, but how
    do you know that beforehand?  I was standing a Thoroughbred stallion
    who has impeccable conformation for dressage and/or eventing, with just
    what people seemed to want -- good sturdy legs, 9 inch bone, wonderful
    gaits.  Now, it's almost impossible to get bookings for your stallion
    unless you have some foals fo people to see.  So I spent a long time
    looking for really good mares, and produced 4 foals over two years.
    These foals were *great* -- and I still just about gave them away. 
    These babies had everything going for them -- good dispositions, great
    conformation, *princely*  bloodlines.....    So it's not just people
    getting rid of culls, because even the good ones dont sell.
    
    Personally, if it came to it, I would rather put a horse down and bury
    it on my farm than send it to the killers.  But, by the way, my
    accountant said that the IRS would frown on this.  Not selling the
    horse could be considered as evidence that I was not really operating
    the farm as a business, but just trying to get a tax write-off for my
    hobby.   Grim, huh?
    
    -ellie

    Re: Controlled Breeding
    
    What gets me is the "breeding for breedings sake" mentality
    that seems to prevail.  Like the young girl (14?) who announced
    she was going to breed her mare (the mare obviously not breeding 
    quality, borderline nag, actually, and 200 lbs underweight, to boot!) 
    so she could have a baby colt.  This mare had a ewe neck, splayed
    front feet, no withers, a hammerhead, you name it.  When I told the girl
    she would have to put 200 lbs on the mare BEFORE she could be bred,
    I was met with a blank stare, and then a comment that she couldn't
    afford to feed the horse to do that.  I have seen some pretty poor
    breeding of horses, just because they have papers, too.
    
    Re .0 This same auction had a 5 mth old colt standing in a pen, waiting
    its turn to go.....the owner couldn't sell it, and he/she had to
    feed it, so off to the auction it went.  Guess where this "cute little
    baby" ended up?
    
         
    	

    I was told that not all the horses bough at the auction end up as meat,
    the keep the good ones for resale.
    
    Can anyone confirm this, or was someone trying to be nice to me....

	>    Doesn't the nature of breeding animals mean that you will
	>    get some unsuitable individuals ?

	Of course there are no sure things (even death and taxes?),
	but that's no excuse not to do as much as possible to reduce the
	risk and to strive for the best possible, in any discipline.

	And, when one makes the effort to educate one's self, it's AMAZING
	what a person can learn. For instance, computers are now being used
	by breed registries to match mares with stallions! Genetics is NOT
	the law of averages. An ugly horse can throw beautiful babies, and
	a gorgeous horse can produce monsters, as can matching recessive
	genes. Breeding is NOT a crap shoot.

	There is no excuse for irresponsible breeding of any animal.

    
    
    	Not all horses sold at the auction are sold for meat.
    
    	If you want a horse you will have to pay over the meat market
    	price say it's a $1.00 a pd for a horse and a horse weight
    	in at 1500 pds (they weight them out back).  then you would
    	have to buy the horse for more than 1500 dollars.
    
    	Alot of horses at the agawam auction are baught by the
        owner and he uses them as trail horses and then sells them
    	to people who might be interested after riding them.
    
    	donna

    
    	A friend of mine is a horse dealer, she buys lots of horses
    	at auction for training and resale. (~200 a year).
    
    	Sherry
    

    There are buyers at a horse auction for different purposes.
    Horse dealers, who buy to resell as a riding horse, individuals
    looking to buy themselves a horse, and individuals who are in
    the "meat" business.  

    re: BLM-adopt-a-horse program
    
    That program was recently called to task by the Government Accounting
    Office(GAO) for removing too many horses from the range, allowing
    wholesale adoptions(read slaughter houses), and not monitoring welfare
    of adopted horses. 
    
    GAO has now required BLM to:
       1. Develop actual data on range conditions and wild horse capacity
       2. Where overgrazing is shown, take steps to improve growth of
          native vegetation
       3. If wild horses are removed from the range, domestic livestock
          must be removed in proportion.
    
    There was a report on this issue in the May 91 issue of Cornell's
    Animal Health Newsletter. In the June issue, there was the following 
    question from a reader:
    
    "Q: In your article on the federal wild horse program you mention
    wholesaler operations that are involved in the slaughter of horses. Is
    there still such an industry in operation in this country?
    
    A: Yes, there is a large horse meat industry in this country. The
    United States is in fact the WORLD'S LARGEST SUPPLIER of horsemeat.
    According to a recent report, the total number of horse carcasses
    inspected annually by the US Department of Agriculture has risen from
    139,000 in 1983 to 299,120 in 1988. Horse meat products must pass
    inspection by the US Department of Agriculture. Major buyers are
    European countries and Japan. A study from the University of Illinois
    conducted by Dr. K.H.Kline and associates states that the horse meat
    industry has always been an integral part of the overall horse economy
    in the US because it determines the residual value of all horses."

    
    	John, I thought I had heard that the program for the
    	prisoners to train mustangs had been discontinued? Do 	
    	you know anything about that?
    
    	Sherry
    

    Sherry,
    
    I couldn't find anything on the prison program to train mustangs. I
    remembered reading SOMETHING about such a program recently but couldn't
    remember where until I reviewed the notes in this topic! It was right
    here and that was the first I had heard about that program. I knew of
    others in which prisoners were working with TB's off the track, etc but
    I hadn't heard about this particular program.
    
    Sorry, I couldn't help. 
    
    John
    
    (PS Is Wayne willing to travel out West? We haven't found anybody as
    good as the Robinson clan yet and we've been here 4 years!)

>	                         For instance, computers are now being used
>	by breed registries to match mares with stallions! Genetics is NOT
>	the law of averages. An ugly horse can throw beautiful babies, and
>	a gorgeous horse can produce monsters, as can matching recessive
>	genes. Breeding is NOT a crap shoot.

    All of this, when done for GENERATIONS OF ANIMAL breeding, has the intended
    effects but the breeding of any individual is without a question
    A CRAP SHOOT.

    What else would you call:

>	                     An ugly horse can throw beautiful babies, and
>	a gorgeous horse can produce monsters, as can matching recessive
    

    I brought this up because I didn't like the attitude that anyone
    who bred an animal they could not sell was an idiot and wanted to
    demonstrate why it is so difficult to be sucessful at it.

    

    I'll second that. Even though computers are being used to match mares
    with stallions, they do so STATISTICALLY (e.g. this pedigree crosses
    well with that line 47% of the time; sometimes a scoring system for
    conformation, speed, or whatever is used with the pedigree ). We simply do 
    not know enough about the genetics of horses, the extent to which any given
    conformation/personality trait is inherited etc. 
    
    If we did have all the genetic knowledge needed to breed "perfect horses",
    don't you think the TB breeders would be using it? If there was ever any 
    group of breeders that would take advantage of ANY edge they could get 
    over the competition, it's the TB breeding INDUSTRY. They ARE businesses. 
    Many of them make their living at it. 
    
    The knowledge and technology to do what was suggested in the earlier
    note simply DOES NOT EXIST. Breeding is an ART aided by science. We
    cannot yet predict with any accuracy what the result of a particular
    mating will be. Why else would so many full siblings be so different?

    Boy, I'll second John's comment about full siblings!
    
    I have a beautiful stallion with a gorgeous pedigree (not just my
    biased opinion) and a lovely mare with a pedigree that complements
    his in every way.  
    
    She has produced three fillies by him.  And, while the girls all
    have some traits in common like really nice legs, and wonderful
    attitudes towards their work, they also have some major differences.
    They do not look like 1, 2, 3, cut with the same cookie cutter.
    
    Here's another question:  How much do you think environment/atmosphere
    affects how horses turn out?  

    IMHO, environment affects how they turn out quite a bit.
    
    Feeding, medical care, turn out, deworming program, shoeing and
    handling all affect the horse either mentally or physically or both.
    
    Inadequate nutrition will stunt their growth. Overfeeding leads to bone
    or joint problems. etc

>    I brought this up because I didn't like the attitude that anyone
>    who bred an animal they could not sell was an idiot and wanted to
>    demonstrate why it is so difficult to be sucessful at it.

       I don't like that attitude either; it's unfair and unrealistic.
       Stuff happens; but I advocate doing all you can to breed the best.

       And it certainly is not a crap shoot; in a crap shoot there is no
       control whatsoever. There are some very definite reasons why a
       beautiful horse can create monster babies and vice-versa. And ways
       to avoid them if you know certain things like lineage, prepotency,
       and the basic laws of genetics; people who look at none of this are
       making it no more than a crap shoot. 

       No, we can't do it 100% right every time, but we do have some
       control. We mustn't use the fact that we don't have TOTAL control
       an excuse for not exercising ANY control.

    can anyone give me the name, address, phone of the woman in Maine
    rehabing horses?
    
    Thanks
    
    Darlene

    The lady who retrains the standardbreds is Diane Parsons, her number
    is 207-993-2640.
    
    Linda

	There is an article in the Boston Globe today about lots of horses in
Texas being stolen and sold to the slaughter houses. One person just had a 
$20,000 dollar horse stolen and turned up in the meat market !

    There was a similar article in EQUUS a few months back. The stolen
    horses were from CA in that case. The owners tracked down 2 of the 3 stolen
    horses to a TX slaughterhouse. If I remember right, the thieves were
    actually other boarders at the palce where these horses were boarded!
    The owners located the horses themselves and they ended up PAYING the 
    slaughterhouse a "reward" for holding the horses until they could get 
    there to pick them up. The "reward" was much larger than the the price the
    slaughterhouse had paid the thieves for the horses. I think the thieves
    were eventually caught in the act. They were too late to save the 3rd
    horse. 

    Sounds like time to re-institute the "classic" penalty for
    horse stealing.
    
    Joe