Conference noted::equitation

    sitting position, is that the position where you approach a jump
    and as the horse comes up, you go forward (what we called a BOW over
    the jump) and this made the hands go with the horse ??
    Argh i could never do that..
    anyways its suposed to be a more secure seat/way of jumping .
    
    		wendy o'
    

    
    Using a 'half seat' is a good way to get started jumping.  And it is
    very useful over lower jumps and in the hunter ring.  (You don't see
    hunter riders grinding their seats into the horses backs unless the
    horse is refusing.)
    
    Many of the good CT folks try to use a half seat when schooling their
    young horses and in the lower divisions.  Sitting and driving doesn't
    usually come into play until higher and more tricky fences.
    
    I attended a clinic with one of ex-Olympic team CT folks who got after
    folks for sitting on the backs of their young, less experienced horses
    going over low jumps -- "If your horse is schooled so that you have to
    grind and driver over these low fences, what do you think you will have 
    to do over some REAL fences..."

    You two must favor hunters.  Your attitude is showing !

    My few lessons in this area were not to DRIVE a horse over a fence, 
    but to just sit and jump the fence as the 'correct' way to do it.  

    I attended a pre-novice event last summer, my sister's sister-in-law
    competed and it was obivious which riders were hunters and which
    were balance seat / CT trained.

    The CT riders I had known would just say "you can't jump down a bank
    in a forward seat", hunt seat blah blah blah blah.

    I'm looking for explainations from your brains, not your emotions.

    re.4
    
    I usually dont jump, I jump in hunter (open) when i needed to make up 
    points :*} other than that i did hunter hack. I couldnt tell you the 
    difference between the two , only the sitting ( i think is what i 
    would say is like bowing into the horses crest) it was hard to do and 
    it was supposed to be a secure seat.. 
    
    to be honest  i dont know what a real hunter is and what different area
    of jumping there are..  I have good equitation (ok i used to :*) )
    
    anyone that can enlighten me on all this , i would appreciate it.
    
    	wendy o'
    

    
    
    
    
    RE: the following
    
>================================================================================
>Note 1465.0                      Jumping styles                        5 replies
>KAHALA::HOLMES                                       19 lines  29-APR-1991 13:41
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Anyone care to explain & compare jumping methods ?  I am interested
>    in understanding pros and cons.  Any and all opinions welcome.

                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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    then 
    
>================================================================================
>Note 1465.4                      Jumping styles                           4 of 5
>KAHALA::HOLMES                                       13 lines  30-APR-1991 09:15
>                            -< some clarification >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    You two must favor hunters.  Your attitude is showing !
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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    I guess the first note was not accurate?  ;-)    
    
    I just prefer the George Morris/Gordon Wright/DeNemethy method of
    getting over a fence.  Just my opinion.
    

    I would think a great deal of how you ride your fences depends on the
    horse you are riding. A lot of equitation riders, most of them, are on
    very well mannered, easy to ride, experienced horses that are going to
    go over the fence as long as the rider does not do anything incredibly
    wrong. It's easy to 'pose' on this type of horse, and there's no real
    need to stay as close to the saddle as when riding x-country course,
    or a hot horse. My own horses are good examples, I ride a TB gelding
    who is one of those who, once you SET MODE, will go until you CHANGE
    MODE. He's very comfortable, very quiet, and very steady. Whether 
    I keep my seat in the saddle or come up into a more hunter/equitation
    style pose makes no difference to him. My Standardbred mare is actually
    a more athletic horse, but will never be a hunter. She has the look
    but not the personality, she's far too hot and unpredictable. She's
    a willing enough jumper, TOO willing. She rushes badly when cantering
    fences, if I don't keep my seat deep it's disasterous. I've been
    working her lately just walking small fences, sitting deep and 
    maintaining contact while bringing only my upper body forward over
    the fence. I cant' imagine getting up and crest-releasing equitation-
    style on her, she just would not maintain any semblance of pace at all.
    I dont ride x-country often, don't have a suitable event horse right
    now, but I've seen it often enough....seems like most successful
    event horses would have to be a bit hot-headed to get the speed you
    need out of them, and probably need to be ridden by secure seated
    riders rather than a rider who is concerned with how they look
    formwise. Also some of the fences would pose a problem for an
    equitation-concerned rider...imagine jumping a large bank, or
    into a water jump, or a tricky combination with no good security
    to keep you in the saddle.
    

    re. last
    
    >i cant imagine getting up and using crest release.. 
    
    ok the crest relese i'm thinking of is sitting into the saddle and
    bowing into the horse. I know nothing about jumping, really..
    I had a mare that was very hot and lots of power , i used the sitting
    when
    coming up to the jjump and then i would bring myself over the horse as
    i felt her come up into my hands. Like i siad I really dont know how
    the jump , however i operate on instinct only , whatever feels right
    and
    how the horse reacts to me. 
    
    	wendy o'
    
    

    Re: .4
    I knew that was going to get me in trouble but ..... could not
    help myself.

    I was trying to ask that this topic become "explain how and why"
    and not a "I'm right and those other guys are wrong" note which is
    the the type of answer usually given by an instructor of either
    discipline.  Youv'all heard it.  The eventers are nuts and the hunters
    just pose.

    Thank you LCOBURN  !!!

    Now, if we can create a note of adjectives that cannot be used
    in this file we might all put aside our learned prejudices.

    Thanks,
    Bill

    (I promise Il'l never try to preach in here again.)

    MAKE THAT:  I promise Il'l try to never preach in here again.

 <<< Note 1465.3 by CSC32::M_HOEPNER "Standing on the edge is not the same" >>>

    Thank you Mary Jo, for posting that explanation of when/why to use
    one style over another. I have taken lessons from hunter and event
    instructors and from that experience I have to agree about staying 
    off the horse's back when they are green and not jumping the big 
    stuff yet. 
        

    The most important point for a rider to remember when jumping is not to
    interfere with the horse once it is committed to jumping the fence. A
    push button hunter may be committed to jumping a fence five strides in
    front of it. A green horse may not be committed until his feet have
    left the ground! The horse must be able to balance himself and the
    rider mustn't upset that balance or they'll end up in a heap on the
    ground. An important part of jumping is learning how to ride
    out refusals and to understand why the horse refused. 

    re.last
    oh so it sounds like i havent been jumping wrong :*}
    
    I took lessons from edie at brindleledge like 3 years ago and she
    put me on one horse and then after one lesson i was riding her 
    jumper. She told my dad I was a natural and had no fear over any 
    jumps she put me over. (never i dont know if i would have that same 
    attitude) anyways i only ended but taking like three our lessons 
    off of her because I ended up schooling my horse that year for green
    hunter at registered shows..
    
    		wendy o'

   I have not competed in combined training in quite a while, but as far as I
   recall...

   You've got the cross country and the stadium portion of the event.  Both
   are quite different and most people use different jumping style for each.

   First: X Country

   When riding cross country, you are covering a much greater distance than 
   in the stadium phase.  There is a time limit you have to make (usually no
   problem until you hit the higher levels) and the obstacles are usually 
   spaced out at a fairly good distance from each other.  

   I usually jacked my stirrups up three holes from my dressage length.  This
   makes it easier for the rider to get off the horses back. The idea is to
   encourage a relaxed, unrestricted foward movement at whaterevr pace you
   set (ie: trot/hand-gallop/full-gallop).  Most riders ride the whole course 
   in a half seat, sitting only when they feel the need to drive their horse 
   foward or keep the horse between their legs better.  If a horse is trained
   to think "foward", they aren't as likely to quit, or run out at fences unless
   the rider hesitates or skrews up.  Cross country is an endurance phase and 
   getting off the horses back saves him energy for the next phase.  

   Stadium:

   The stadium phase consists of a course of fences in an enclosed ring or in
   a big field.  The fences are like hunter show fences and they are positioned
   in close proximity to one another and there are usually oxers, double or 
   triple combinations set at various lengths apart, verticles, and sometimes
   even a water jump (or blue plastic).  Since the fences are much closer to-
   gether, it takes alot more control to manuver through the jumps and around
   the corners of the course.  I usually drop my stirrups one hole from my
   X-country length (2 holes up from dressage length).  While the stadium phase 
   usually ridden in the half seat as well, the slightly longer stirrup length
   allows the rider to sit in a little if needed and allows them to keep the
   horse between their legs better.  Control is key in this phase and it is
   very important to keep the horse moving foward, yet controlled and straight.

   I think everyone has their own jumping style depending on their riding
   background.  Many eventers are former hunt seat riders.  I agree with the
   other replies in that it depends on the horse, as well as the type of 
   jumping you are doing that dictates the style used.

   I have also noticed that most jumping disciplines are similar in that they
   discourage restriction of the horse's head (personally, I hate standing
   martingales - use a running martingale if you must) and encourage only a
   slight closure of the hip angle with hands following with the horses' head 
   as he stretches over the fence.  Many people ride a 1 ft fence as though it
   were a 10 ft fence.   
  
   I hope this helps,

   Simone

    
    Well it's nice to see a topic in the equitation notesfile which has 
    sparked off more than 3 replies for a change. I don't mind if we wander
    off the original question or if someone preaches a bit.
    
    I registered my horse with the SJAI  (Show Jumping Association of
    Ireland)  for the first time this year  and have  thoroughly enjoyed my
    first few outings with the "professionals". 
    
    My advice to anyone who seriously wants to learn quickly, and for their
    horse to gain good experience is to join their local equivelent. Most
    of my lessons have been learnt in the warm-up paddock and not always
    while riding, just being there is an education.
    
    Watching the professionals, how they warm their horses up on the flat, how
    they buildup a horses confidence from basics even before a Puissance
    competition starting with a 2 foot crosspole fence.
    Trotting into jumps even at over  4 feet whereas us amateurs feel the
    need for MACH 2 in the approach to anything over 3 feet.
    
    Another advantage of "Registered" shows is that professional course
    builders actually build the course and know what a tight turn looks
    like and also have the combination fences at the right distance. There
    is nothing worse for ruining a good young horse's confidence that a long
    double with the second part as a wide oxer which a young horse hangs his
    back legs on. He certainly won't like the next oxer too much.
    
    Let's get back to the subject then. 
    
    Seats.
     
    There is a very good book on training the Showjumper by someone Paalman
    I don't remember his name now but it is readily available here in the UK. If
    you can't get it in the states drop me a mail and I'll see what I can
    do. He is a world renouned trainer of Showjumpers (horses and Riders)
    and in it he explains the need for all the different seats ie.
    
    Dressage,parade,light,forward etc, etc.
    
    Basically what he says is that young horse ie up to 5 or 6 depending on
    their physical developement should never be ridden in a dressage or
    parade seat for more than a few seconds and sitting trot should not be 
    attempted unless the rider is of a very good standard.  
    
    Going back to the professionals again I was at Royal Windsor Horse Show
    last Friday and watched both John Whittaker and Harvey Smith warm up
    their young animals for the grade C/D class and they have the same
    routine as for their Grand Prix horses, but, you can see in the ring a
    difference in their seats between the two classes of horses. They have
    to ride the horses more and be more prepared for a stop etc. etc. and they
    don't look quit so relaxed and composed as when they are riding the
    likes of Henderson's Milton to Win the Volvo World Championship.
    
    So again I say it's good to see a good chat going on in here again and
    if you want a good honest Irish horse I have a few on the books for
    sale at the moment.
    
    
    			RGDS
    			Gareth
     

    Hi Gareth,
    
    You sound as though you are a real fan of Irish bread horses, not
    surprisingly as you live in ireland!
    
    I own an Irish Draught/TB dappled grey gleding I have had him for 5
    years (He came over from Ireland just before I got him at a showjumpers
    yard) and I am a great beleiver in taking things slowly at the
    begining, especially as William is so big (16.3HH) and a real middle
    weight!
    
    I agree I think you can learn a great deal by watching what goes on in
    the collecting rings and trying to listen out to what the trainers are
    saying to their pupils.
    
    
    Wendy

    
    Hi Wendy,
             sorry for the delay but I have just come back into the office
    after a week out on the road and a week away at our local international
    show. It was good to see Harvey and Robert Smith here and also David
    Broome back after a few years absence. Belfast ain't such a bad place
    after all.
    
    A real good sort of x-bred you have and very popular in Ireland and
    Britain. Though with the increased emphasis on speed rather than
    jumping ability (unfortunately) the pure thoroughbred is making a big
    comeback.
    
    The French won the Nations cup on Sunday at Hickstead but I must say
    that they won it on jumping ability and they have have a superb team at
    the moment.
    
    There is quite a bit of press talk over here at the moment on the drop
    of standard of riding by the US riders since they changed their
    National Coach. Is this being said over there as well?? Certainly what
    I have seen on satelite would tend to agree. A few years ago the US
    riders were in a class of their own for stylish riding.
    
    Anyway must go and do a bit of work,
    
    
    			RGDS
    			Gareth