Conference noted::equitation

    I am just curious to know, what sort of vaccine did they make out of
    his blood and why?
    
    With regards to his gallopping off, what sort of bit are you riding him 
    in?   Maybe you need to put a stronger bit or another noseband so you
    have got a bit of control.  Have you consulted a riding instructor 
    with this problem?
    
    Wendy

What kind of trotter is he?  Do you mean a Missouri Foxtrotter?  Or do you just
mean a horse that was trained to race as a trotter?

I would agree that maybe you need a more aggressive bit.  Look into Tennessee
Walker and Missouri Foxtrotter bits.  These horses tend to need an aggressive
bit, as they are somewhat headstrong.

Ed..

    I would guess you are talking about a former harness racer, a
    Standardbred? My mare is one, and raced for 6 years before I got
    her. I broke her myself, she'd raced about a week before I got
    her and had never been ridden at all, so I can understand your
    confusion. It takes a lot of time, and a lot of patience. I would
    not particularly recommend a stronger bit, he needs to understand
    what you want from him, not forced (and thus scared) into it.
    Try working him in a lot of small circles. Does he canter at all,
    or are walk/trot/gallop his only gaits? My mare was terrified to
    canter at first, they are punished for it as race-horses, and it 
    took a lot of patience and consistency to help her understand that
    it was now the right thing to do. She has learned now, and does
    fine, but she is volitile and strong. You need to establish a
    good relationship with him, and give him a lot of encouragement.
    Don't let a lot of different people ride him, if he's anything like
    mine it will only confused upset him. If you can, I would recommend
    going to a really good instructor, try to find someone with experience
    with harness racers. They are wonderful horses, very giving and
    real tryers. It sounds like yours just does not understand what you
    want of him....horses have excellent memories and their early training
    stays with them for life, it takes time and patience to retrain them.
    Good luck!
    
    BTW, there are several other topics on Standardbreds in here, do
    SHOW KEYWORD STANDARDBREDS for a listing.
    

    I agree with .3.....and also want to add that you need
    to work with him to enforce "Whoa".   He must listen to
    you and obey when you ask him to stop.  A trick to enforce
    the whoa command is to walk/trot (not canter)the horse in the
    ring, aim at and ride directly at the fence, and use the
    fence as a tool to help stop the horse, while giving the
    whoa command.  For instance, when you are riding up the 
    side of the ring, instead of turning the horse, ride into the
    corner and give the "whoa" command.  Zigzag back and forth
    from one side to the other, head on at the fence, give whoa
    command, horse stops completely, praise horse, give horse
    walk commmand, turn hourse and head back across.
    
    
    Lynne

    RE:  last  "these type of horses never learn whoa."  I
    have two standardbred mares that both know exactly what
    the word "whoa" means, and I just have to say it once and
    they come down to a walk.  Standardbreds for the most part
    are a very intelligent, level headed breed, though just like
    all breeds, there are exceptions.  The basenoters horse may
    have a deeper problem, like bad teeth, or maybe he got chased
    by something in a field and its his instinct to run.  I have
    broken at least 10 harness horses to saddle and have never had
    a problem like the one described here, maybe the horse enjoys
    galloping!  Horses aren't necessarily punished when they gallop,
    what good does that do, make them gallop faster?  After they make
    a break they are pulled back to the trot or pace, whichever they
    do and let go on from there.  I have seen horses in races make
    a break coming off the gate, get away dead last and come back to 
    win the race.  Usually if a horse is making repeated breaks, either
    in training or racing, there is another problem, his equipment isn't
    fitting properly, he is crossfiring so his shoeing is wrong, or the
    person driving him has hands that are too heavy.  Like we all know,
    all horses are different and all horses are broken differently!!!
                                                                     

    Re .5 - Having worked with & around many ex-raceshorses of
    all types, I still have to say that many (NOT ALL) do not
    learn "whoa".  Your standardbreds sound like they were given
    more than the usual training afforded to a racehorse.  Most
    racehorses know only one thing.....Someone gets on their back,
    they get whipped to run around the track, they get caught by 
    an outrider,and are led back to to their stalls.  Same thing 
    with a harness horse.  My neighbors standardbred (an ex-racehorse)
    doesn't understand whoa.  But, a thoroughbred a friend bought had
    been trained as a racehorse, was injured and given away, and had
    received saddlehorse training by the owners who raced him.
    He had the concept of whoa (though he had to be worked with to 
    polish it)  Many of the thoroughbreds at the barn where I boarded
    were ex-racehorses.  They all needed to be taught, whoa, among other
    things.  
    
    Lynne
    
    

    Hello again!
    
    Just to calm your curiosity: They make vaccine from horses the same
    way I guess they do for human. They inject some disease into the
    serumhorse, wait until he develops antibodies and then draw blood from
    him, and use the antibodies for vaccine.
    As for the stronger bit: I hade a normal, thick bit, and a pelham bit
    (the one with the chain under the chin) but it really doesn't make any
    difference when he runs off...
    The only bit that stopped him from running was some kind of cowboy bit
    I tried for a while. It was marvellous at the beginning - I didn't need
    to pull in his mouth or anything - he obeyed instantly. But after a while
    something happened. I had two friends who used to ride him - and
    someone must have pulled too hard at some time, because the horse
    started to go backwards, didn't want to go ahead at all. I took that
    bit off and haven't used it since.
    Anyway, I think changing the bit is just a temporary solution- I would
    like to understand WHAT is causing this behaviour. I guess it's nearly
    impossible, but perhaps something you tell will help me.
    -Whoa? I've never heard of it. Is that the same thing as the "Ptrooo"
    you say when you want the horse to slow down? If it is, I think I'm saying
    ptroo in my sleep...
    But thank you very much for you replies. I'll keep on training, and I
    will try to find a good instructor - there are not many interested in
    shaping up old harness trotters. (I really don't know what breed they
    are here in Sweden, I guess they are related with the American
    Standardbred -?-)
    
    Addi.
                                               

    Hi Lynne,
    
    It is unfortunate that many of the horses you have come across don't
    seem to have any manners.  I don't know if we are just lucky, but the
    majority of the horses at the barn where I am at (maybe 20 of them)
    there are only a couple that I would say don't have manners.  The ones
    I speak of were horses that were raised on big farms and didn't receive
    much handling.  When I broke my filly, I would harness her inside the 
    barn, walk her out, tell her to stand, let go of her and walk behind
    her to pick up my jog cart and get her hooked in.  She stood like a
    a good one!  Once in a while she would take a step and all I had to 
    do was repeat stand and she would stop.   It is unfortunate that you 
    think all we do is take our horses on the track and whip them.  I 
    invite anyone to come to the fairgrounds where I keep my horses and
    watch us in training.  All the whip does is sour a horse, and a sour
    horse has absolutely no interest in racing and obviously will make you
    no money.   For a horse to be a decent racehorse, it has to be in their
    blood, they have to love the competition, and its very easy to see the
    ones who do.  When I had my filly going last fall, she had only been
    broken and jogging about 2 months and I was on the track jogging.  
    Someone else was also out there with his 2 year old stud cold, going
    along at a pretty good pace.  I had no idea what my filly would do so
    I just took hold and sat tight.  When this horse got next her, she
    put her tail up over her back, took off pacing and kept up with that 
    horse for over a quarter of a mile.  I didn't whip her, I didn't even 
    ask her to go on, I let her do what she wanted and she showed me that 
    she is really interested in being a racehorse.  For every horse that
    makes it to the races, there are probably 6 or 7 that don't have the
    interest or aren't fast enough.  When I take my horse to the races, I
    tell the driver how I want him to drive my horse, and if I feel that
    he doesn't do what I ask or uses the whip too much, he will never
    drive my horse again.  I know my horse better than anyone else, and
    I know that she will try her heart out for anyone and I know that 
    she doesn't need the whip.  Like I said in my last reply, all horses
    are trained different and everybody has different ways of doing things
    with their horses, be it right or wrong.

    My Stdbrd mare certainly knew Whoa when I got her, her problem has
    always been the standing still part *after* the stop....not a problem
    I attribute to her racing career at all. She *was* terrified to break
    into a canter/gallop at first, though. She'd break and instantly stop
    and bring her head way up, obviously anticipating punishment. I don;t
    think that in the mind of a horse punishment must be physical, such
    as a crack of the whip. The horse only has to reasoning power to know
    that whenever it breaks gait, it's human counterpart instantly stops
    it. I would think that being stopped from doing something is, in the
    mind of a horse, a form of punishment. Thus the horse knows it did
    wrong. I certainly don't think all race horses are treated badly,
    there seem to be some responsible trainers around. My brother's TB
    raced for 2 years, and he too has always been well versed in Whoa.
    But then, this is an unusual TB all around, he's remarkably quite
    and judging from his personality I'd have to say he was defineatly
    one of those race horses who was "running scared" when he raced.
    He has absolutely no inclination to do anything fast in the least,
    yet he won 6-7 races I believe before he was injured. If I were
    in the basenoters shoes I would use a normal snaffle on the horse
    and allow him time to realize that he can break the gait he's
    been programmed to hold without fear of reprisal. Do it in a
    small area (open fields are temptation for any horse!) where you
    yourself do not have to worry about him running off, he may be
    picking up on your own fear of him running off as well.
    

    Just a thought -
    
    How about teaching the horse to canter on a longe line, using a voice
    command?  Maybe cantering on a longe would be less stressful to him,
    and he might learn that there's nothing frightening about it.  Then,
    once he's used to the voice command for a canter and does it
    consistently on the longe, you could try it while riding.  Maybe even
    try it with you on his back, while someone else longes him.
    
    I've found that the easiest way to teach a horse to break into a canter
    on the longe is to time your aids precisely.  When the horse is
    trotting, watch his outside foreleg as it strikes the ground, and then
    time your aids with it.  What I do is start counting out loud each time
    the off fore hits the ground: 1, 2, 3, then I say "canter".  The horse
    soon learns that the "1, 2, 3" means he's going to be asked to canter
    very soon, and this helps him collect and balance himself.  Timing it
    with the off fore this way assures that he almost *has* to take the
    correct lead.
    
    Give it a try.  I've used this with Thoroughbreds off the track, who
    tend to get excited and goofy when they canter under saddle.

    Re .8, 9 - Unfortunately, not all owners/trainers are like you.
    I have to disagree in that, IMHO, there are more poor trainers
    /owners/handlers of all type racehorses then there are good ones.
    Very few are in it for anything but the $$$, and seeing the 
    condition of many of the ex-racehorses my barn used to accept
    to try to heal & make them a saddlehorse, and seeing the condition
    of some of them when they have been raced until they are nothing
    but bones, and then injure themselves.....I fell in love with this
    one gelding who must have been 17+ hds, 200 lbs underweight and
    with a *nice* matching set of bucked shins.  He was brought in with
    one of his stablemates, a filly with sesimoid problems.  I used
    to go visit him, give him some attention (he was starved for attention,
    too, and he would beg for a scratch and a carrot) and
    helped feed him, brush him, etc.  He wasn't that good, so he was
    raced until he broke-down, then given some time to heal up, and
    then back to the track.  The filly was #1 rated in whatever racing
    circuit she was in.  He had no idea what turnout was, and after
    an almost disaster with him trying to go through the fence when
    we tried, the best we could do was let him out in the round pen,
    which he couldn't hurt himself in.
    I have met those like you, who care.....They had a stall for rent
    and I ended up talking about & meeting all their harness horses.
    One filly was a top class racer, only she hated it...to the point
    of refusing to eat or drink while on the circuit.  They retired
    her from the track rather than see her unhappy.  All were Standard-
    breds, and clean, well-fed, friendly, sassy (o.k., spoiled :-))
    horses.
     
    

    Lynne,
    
    I have to ask, was the last name of the people you met who had a 
    stall for rent DiDonato?? In North Reading Mass? I am asking because
    these people used to rent out a stall or two, and had Standardbreds.
    One in particular was a real successful mare who had to be raced
    off the farm because she, like you described, hated it and would
    not eat or drink at the track. They retired her from racing, and
    I bought her dirt cheap. She's a wonderful riding horse now, still
    extremely spoiled, and the mother of two of their others. It justed
    sounded so coincidental, I had to ask if you remembered their name!
    
    Linda
    

    Re .12 - YES!  Wow!   I used to live in Burlington, MA and
    was looking for a stall back then.......she was a real sweety,
    I was feeding her grass and she was such a cutie.....they said
    they were looking for a good home for her, and that her personality
    dictated she be a saddlehorse.  Wow, again!  Talk about a small
    world...and they were such nice people......
    
    Lynne

    re:  .10
    
    I have to disagree with your comment about people being in the 
    harness racing business just to make money.  This past year, I
    had a loss of $5900, and made $111.  There isn't much money to be
    made racing horses in New England, and with the amount of money
    it costs just to truck a horse 2.5 hours to the track, the people
    doing it have to at least like it!!  Sure, just as in any business
    there are people in it just for the money.  In all my years in the
    racehorse business I have seen more poorly kept, undernourished 
    riding horses than I ever have racehorses.  A racehorse that isn't
    being fed or shod obviously isn't going to make ANY money!!!  Also,
    the amount of time we spend working at the barn at least a minumum
    of 2 hours per day, usually 2 and a half by the time the horse has
    been jogged, bathed, walked, cooled out, stalls cleaned, equipment
    cleaned, and fed.  The people I know do this because they love horses
    not because they are trying to make an extra buck, because unless you
    have a horse that is good enough to race in NJ or NY, your chances
    of showing a profit are nil!

    RE. Lynne,
    
    That IS fascinating! I thought it was such a weird coincidence that
    I just had to ask!  The DiDonato's ARE super people, they live in
    Kentucky now, and are still breeding Standardbreds and Quarter Horses.
    Neither of my mare's kids made it to the track, the filly (you
    probably met her, too, she was in N. Reading about that time) is
    now in Ohio doing pleasure driving for a retired couple. I don't 
    know where her oldest is, but I know he's never raced. Plympy 
    herself is just as they'd hoped she'd be, a super riding horse
    and very much loved. She's a real sweet horse, with a wonderful
    temperment. She's strong under saddle, and not always predictable,
    but we understand each other and I wouldn't trade her for any 
    number of *normal* horses. I think I've been lucky with her in
    that they always treated her well, she was at one time co-owned
    with someone else who was not so good to her, but these people
    spent a lot of time with her and it shows in her manners and
    attitude. I agree that not all race horses are treated well,
    it's sad, and it ruins the reputations of those owners who
    do care for their horses. I feel I'm lucky in that I my own
    mare *was* treated well most of the time.
    

    Re .15 Linda-
    
    They were super people.....I must have gabbed with them for
    about two hours that day!  This was about 4-5 yrs ago, as
    that's when I was looking to bring my QH home.  They showed
    me pictures of their horses, and they had a practice track
    right in the backyard.  
    If I remember....The filly was a dark bay/brown?  So was the
    mare she was in the corral with.  Both loved the attention I
    was giving them, too! :-)   
    They used to race in NY/NJ?  I think that's what Mr. D told
    me.  
    Anyhow, Kentucky, nice place to raise horses.  We also had
    a long talk on QHorses, too.
    
    Lynne

    Hi Lynne...
    
    Yep, both Mom and filly are dark bays, they look a great deal
    alike, actually. They gave me a few pictures of baby, and one
    win picture of my mare...she looks so funny to me all decked
    out in harness and sulky! It's nice to have, though. She raced
    in NY, NJ, Foxboro, and Florida as well. The D's had bought
    her in a claiming race at 18K, they bought half ownership for
    that, then bought out the co-owner when they decided to breed
    her. She had twins once, but both died at a day old or so.
    Their place in KT is gorgeous, I have a standing offer to retire
    my mare there when the time comes, which is a very comforting
    thought to have in the back of my head. They do come back to
    visit their daughter who lives in Mass and have come to visit
    my mare these times, it's really good to see them.  I've had
    my mare 5 years, so the timing is exact, I'm sure it's my
    horse you saw. It's so interesting to meet people who remember
    her, I've run into a few people involved in harness racing
    who remember her racing days....seems she was quite good, and
    stood out in peoples' minds because she's pretty small to be
    so good (she just under 15', and very petite, almost pony-sized
    really). It's a small world, isn't it?? Next time I talk to them
    I'll have to see if they remember you coming up, they probably
    do, they're so friendly and just love to show off their horses!
    
    Linda
    

    I believe a trotter native to Sweden is a local breed and not
    related to an American Standardbred.

    Many of the best Standardbreds are exported to Europe, you could
    have one, but those exported horses are some of the best there are.
    (The NY or NJ million dollar winners)

    In many instances, a harness driver hits the bike or harness
    in a race, not the horse himself.  Drivers are fined for excessive
    use of the whip.  Also you don't want to suprise him to much
    or he could break stride.  You want to wake him up alittle, which I
    think all of us have done at one time or another with a dressage whip
    of crop.

    Someone said it before, your horse has been trained to stay at the
    trot.  I believe the rules in this area state that a driver must pull back
    and get his horse back on gait before continuing.  

    I think I had said this in here before but think it needs repeating.

    Sucessful horsemen and women regardless of discipline, (Dressage, Hunters,
    CT, Western reining, Racing, {50 mile trail rides?} ) are always concerned
    about their animals and treat them and train them accordingly.  With this 
    in mind, you can't believe horses in training for say Dressage don't break
    down, the problem with racing is it happens in public.  End_of_Complaint.

    I think race horses are taught to whoa, but it means stop anytime in the
    next 1/4 mile.  He has not been taught to stop on the next step.