Conference noted::equitation

Looking at 4.98 showed me that there is also a note, #856, that discusses
Navicular.  You might find some additional information there.

Making the decision when to put down an animal is possibly one of the most
difficult decisions one has.  It is true whether the animal is dog, cat, horse,
or whatever.  One guideline I try to use is whether the animal is in pain.  If
they are hurting, then it is better that they be put to sleep.  If they are
not in pain, the decision becomes infinitely more difficult.  Ony you can know
what is right.  You will know when the time is right.  Horses are like people.
Some people live to be 100 years old, and some only live to 50.  Not all are
alike.  I have always thought of 18-20 as being old.  I am surprised, pleasantly
so, by the ages of your Farrier's animals.

Good luck in your decision.  I wouldn't want to be in your position.

Ed..

    Perhaps if he could live comfortably if he was not worked you could
    offer him as a companion horse?? Whatever any horses age, when it is
    painful for him to be ridden it's very unfair to keep doing so....but
    if he's only 18-20, and could live painfree without the work, finding
    him a retirement situation would be a very thoughtful option, and from
    the sounds of it, one he deserves. There are farms that accept
    retirees, turning them out to pasture (with, of course, shelter and
    daily maintainence), I have friends who do just that with
    injured-beyond-repair racehorses in Kentucky, they're farm is spectular
    and the retirees have everything a horse could possibly want. Sometimes
    you can find someone looking for a companion horse, as well.....to keep
    a lonely show horse company at home, or whatever. Good luck in whatever
    you decide to do!
    

    
    i cannot imagine "the pookmaster" as being a companion horse in most
    occasions.  he is -- how do i say this -- NASTY! in that respect.  he
    almost starved to death this one mare that he was being pastured with. 
    however right now pook is in a paddock with a gelding that has always 
    been #1 in any situation he's ever been in.  for some unknown reason 
    this gelding let's pook be the top horse. and i think because this
    gelding has enough smarts and is big enough to intimidate pook just
    a little, after all pook is almost 14.3 -- the gelding is 15.2+.
    
    as far as retiring him -- that could cripple him.  one of the primary
    reasons his spavins have been doing so well is that he has been ridden
    somewhat regularly.  i have also been told that navicular isn't cured
    with REASONABLE exercise for that type of ailment but helped.  the vet
    also told me that for his colic episode he would need to be worked to 
    keep his inners moving. the vet said not riding him could would make
    things worse for pook.
    
    BUT, if someone was to have a very large farm, with lots of space...
    pook probably wouldn't fight or eat everyone's grain, and he would get
    his exercise.
    
    BUT, how could someone take him with the special shoeing requirements
    he needs?  it would cost a fortune! mine is so cheap because ingrid is
    my friend...
    
    I did read note #856 and printed it so i could study it more later.
    --thanks
    
    Please -- more ideas!

    If he has been having a lot of problems with colic, I would suggest
    making his feed into mash just by adding water 10 minutes or so before
    you feed him and let it soak.  We have a very colic prone horse at our
    barn who has improved greatly since we started doing this.  Its hard to
    see a horse so young with so many problems, but you have to judge each
    horse differently.  I had a 4 year old die from heart failure, and a 9
    year old die from a brain tumor, so they are all individuals, just like
    people.  As much as you love him, you have to do what is best for him
    and insure that he doesn't suffer.  Good luck and keep us posted.

    Since the vet is coming, you need to have a serious talk
    with him/her on Pookie's future.  You need to diagnose,
    discuss in great length, and understand what Pookie's
    future and quality of life is going to be.
    
    But, first, the vet needs to verify the lameness as navicular, 
    or whatever (I'd bet that the farrier is right).  Then
    any of the other health problems (colic, & whatever else)
    and put together a profile on Pookie, and what a long
    range prognosis would be.  Also, you need to take into
    consideration the costs associated with the prognosis,
    (short & long range), and what you can afford.  Of course
    you love Pookie, and you don't want to lose him.  But,
    can you afford Pookie as a pet (unridable)?  Will he be
    in pain down the line as the navicular worsens, or if the
    colic becomes more frequent?  If you find another home for
    him, will he be cared for properly and as long as he lives?
                      
    Like others have said, it's a tough decision to have to make
    when you might have to think about putting him down, but
    work with the vet on this.
    
    Lynne

    Maybe decreasing the exercise, without eliminating it entirely, would
    help reduce Pookie's lameness.  Like, limiting the riding to 1 hour max
    and walking only.  Especially since he's starting to stumble a lot...he
    must be uncomfortable too.
    
    Does anyone know anything about bute causing stomach problems?  I
    haven't heard of this before, but maybe giving in his feed would reduce
    the risks there.
    
    I agree with the earlier note...get the x-rays to confirm navicular and
    have a long talk with your vet.
    
    Mary

    I have known bute in continued dosage to cause stomach ulcers.  Now
    each horse is different but it is something to keep in mind.  I believe
    the usage was over a year or so and it was being used for no real
    reason other than to make the horse feel good.  It really was drug
    abuse.
    
    Kathie
    

    
    well noters, 
    
    a vet came yesterday, but it was not my regular vet; and i am afraid
    that i got nothing of real value from the vet at all.  the experience
    was a disaster in fact.  
    
    but let's get into some shoeing issues regarding navicular.
    #1 the slippered shoe -- does anyone use it and has it been beneficial?
       this is one thing the vet did recommend trying.  now it is my
       belief that this would not benefit my horse because of the degree
       of contracted, rolled under heel.  if my blacksmith were to put
       these shoes on pook it seems to me that he would have little to no
       support on his heels.  not to mention that with a slippered heel
       pads cannot be used.  pads are extremely necessary in our area
       because it is so rocky.  so even if i were convinced that the 
       shoe could correct the problem.  i probably wouldn't be able to
       utilize it because of the terrain -- pook bruises easily.
    
    #2 support pads -- they generally cost $20 or more.  they have a
       support heel and they have supports that can be molded to the
       horses frog.  one problem with this pad is that they are expensive
       and cannot be reused -- but if it would help pook, i would do it
       in a snap.  the second problem with these pads -- this is the
       one i would really like some views on -- is pook as i said above
       grows little to no heel.  zip.  now take a pad that is used to
       support a normally growing foot.  the room in the toe and heel
       will expand right?  well what happens if just the toe grows.
       a gap between the pad and the toe will exists but no gap will
       happen between the heel and the pad.  so -- does that mean that what
       little heel does grow will no longer be incouraged to grow because
       of the support?
    
    #3 of course the 3rd option is the egg-bar shoes
    
    

    
    more on pooker,
    
    saturday and sunday we took pook out for a short 1 (hr) walk.  he is
    now lame on all four legs -- his strides are short and uncertain and he
    continues to trip alot (if not more so than before).  This is probably 
    due to the fact that his front end has been bothering him and his 
    backend has been compensating for it --  thereby causing pain due to 
    bone spavins in the rear.
    
    i am calling my regular vet out today to see if anything can be done.
    if not, i am going to have him put down.  i called last chance corral.
    i do not think it would be fair to have him go there.  they place the
    horses after about six months at the corral and promise to monitor 
    their existance at their new home and to take them out of a bad 
    environment should one evolve.  the thing is though i
    don't even want him to get into a bad environment to have to be pulled
    out of.  i know that i have provided him with a good and loving home (i
    must have or else this decision wouldn't be killing me as much as it
    is), and i don't want him to know any hardship at all.
    
    another thing i needed to consider is the economic environment.  
    it is bad, and pooker needs $100 shoes every six to ten weeks.  
    who would want to afford that for a horse they couldn't even ride?
    
    fortunately for me i have good friends, my blacksmith/farrier has
    offered to take care of everything for me should this decision need to
    be made -- which is really good because -- i just don't, can't...
    
      
    talk about gut wrenching through -- this really stinks...
    

    Keep your chin up.....my two send hugs and carrots!!!
    
    Lynne & Ranger's Angel & Abe

    
    pook, pook, pook...
    
    does have everything we thought; however, the vet believes that we
    should try a limited amount of bute in his diet 6 hours before riding. 
    he believes that he should ONLY receive the bute IF he is going to be
    ridden.  (rides are limited to 45 minutes to an hour -- probably at a
    walk/trot (depending on he feels).)  he also felt that egg-bar shoes
    were needed right away.
    
    although i must say initially i thought -- gee, well, what would i keep
    a horse like this for?  but then i determined exactly what my "needs"
    for a horse currently are and what they my be a year or so down the
    road.  my decision was obvious once i sorted it all out.  
    
    i am currently in the process of obtaining an african grey or large
    bird -- which would take up some of my time; my job has become more
    demanding over the past year and i suspect that as time goes on it is
    only going to be more demanding; and since i am coming
    real quickly up on thirty -- i have to consider (along with my husband)
    if we want to have ... kids -- (my grandmother would shoot me if she
    knew i called them kids instead of babies but ...).
    
    so pook stays -- at least for a while longer
    just so you don't get the same false since of security that i did, just
    as the vet was leaving he did warn me that winter would be more 
    difficult on pook -- and that the bute might not work with pook's
    stomach -- etc; but at least pooker has another chance!
    
    and they say cats have nine lives!

    That's great news! I hope Pookie gets better with the bute!
    
    Lisa.
    

    
    well this weekend was the real test, we took the pooker out for 45
    minutes.  he was moving much better and at the time he had only
    received the bute.  my friend ingrid is coming out to shoe him tomorrow
    night with the egg-bar shoes.  he can only get better -- i hope!
    
    let's just hope his stomach holds out being on bute -- but he does only
    get it when we go riding 3 to 4 times per week -- so hopefully --
    
    thanks all for your concerns and support -- 
    i needed it bad!

If navicular is his current problem, you might ask the vet about putting
your horse on Isoxuprine.  I forget what it does exactly (dialate the blood 
vessels in the feet?) but I've seen it make some pretty crippled horses pretty
comfortable.  

    Just returned to this notefile after many months of not following it.
    One option for a horse with navicular disease is to  to perform a
    neurectomy. This procedurs consists of cutting the nerves that lead to
    the back of the hoof. It relieves the pain and avoids the constant use
    of pain killing medication. Something you may want to discuss with your
    vet. Hope the pook is feelin better.
    
    bobk
    

    Are there a lot of negative repercussions from doing that? 

    re. nerving
    
    
    Its helps some horse not all, they lose the feeling on one side of the
    foot... once the nerve is cut the felling never comes back. 
    and i thinkk (dont quote me) that it depends on the rotation of the
    coffin bone.... 
    
    

    In the case of navicular, the nerves in the heel may be removed which
    will make the horse sound for a while, but once the disease has 
    progressed to the entire pedal joint, nothing can be done to make
    the horse sound again.  Complete nerving is very dangerous, obviously
    the horse has no feeling in its hoof and has no idea where he is
    putting his foot as he is going along.  

    IMHO, the horse cannot be ridden again.  Some of the negative
    aspects of that is that since there is no feeling, any injury
    to that hoof may go undetected (i.e., step on a nail, no indication
    of pain to show somethings wrong...), like someone said before,
    the horse doesn't feel what he is placing his foot on, and 
    also, I think there may be the possibility of the hoof "dying" (?)
    what I mean is, sometimes the tissue dies and sluffs off....
    
    L
    

    As with any surgical procedure, neurectomy has pro and cons. And yes,
    the horse requires special care to insure that injuries to the back of
    the hoof are detected and treated in time. A decision to perform this
    surgery must not be taken ligtly. But is an option. That is why I suggested
    that the vet be consulted as to the appropriateness of the procedure. 

    re. last
    
    
    Just to let you know depending on the condition and what the prognosis
    is.. you can nerve a foot and still say ....barrel race.. out in colorado i 
    was supposed to buy a horse that jumped and did barrels (and great at
    it) i dont remeber why she was done tho' .....
    thats was 15 years ago and i think the horse is still ridden
    no other problems... 
    
    When nerved just a portion of the foot loses its feeling, not all the
    way around....
    Personally now, if my horse was in pain and i might have success with 
    nerving.. i'd do it... but i would watch very very closely...
    My mare is still lame (not really in pain) she foudn out how to get
    around it.... but if i could nerve her so that she wouldnt feel it, i
    would.
    But*** dont forget ... the operation Isnt * always successful!
    
    
    		wendy o'

    re. -2
    
    opps ... you got your note in before me :*)
    
    	
    wendy o'
    

    An old friend had her gelding nerved in all four feet (yes, he actually
    had navicular in all 4).  They told her it was possible for the nerves
    to grow back and they did in 5 mos.  She had him nerved a second time
    in just one foot.  that too grew back.  He then developed one of the
    spavins in the hock (forget which type) so she put him to sleep.

    
    HE TAKES A LICKING AND KEEPS ON TICKING!  isn't it a cat that has nine
    lives?
    
    wait till you read this one! now we all know pookie has bone spavins,
    collapsed heels, a mild case of navicular (the egg-bars have helped
    greatly), and that he almost died a year ago with colic.  right?
    
    well this year's malady was diarrhea.  i am not talking about once or
    twice just having loose stools type diarrhea.  i am talking about --
    how do i put this -- peeing out his backend when he passed gas type of
    diarrhea!  his poops were spread three feet long!  this would happen
    day after day, month after month.  i had called two different vets to
    come and look at him.  they checked him for worms, all kinds of things.
    NOTHING.  he wasn't loosing weight.  he wasn't lethargic.  he looked
    darn good.  we added salt to his water to make sure he didn't get
    dehydrated, but we couldn't figure out what was the source of this
    problem. 
     
    this actually wasn't a new ailment.  i have noticed that this has
    happened every year come summer time for the past 5 years or so
    actually.  each time i would talk to my vet/vets about it.  they asked,
    did you change your hay?  is he on new grain? blah blah blah. 
    i always called it barometric diarrhea since it came with the heat
    (except this year it wasn't just heat stimulated -- in march it became
    a daily thing).  
    
    well good old beth (stable partner) swore she would cure pookies latest
    ailment.  she began reading, and discovered that diarreha can occur
    from a lack of vitamin B12.  beth put pookie on a vitamin supplement
    (i'll have to look up the name).  
    
    it hadn't been working, but the readings she found said it would take a
    good month before it did work. it is just after a month from the start 
    date now and he has	PERFECT POOPS!  he has gone from 7 qts a day to 5.
    and he looks MARVELOUS!