Conference noted::equitation

    The pond is a great in the warmer months, but I would watch your
    horses carefully in the winter, some horses don't know enough to
    stay off the unsafe ice.  A couple of years ago I helped pull one
    out of a pond that fell thru the ice, that is not something that
    anyone would want to deal with.
    
    I fenced an acre field with pressure treated posts, the porcelain
    insulators (they don't rot like the plastic do), and the medium
    gage electric wire.  Using the wooden posts keeps the wire from
    sagging, keeping it strong and neat.  There's not alot of up-keep
    as compared to post and rail and the cost was considerably less.
    
    If you can get a hold of Caldwell barns, they have alot of barn
    plans they will give you.  The lumber companies like Grossmans
    have do it yourself barn plans too.
    
    I did the very same thing about 7 years ago, it's all worth the
    work up front !  Great managing your own care for the horses and
    having them around.
    
    Good Luck  and let us know how your progressing.
    
    Sharon

There is alot of information in here about these topics.  Please post your
specific questions in the appropriate places.  I have placed this note write-
locked.  If you feel that it should be reopened, please feel free to contact
me.

Ed..
Co-moderator

Note #4.12 has a directory of barn notes
Note #4.28 has a directory of fencing notes
Note #4.100 has a directory of pasture management notes

    What about putting the fence line so that the horses can reach through
    it to drink, but not get through it to actually walk into the pond??
    My paddock is bordered by a stream, my mare can stick her neck through
    the fence but not get any closer.
    
    I'd also recommend Caldwell barns, my neighbors put on up a few months
    ago, it's a small 2-horse barn, but is simply gorgeous, well-planned
    and well-built...also expensive, though. My husband and brother-in-law
    built mine, it's only a 1 horse right now but we'll be adding a second
    stall late this summer....the original part cost about 800$, we are
    expecting the addition to go about 1000.00$.
    

    I would definitely put concrete in the tack room and have a "wash
    stall" area with concrete and a drain.  However, I would put dirt in
    the aisle.  We presently have concrete as this was done before we moved
    there but there is a greater chance for them slipping on the concrete. 
    My preference would be dirt.
    
    Good luck...it is definitely a fun project.
    
    One thing you might want to include in the plans is a shavings bin.
    Makes it handy in the winter.
    
    

    We built a three stall barn and have concrete in the
    isleway and tackroom, and the stalls are clay & rubber
    mat floors.  
    
    Fencing - We went to a sawmill (not a lumberyard) and
    purchased the 4x4 posts at 1/3 the cost, and for rails
    we used what the sawmills call "slabs".  These are the
    parts of the round log that are sliced off to make the
    round log square.  (they have the bark still on them)
    They were $1 a truckload, so we basically got the rails
    free.   This made a big deal $$$ wise when we fenced in 
    our acre +.
    
    Lynne                                     
    

Hi,
	You didn't say where you are (but I guess Colorado) and you may
	in your barn construction and pasture planning make sure that you
	have rights to the water that is on your land. As I have been
	told in Colorado water is separatly deeded from the actual 
	property. This I believe may be especially true if you plan to
	sink a well for the barn. (There may be other restrictions that
	exist but since I don't live in CO I have no idea)

	For noters in good old Taxachusetts, who may be considering
	a new barn or starting horse property... There are some rather
	discouraging laws that have been adopted by the state regarding
	stabling. These laws give local board of health officials
	sweeping powers to say wether you can stable horses on your
	property.

	Some restrictions to be aware of are minimum distances to
	open water (400'), type and size of fencing required, (4')
	distance between barn and property line (60'), insect & rodent
	control, manure disposal (only 1 cord allowed on premises)
	drainage, proximety to wells and leeching fields. And probably
	alot more than I am currently aware of.

	In anyevent and no matter where you are, it might be wise to work WITH
	your local goverment officials to ensure all local regulations
	are complied with (or variances issued). 

Ed P

    My husband and I also recently purchased 10 acres in Virginia. 
    We would like to buy two horses in a year or two, but first we
    need to prepare the property for the horses.  The area we plan 
    on using for the horses had been cleared by the previous owners,
    however, the land is very hilly and since it was scalped by the
    previous owners (not even a blade of grass left, just bare dirt/
     clay) t continues to erode with each rainfall.  The
    ruts are at least 1 foot deep.  We are having a horrible time
    trying to find free fill-dirt.  The reason I say "free" is we
    had a few estimates done, and were told we'd need 2 or 3 hundred
    truck loads of fill dirt to fill in and level out the "grand-
    canyon" area.  Well, enough of my rambling on... My question is,
    how hilly/steep can land be if you want to keep horses on it?
    We would definately fill in the ruts from the rain erosion, but
    chances are, we aren't likely to be able to get 300 truck loads
    of dirt brought in to completely level out the area.  Can we just
    fill in the ruts, put a little top soil on the area, and try to
    grow pasture/meadow???  Is it dangerous to have horses on hilly
    land???  What degree of hill is acceptable, or do horses prefer
    flat to gently rolling land???  The area would only be for grazing,
    not for riding the horses.
    
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanx!
    Also, This is the first time I've used NOTES, so I hope this
    works.  Moderator - Please note...I checked Note #4.100 re: pasture
    management, and all related notes, but none discuss, or answer
    my question regarding "HILLY LAND".  Thanx!
    
     

    Some people would "kill" for hills.  I know for the babies it helps 
    strengthen them.  Its good for all of them really.  We definitely have
    hills on our land.  I would think the ruts would be a problem.
    
    Good luck...sounds like a fun project.
    
    Kathie
    

    I have to agree with an earlier noter that a pond is fine in the
    warm weather - but beware of it when it start to freeze over. My horse
    was once in a pasture with a pond that froze and it was just be chance
    that he did not wander onto it - right behind his buddies. But one of
    his buddies was not so fortunate in that the ice crached and he went
    through. He had not ventured too far at that point so he was okay but
    we shudder to think what would have happen had he gotten 10 feet
    further out and that happened.
     
    
     

    I vote for Caldwell Barns, in New Boston, N.H.
    
    Regarding fencing a pond or not. We had a pond, it was fenced, but
    there was a fenced cut into the pond, where it was not deep. In the
    summer the horses used to go into it and bathe, they never went in
    during the winter.
    
    Regarding the flooring, we had concrete floor in the washstall with a
    rubber mat, the ailes were also concrete with rubber mats. The footing
    was excellent for the horses, but apain in the neck to clean. It was
    good again, that once the floor needed realy washing, we could do it,
    but the rubber mats had to be dragged out. I prefer clay, or sand or
    dirt, then you can take a rake and do what you have to do. 
    
    In the tackroom we had a woodfloor, with a small stove on a concrete
    pedestal. 
    
    The stalls were stonedust and clay, with airholes along the bottom of
    the walls.
    
    It worked well.
    Good luck Ruth 	

    
    
    Here in Colorado there are several builders that specialize in barns
    and will build to your specifications.  
    
    One is Barn-Tech, Inc. You can call them at 495-3030.  They receantly
    put up a four stall barn on Black Forest Road just north of the Kit
    Carson Arena they could be just the type of barn you are interested in.
    
    Another builder is Barns by Country Wood Shed.  They can be reached at
    495-0510.  Several people that I know have had barns built by this
    company and they are all very pleased with both the price and the
    quality of the construction.
    
    You could also call Morton Buildings at (719) 578-1777.  These people
    build some of the nicest barns you will ever step foot in and the
    prices they charge reflect that.  They usually run 25%-50% more than
    other builders but they guarentee their buildings for forever.  
    
    Books on barn plans can be ordered from Breakthrough Press.  Their
    address is in another note on catalogs.  Do a direct/key=catalog to
    find it.
    
    My personal opinion is that split rail fence is one of the worst for
    horses.  There are a lot of splinters and the horses seem to be able to
    destroy the fence in no time.  I prefer a fence made out of wire mesh
    attached to wood posts with a 2X6 plank installed at the top of the fence.
    the mesh is small enough to keep the horse from putting a foot through
    it and strong enough to keep them from tearing the fence up.  I prefer
    the V-mesh type fence but it is *very* expensive to install.  There are 
    also two other types of mesh fence.  One type is a stock fence that has
    a mesh made up of 2" X 4" squares and will also keep out stray dogs and
    children and is resonably priced.  The other type of mesh is called field 
    fence and is the same as stock fence except the mesh is made up of 4" X 4" 
    squares.  All three types of mesh fence comes in a variety of heights so 
    that you can install the size fence you need. Another optiion is to install
    a fence of 3 or 4 strands of smooth wire on metal posts.  This type of 
    fence is the cheapest and easiest to install and will provide you with a 
    safe turnout for your horses.  
    
    One thing to remember about ponds is that some people have been known
    to use them as dumps.  I had a friend whose horse went out into a pond
    and cut it's legs very badly on some junk that had been thrown into it.
    You might want to check that out before you allow your horses access to
    the pond.  
    
    Pat  

    
    
    There is also a Colorado horse notes file located at
    GENRAL::COLORADO_HORSE.  You might want to check that notes conference
    for additional Colorado specific information.
    
    Pat

    Thanks for all of the responses I've received to this note....they have
    really been informative.
    
    We were thinking about making the barn-building a family project; 
    therefore, I was initially looking to pick up the barn plans.  (We may
    change our minds down the road and want to hire one of the barn
    builders recommended in .13.)
    
    Can someone provide me with an address in New Hampshire for Caldwell
    Barns so that I can order some barn plans from them?
    
    Carol

    I was in a barn the other day which had a wooden isleway.  It was
    easier on the feet (warmer in the winter).  
    
    My dream barn would have an indoor wash stall, heated tack room w/ 
    a wooden floor, some sort of dirt/clay/stone dust stall floors
    with rubber mats.  Plenty of ventilation, walk in/out paddocks......

    
    
    re: .16  You might want to talk to your local county extension office
    about your property.  They would know about possible problems with your
    pond and they often times have barn plans available for free or at a
    very low cost.  If I remeber correctly, barn plans are also available
    from a department at Iowa State University but I don't know which one
    off hand.
    
    Pat

    
    
    
    	Hi All-
    
    	I have a few questions to ask...  I searched all the notes
    	pertaining to fencing but I couldn't find anything regarding
    	what I need.  First, we are fencing in an arce of land for my
    	beastie, at the moment we have all the posts in (4X4 pressure
    	treated) now all we need are the rails!  First question:  What
    	is a better size rail? 2X6 or could we use 1X6?  These will be
    	eight foot sections, three rails high with an electric wire on
    	top.  Second question:  Does anyone know of any lumber mills
    	in the Southern N.H. area that have rails at a reasonable price?
    	At the moment I have been quoted at, for 300 2X6x8 rails it will 
    	cost me $792 (rough cut) and for 300 1X6x8 is will cost $396 also
    	rough cut.  We would like to use 1x6 but I just want to make sure
    	these will be strong enough fo my wild man.  The posts are 5' high
    	with 3' in the ground, plus we will also, I like above adding an
    	electric wire to the top so he doesn't chew on our new fence! :-)
    
    	Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!
    
    	You can reply here or also send me mail @ Toth::ZBrown
    
    	Thanks *so* much everyone!!!!!
    	
    	Zina & Prudential :-)

    Zina-
    
    If you are not super worried about looks, consider using the
    "slabs" from the lumber mill as rails.  That's what we
    did, and the cost was a total of $5.00.  Yes, that's
    5 bucks.  Slabs are the four sides they cut off the log,
    at the first stage in creating lumber.  
    They still have the bark on them.  Our local sawmill
    sells them for $1 a pickuptruck load. 
    
    Lynne

    I have a fence made of rough cut boards, and I *hate* it.  I am forever
    removing splinters from my hands.  I am gradually replacing it.  Well,
    not so gradually, since the rough cut pine (1") breaks when one of the
    horses even *thinks* about kicking it.  So I'd definitely recommend the
    2" boards.
    
    At my last farm, I used 8-foot pressure-treated 2x6's.  Yes, they were
    expensive, but I was replacing fence, not doing  whole lot at once, so
    it wasn't such a financial hit.  An added advantage to the pressure
    treated wood was that the horses didn't chew it.  I also used electric
    fencing on the top rail to keep them from leaning over it to play with
    their buddies in the next paddock.
    
    Another thing you might consider is vinyl strip fencing.  This is a 6"
    "ribbon" of heavy vinyl, with a wire embedded at each edge.  You attach
    it to the fence posts with some sort of special attachers.  It comes to
    about the same price as wood, I've been told.  A benefit is that when a
    horse runs into it it gives enough to prevent a lot of injuries.  I
    thought of using it for the yearlings' paddock, but ended up moving for
    other reasons, and going out of the breeding business.
    
    If you talk to the salesmen of this stuff, they go into a big deal
    about keeping the vinyl tight by putting in incredibly elaborate cement
    footed corner posts, blah blah.  Not really necessary.  I saw a place
    with the stuff just put up like ordinary boards, and it looked fine.
    
    Good luck!
    -ellie

    We got away with 1-inch boards, knowing we'd only have quiet horses who
    wouldn't ram into or kick the fence. I recommend using BIG nails, as
    rails like to get loose after a few years. We used 16P nails (also
    called spikes.)

    
    
    	Lynne-
    
    	Could yo give me the name & number of this lumber yard?
    
    	Thanks very much for replying *so* fast!!! :-)
    
    	Zina

    When I redid my fence, it was with a foal in mind.  I used 4x4x8
    PT posts, 10 feet apart, rolls of wire with 2" x 4" squares 48"
    tall.  Across the top of the wire I used 1x6x10 boards.  Remember
    if you only put wire on the top rail, there is nothing to stop them
    from chewing the bottom rails.    

    
    
    	Thanks *so* much everyone for the reply's, I knew I could count
    	on everyone in here for help!  
    
    	Keepim comin...:-) :-)
    
    	Zina & Prudential

    I forgot to mention...I get all my lumber at Binghams in Brookline, NH.
    They seem to be the cheapest.
    
    Linda

    From experience, I would suggest that you use 2 inch thick boards. A
    lumber yard usually sells "nominal" sized lumber. That means that what
    they call 1 inch stock is about 3/4 inches thick and 2 inch stock is
    about 1.5 inches. I would also recommend that you use 16 foot boards 
    instead of 8 footers.
    
    Stagger the joints so that all 3 boards of a 3 rail fence are not
    on the same post. You do that by starting the top and bottom rail with
    16 footers and the middle rail with an 8 footer. The result is a *MUCH*
    stronger fence than one made with 8 footers or with all joints on the
    same post.
    
    Put the boards on the *INSIDE* so if the horses lean on them they don't 
    push the boards off. This is important. If you put the boards on the 
    outside, it is *QUITE* easy for a horse to push them off especially if
    you have used ordinary nails. For example, when we moved into our new 
    place, there was a barn and a small paddock already on it. The fence
    was wood and the boards were on the outside. We had to use it that way
    for a while. Before I got around to doing anything about it, I came
    home to find the gelding wandering around the yard. He had been trying
    to get at grass outside the fence and pushed of about 6 boards!
    
    For a board fence, I would recommend that you use nails with ridged
    rings around the shank of the nail instead of ordinary nails. They are
    much harder for a horse to push out; they don't pop themselves out like
    ordinary nails either. You may have to special order them at a lumberyard
    especially if you want to use 16d nails which is the minimum size you
    should use for 2 inch boards. If you can't get the ringed nails, try
    for nails coated with rosin or something else that will make them more
    secure than a 16d common nail.
    
    The boards should be spaced about 10 inches apart vertically with the
    bottom board about 13 inches off the ground. That way you can get a
    lawn mower under the fence if you want to and the additional space at
    the bottom makes the boards appear evenly spaced because the grass
    sticks up a couple inches.
    
    Set your posts a full 3 feet in the ground. A friend and former neighbor
    had the habit of going maybe 30 inches deep and if he hit a rock before
    he got to 30 inches, he'd stop there and cut off the post so it looked
    right! His fences always wobbled especially in New England's mud season
    when horses were shedding and rubbing on the fence!
    
    If you can get pressure treated boards, I would recommend them too. The
    plain old 2x6's rot *VERY* quickly and then they are easy for the horse
    to break, etc. So, the PT boards will last longer and in the long run
    be cheaper because you'll replace them less frequently. The PT may not
    even be that much more expensive. About 6 years ago, I went to the
    lumber yard and discovered than in some sizes the PT lumber is cheaper
    than comparable untreated stuff. I was shocked but the guy said that
    some of the less pricey timber took the treatment better than stuff
    like Douglas Fir. So check around and see what you come up with.
    
    One last thought about the boards, you might look into the PT boards
    they sell for decks and so forth. I think you can get full thickness
    5/4 stock(1.25 inches thick) in that stuff. I would be nearly as thick
    as 2x6 stock and probably cheaper than PT 2x6's.
    
    Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
    John

    Hi Zina,
    
    I would suggest the slabs if you are looking to save money, as well.
    If you are going to hot wire your electric, the horses aren't likely
    to mess with the fence at all so they should hold up. I just last week
    finished fencing in about 2 acres with them, and I too have two strands
    of electric, one along the top and one midway down. Neither of my
    horses has shown any sign of attempting to mess with it. Also you can
    be selective about the slabs you take, some are much sturdier than
    others. I got a van load for free, and the guy told me I could come
    take as much as I wanted, just have to go on the right day as they
    chip them up when the pile starts getting big (every few days). The
    place I got them from is Sanborn's Lumber in Weare NH. There's also
    a sawmill down the road from my house that will give them away, but
    he doesn't have very much as business has been pretty slow for him.
    Heck, I even think the slabs look kinda 'rustic'! :-) Good luck, it's
    a lot of work having them at home but well worth it!
    

    Zina,
    
    I would look at different fences before you begin.  This will give you
    an idea of good construction technique and the look of different
    material.  If you can get pressure treated boards for the same price as
    non-treated then you should but if not they don't (in my experience
    anyway) buy you much more life.  I would not use anything but pressure
    treated posts since the non-treated variety will definately rot away in
    New England in about 4-6 years (except for cedar).  You should be
    careful when comparing boards since different types of wood have very
    different charactoristics.  If the horses can put their heads between
    the boards to get at the grass on the other side (something they will
    do even if they are standing knee deep in grass), you should go with
    two inch thick boards.  This is because boards under gradual pressure
    (horses leaning) act differently than boards under transient pressure
    (horses kicking).  After having tried many different types of fences
    I've settled on pressure treated posts, 1"X6"X16' rough cut boards (in
    a three rail configuration), five foot high 2"X4" keystone wire fence 
    on the inside (to deter the beaver instincts), with a single strand of
    electic wire on top.  This is a pretty expensive way to go but will
    keep even the most determined horse in check.  Note that this is still
    not maintenance free!  Also remember that electric fencing doesn't work
    reliably if the wire is broken or shorted by snow, rain, tall weeds,
    trees, or almost anything that touches it.  Electric wire should be
    checked often to make sure that the wire is not broken and laying in
    the paddock.  Your horse used to have a propensity for this and it
    probably wouldn't take much to sharpen his get-into-trouble skills.
    
    Good Luck with your project!
    
    Bob
     

    re -1
    
    I agree with everything you recommend except for the cedar posts.  I
    once put some in and then had to dig a few up a year later to move the
    fence (yuk!) and although they looked fine above the ground, there was
    almost nothing left below ground level!!  Yikes!!!  That's what made me
    switch to pressure treated.  I had occasion to dig one of these up
    after it had been in 3 years (horse ran directly into it and broke it
    in half) and it looked the same as the day I put it in.  It's the only
    thing I bother to dig the hole for now!
    
    -e

    Yeah I agree w/ .31 that cedar doesn't last anywhere near what people
    claim. There are lots of cedar posts available here in the great NW and
    people use them a lot. But they seem to rot *VERY* quickly below ground
    and even at ground level. I've pulled up and replaced enough of them
    that I wouldn't even consider anything but PT posts.
    
    Sorry to hear that others' experience w/ PT rails wasn't as positive as
    mine. I've always had the untreated stuff rot out real quickly and the
    PT rails that I used lasted for 10+ years
    
    Good luck with the project

    I didn't mean to recommend cedar but in some types of soil I think they
    do better than non-treated posts but nowhere near pressure treated.  I
    have some from the previous owner (circa 1965) that are still solid
    under the ground, and under water for that matter.  I agree with .31, I
    wouldn't put anything but pressure treated in the ground.  Same
    experience... dug one up after ten years and its like the day it was
    put in.
    
    Bob
    

    
    
    	Boy' you guys are *great*!!!!  Thanks *very* much everyone
    	for all this info!  We went with the PT posts and I think we
    	may use the 1x6x14 that Bob mentioned and stagger them for
    	more strength.  Like Bob said, Pru is tricky one! :-)
    
    	Thanks again everyone!!!!!
    
    	Zina & Prudential & Kendall<--(The fence maker) ;-)
    

    I think Bob recommended 1x6x16 NOT 1x6x14

    Another question on preparing property for horses.
    I moved in to a house in Hollis NH this Winter.  We have about six
    acres of land and I'd like to eventually keep two horses there with a
    small barn and fenced-in pasture.  How do I identify any potentially
    hazardous plants that are growing in the pasture area?  How big a
    concern is this?  
    
    Also, there are quite a few trees in the area I want to fence.  Should
    I remove all of them, or leave some for shade?  If I leave some, will
    the horses chew on them?  We didn't have this problem in Colorado, as
    we had no trees  ;-)
    
    Thanks.

    
    Yes, leave a nice group of trees for shade/protection.  
    
    Yes, they will chew on them, especially if they are hardwood
    trees, like oak or maple.  They eat the bark.  They will chew
    pine, but prefer the oak or maple.
    
    re Hazardous plants - Contact your local animal control officer
    and ask what you should be on the lookout for.  Also, call and
    ask a local vet the same question.  They both should know....

    Leave some trees but I'd cut down all black cherry trees and red maple
    trees because they are poisoinous. The bark and leaves of black cherry
    trees contain cyanide in small amounts. The leaves of red maples are
    toxic especially when wilted on a broken branch or hit by a frost.
    
    The county agent is another resource for info on plant hazards.

    Gordon DeWolf has written a book on poisonous plants for horses.  It
    may be in your library.  
    
    I will get the name of it this weekend if anyone is interested.
    
    Kathie
    

    Yes, please do give us the name of it.  Thanks!

    
    
    I just finished building a corral for my wife's horses.  I basically
    printed out .28 and followed it to the letter. 8-)  
    
    16' pressure treated 2x6's, staggered across the posts
    8' pressure treated 4x6 posts, an honest 3' deep  
    16D galvanized nails
    concrete on the corner and end posts
    
    I nailed all of the 2x6's to the inside of the posts.  I also
    tamped down the dirt in the post holes 1 inch at a time, which really
    made a difference in the stability of the post!  I used 3 rails
    for most of the fence and a 4th where the lay-of-the-land made for
    a more consistent 5' top-rail height.
    
    The result is an an *extremely* strong fence.  Most of our
    horse friends think I'm nuts for building it this way,
    but I'll sleep better knowing that if they get out of this one,
    they'll *really* have to work at it. 
    
    Kevin
     
    
    
      

    Kevin,
    
    You'll be glad you did it all right from the start!
    
    That's very similar to my own, except I used 2x4's for the rails.  And
    only my posts are pressure treated - if they chew the rails, I don't
    have to worry about their chemical intake and replacement costs are
    considerably less.  I cemented in *all* the posts, and I also added 
    electric between the rails to discourage chewing and escape attempts.  
    Most of this is about 6 years old now, some is only about 3.  
    
    So far, so good! I havent' had to replace a single board, and the only 
    escapee was a 20+ year old pony who could have put Houdini to shame (she 
    blissfully ignored the electric, pushed it up, scunched herself, and 
    crawled between the bottom and middle rails).