Conference noted::equitation

    What I usually do is have them sign a contract when they come in.
    You can get one from a lawyer. 
    I get all there numbers in case of emergencys. They sign a paper to
    have the vet work on the horse in an emergency, at thier cost.
    I get a first and last month rent, non refundable in case they
    leave without notice or thier horse kicks the barn down.
    The contract also states that the board is due on the date agreed on,
    there is a charge of 10.00 per day for every day it is late.
    (That one always gets the board money in on time!) I ran into so many 
    problems with people leaving things around and not picking up after
    themselves that I had to put up a notice that for everything I picked
    up they would have to pay me .50 to get back! That helped because any
    time they have to pay more for ANYTHING is an aggravation to them.
    spell out for them when you want them around. I told my people they
    could stay untill 10:00 at night. No visitors without them. No feeding 
    of the other horses. If some one else comes to ride thier horse I need
    to know ahead of time or they don't ride... things like that have to be 
    put down on paper so everyone knows the rules and can't say "you never
    told me that".
    Also one more thing VERY IMPORTANT make sure they have had all there
    shots up to date and have been wormed BEFORE they come into your barn.
    
    I found that boarding horses is ok if you really need the xtra money,
    but it can get very aggravating if the people don't take care of thier 
    horses the way you do.
    
    I am writing in a hurry so I hope some of this helps!          

    Thanks to .1 and those who sent me mail direct.  I rec'd
    some very good advice & tips.
    
    Lynne

    re: .2
    
    It might be nice for the general public to hear about
    managing a barn.

    As those who sent you mail may want to remain anonymous
    maybe you could include the direct mail messages, removing
    the names ?
    
    Thanks,

    Some questions for the experts. I have been around and had horses most
    of my life but never for Business.
    
    I now have empty box stalls and would like to board a horse or two.
    I placed an AD in here I believe for $230 a month with what I believe
    you call full board in mind. To me that is everything from cleaning
    feet to horse treats in addition to clean stalls, turnout, food, water
    all the expected things.
    
    Recently I saw an AD for $80 a month and "you do everything yourself"
    which sounded real scarey to me unless the people lived real close.
    What does the barn owner do if the horses owner doesn't show up for
    food or water? (I know what I would do, but I am not sure some people
    would even check).
    
    Anyway:  Boarding
    
    - What are the different types?
    - Pro's & Con's ?
    
    
    
    

    You're right. That is scary and lots of people who boarde this way
    don't even check.
    
    For example, our neighbor rents out 10 acre and 4 acre pastures. He
    charges a LOT($200 per month for the 4 acre pasture) and does nothing.
    Sometimes, the people are local(less than 10 miles away) but other
    times they are from as much as 35-40 miles away.
    
    The horses are out in all weather and rarely checked. They sometimes
    get out of the pasture. I found one wandering around my place last 
    winter on a cold dark morning when I was leaving for work(it doesn't 
    get light here until 7:30-8:00 AM in January) The owner lived 40 miles 
    away...so I just put her back in the pasture with the others. There was 
    nothing else I could do. Fortunately, she wasn't injured. but...

    
    
    	I like the arrangement we have..
    
    
    	We pay 110 a month, we buy our own food and water and hay, 
    	we feed a night and we measure grain/hay for the morning feeding
    	
    	The barn manager feeds by 9:00 and lets out the horse at 10:00.
    
    	Works out nice, if we need the horse left in we write a note
    	on the bulletin board.
    
    	I only live 9 miles away, and me and my husband share the barn
    work. (cleaning stalls, getting hay shavings and water)
    
    	I like it because I know what there getting for food, plus I see
    	them every day.  Also I have people to ride with.
    
    	My sister only pay 165.00 a month full board (great deal)
    
    	Donna

    
    I guess these notes are the route of my personal concern.
    
    - I don't know how to advertise because basically any arrangement
      that guaranteed the good care and timely feeding would be Ok with
      us.
    
    - I could not handle an irresponsible horse owner.
    
    - My price might be a little high for full board but it is
      based on a lot of work and hay. Unlike Stables I visit I
      give our horses all the hay they can eat. (There are a couple
      of noters in here who could attest to my horses being a little
      porky.) Grain is fed specific to the horse's needs.
      If bag shaving didn't cost so darn much it would be easier to
      cut costs. Plank floors are a pain but warm. Our barn never goes
      below 32F in the winter, 42-55 degree's is average.
    
      How do you advertise for any reasonable arrangement?

    I see ads up all the time in local tack shops.
    
    mary

    Ouch, that strung.
    
    Small farm family, would really like a room-mate with horse. I
    wouldn't ask in here if I knew all the answers.
    
    There are no local tack shops. Grain Store in Townsend MA and Milford
    N.H.
    
    Although we are directly behind Townsend Ma RT119 and off RT13 if
    you are coming from the North the most asked question I get is
       ***where is Mason ?*** sounds too far out for most people but
    is not.
    
    I am not a professional...just wanted some feedback.

    What stung?  Huh?  I think I'm misunderstanding this notestring. 
    Sorry.
    
    I thought you were looking for different places/ways to advertise,
    so I mentioned tack shops cause I do a lot of looking in those.  I
    didn't think of grain stores, but I look in there too.
    
    I'm not sure how to totally ensure responsible owners, but if I were 
    looking for 1 or 2 boarders in a private farm, I would first let friends 
    know and maybe local horse organizations, such as nearest pony club. 
    Somewhere around the Leominster there is a riding club -- the
    Northeast somethingorother riding and driving club.  I would let them
    know, too.  For something small and private, I might also ask for
    references -- maybe not last boarding situation, but maybe some
    previous ones.
    
    Offering full board only will ensure that the horses get good basic
    care.  If I offered rough board, I would do morning feed and turnout
    and expect the boarder to do evening plus stalls.  I think its best, in
    this kind of situation, to know the people beforehand if possible.
    
    I would also have drawn up some kind of boarding agreement that gave me
    some rights in the event an owner wasn't responsible and either 1.
    didn't pay bills or 2. didn't show up to care for the horse.
    
    mary

    I'm sorry, I thought I offended you with my lack of knowledge or
    some other comment like my "hay-bellied"mares which is of course by
    personal choice not suggesting it is a good thing, just something I do
    that makes the $$ rack up.
    
    I will have to look around. There are many horses in Mason, a basically
    rich town (not me) but they are on private estates. We have days of
    trails so I meet other riders often.
    
    I am advertising for a room-mate, if I can find one that has a horse
    boarded out or would like to get one I think that would be the best
    situation.
    
    I probably should not put the energy into it until DEC feels a little
    more secure. We just built the (6)stall barn and workshop but I will
    sell this if I leave DEC. Hard times to make any decisions.
    
                              thanks for the feedback.....   amy

    Hi Amy,
    
    
    Before everyone reads this, PLEASE do not assume that I mean
    that ALL rough boarders are like this, that is not always the
    case. I am just giving examples of the FEW bad ones. I have run
    into this situation as I am sure alot of you have. But, I also 
    have seen MANY GOOD rough boarders. So let's not get flamed on here.
    
    This is just "my" personal preference, but I could not be bothered
    with letting someone rough board at my barn for various reasons:
    
    1) they run out of food and start using yours!
    2) they let their horses live in knee high manure in YOUR stall.
    3) they don't bother bug spraying the animal in the field.
    4) the horse gets sporadic amounts of water.
    5) you loose your privacy for $80 a month and YOU get to 
       keep all the manure!
    6) horse is not fed enough and is very thin and someone calls
       the SPCA on YOU!
    
Just my humble 2 cents.
    T

    
    I used to be in a full board it was $250 and they did it all and they
    were wonderful.
    
    I now am on a rough board $60 and I do it all.  There are 2 other
    girls at the barn and we share duties..every 3rd morning I feed
    and so on.
    
    We share everything, we all have a wonderful realationship.  there
    is allwasy someone home and if there is anything wrong w/ the
    horses we are notified asap.
    
    Lou

    Amy,
    
    I'm a little confused about just what your want to discuss, or just
    what sort of advice you are looking for.  Are you wondering what type
    of board you should offer?  Are you actually looking for boarders here?
    Are you wondering where to advertise, or are you looking on advice for
    how to word the ads?
    
    -ellie

    
    How many types of board are there and what are they?
    
    What's a reasonable price to ask?
    
    And I guess how to word the AD comes out of the above.
    
    I lean toward liking full board or a room-mate with a horse
    to board so good care will be guaranteed. Tina's list of bad
    experiences would drive me mad.
    
    
                                                 Amy
    

    As for the types of board, there are *lots* of variables.  It used to
    be that "full" board meant that a groom would bring you your horse, all
    tacked up when you wanted to ride!  Now, generally it means that the
    person who owns the barn pays for feed and bedding, and cleans the
    stall.  Sometimes it also includes putting the horse out during the
    day, but this is not always the case.
    
    The other end of the spectrum, I guess, is simply renting a stall to
    someone....
    
    As for what to charge, you will have to figure out first what it costs
    you.  How much will it cost to feed a horse, how much will bedding
    cost, how much time will you have to spend feeding, watering, mucking,
    and how much an hour do you want to "pay" yourself for that.  Then, if
    you are going to actually run this as a business, and pay taxes, deduct
    expenses (get's tricky here...) how much of your mortgage pays for the
    area used by horses (i.e.what percentage of the barn, and of the land
    is used by boarders) and, if you need extra insurance, how much will
    this cost you.
    
    If you are not going to try anything quite so official (and don't have
    any IRS spies making sure you report your income) then insurance is
    the only thing you have to factor in.  Oh yeah, there's also the fact
    that any boarder's horse, being a horse, will break its share of
    things, which you will have to pay to replace -- fence rails, feed
    bins, whatever.
    
    So sit down and seriously consider all of these things, and figure out
    what you have to charge to make it worthwhile.  Remember also, that if
    you are offering full board, this means you have to be there, or make
    arrangements for someone to do your work, every day of the year,
    Christmas, holidays, vacations....
    
    It might be that your best bet would be, as you mention, a roommate to
    whom you can also rent a stall.  Details of this would have to
    be decided on up front too.  If you want the person to clean the stall
    every day, you have to specify that.  Only you and your potential
    boarder can know what each of you can live with, and you'll have to
    talk it out and get it settled in advance.
    
    good luck!
    
    -ellie

    I need some advice regarding renting out my barn and all the concerns I
    should have regarding this sort of activity.
    
    We just bought a place in Harvard with 4.5 acres and a beautiful 6-stall 
    barn.  ( The house in nice too !!! )  It's a new barn with large box
    stalls and we have 3 large paddocks.   We have conservation land across
    the street to ride in.  The property is located on the side of a hill
    with a tremendous view of Mt Wachusett.  A duck pond is just outside
    one of the paddocks but is on the other guy's land.  
    
    I don't want the responsibility  of owning our own horses but we feel it 
    would add to the atmosphere to have horses grazing in the paddocks.   
    I'd be interested in ROUGH boarding.
    
    A guy called me last night and has 3 horses and a pony.  He's currently
    boarding the horses at 2 seperate locations and would like to
    consolidate ( sounds familiar ??).  He's coming over tomorrow night to
    see the place and discuss business.
    
    Although I've been on my relatives' farms since I was a kid, I never
    ran a business renting to horses.  ( I do rent apartments to real
    people, though ! )   
    
    I guess I should have a lot of questions and concerns with this new
    venture .... and I do.  This is why I'm appealing to all of you horse
    lovers out there.   I have read a few notes in this conference but some
    are a bit outdated.  However, there were some serious concerns
    expressed about this whole idea of boarding .... especially when it
    came to the whacko barn owers.  I don't think we fall into that
    category .... at least not for the time being !!     
    
    So feel free to pour your hearts out and give me all the " I told 
    you so's "  upfront.
    
    First and foremost, would anyone out there have a boarding agreement
    that you could send me ??  I'll even pay for the postage !
    
    2.  What could I expect to get per stall ??  There is a large area
    above the stalls for hay storage and a large, metal-lined grain storage
    box.   There is electricity and water in the barn.  Also has phone
    lines and an intercom.   Would $ 125 be unrealistic given they would 
    pretty much have the run of the barn ???   I would maintain the other
    stalls for our own use / storage.
    
    3.  What about barn rules and regulations that I should address ??
    
    4.  Since we would be renting to only ONE owner, then I think some of
    the concerns about who's taking who's feed, who left the mess, etc
    would go away.  At least I hope so !    What other things fall into
    this category that I should know about ??
    
    5.  I would require that they have their own insurance and show proof
    thereof.  I guess I should also have some liability insurance to cover
    my butt.  Any recommendations in this space ???  Cost ???? Agent ??? 
    
    There must be a hundred other things I should be aware of and
    appreciate anything you could do to help me out.  
                                                    
    I'd be more than happy to meet with you over a beer or two to discuss
    other things that may be too lenghty to write about on the tube.  
    
    I can be reached at  DTN  229-7849 or if you want to call me at home, I
    can be reached at  508-456-8858 after 6pm.
    
    Thanks for your support,
    
    				Rene'
    

    First of all, I would never even consider such a thing. I value my
    privacy too much to rent a barn on such a small piece of property to
    someone. Horses have to be fed and watered on a regular schedule.
    People usually want to ride/drive their horses too, so they'd be there
    evenings and weekends which is when I'd want to be relaxing quietly.
    Anyway, If I were going to do this, the things I would want spelled out 
    clearly (as in a lease agreement with the renter) are:
    
    1. Who's responsible for catching the horse(s) when they get out?
    2. Hours they will normally be allowed on the premises. Provisions
       should be made for medical emergencies, of course. But, horse people
       heading for a show can be very noisy at 4 AM on a Saturday/Sunday
       morning. And may return late at night.... Make sure you LIKE the
       people because they'll be likely to invite themselves(or perhaps,
       you'll feel obligated to invite them when they show up doing chores)
       to your next Fourth of July/Labor Day/Whatever barbecue or lawn party. 
    3. What about phone, electricity and water? You said they were
       available but didn't specifically mention the type of setup, so I'll 
       ask. Are the phone, electricity and water for the barn all separate 
       installations/meters/whatever or are they branches from your house? 
       If everything's separate, great. Just have the renter
       get the bills put in their name. If they are extensions from your
       house service, you might have problems with renters: running up your
       phone bill or electric bill. You probably have enough experience
       with renting housing units to know what I mean!
    4. Taxes, etc. If you're going to use part of your home property as a
       business, you should discuss the tax implications with an
       accountant. There may be tax advantages/disadvantages of renting your
       barn ... like you'll have to declare the income ($125 * 4 = $500 per
       month or $6,000 per year and Uncle Sam's gonna want his share!) but
       maybe you can depreciate the barn as a business property...Check all
       that kind of thing out with a tax accountant/lawyer.
    5. A damage deposit with a "move in/move out" statement of the property's 
       condition. Make this a substantial amount of money. Horses can do a
       LOT of damamge.
    6. Your (potential)liability should be discussed with an attorney.
       Suppose they get hurt on your property(e.g slip on the ice next
       winter and break a leg). Do you want to be involved in medical
       bills/law suits etc.
    7. Who performs maintenance like mowing grass, clearing snow etc? Of
       course most repairs are the owners responsibility. BUt, I would try
       to get them on the hook for fence maintenance since it's gonna be
       their horses who are busting it up and who are protected by it.
       Which is another point. Did you know that in most states, a loose
       horse makes the owner liable for any damages it may cause? If it is 
       hit by a car, the horse owner is liable for damages TO THE CAR! Not
       the driver liable for injuries to the horse! As property owner, you
       may pick up some responsibility/liability there. Again, check with
       a lawyer.
    8. You'll still need fire insurance on the building itself even if they
       have their own insurance for other things.
    9. Parking? Pickups and horse trailers are big and may block your
       driveway when they're getting ready to go somewhere or coming back.
       Spell out where they can/cannot park.
    
    Whew, I'm worn out just thinking about it

    Didn't think I could come up with more after reading John's list,
    but I did manage to think of a few more things:
    
    - Unless you're willing to feed/water/whatever when the owner is 
      sick, on vacation, or their car broke down, spell out exactly
      what their responsibilities in these situations are.
    
    - Specify how often stalls should be cleaned and exactly where they
      can dispose of manure and used bedding.
    
    - You should not allow them to smoke in or anywhere near the barn or
      bedding storage (my preference would be to not allow smoking at all
      on the property).
    
    - Your insurance may require that they wear safety helmets while
      riding on your property.  Make sure they would comply with that
      and anything else that may come up in your policy.
    
    Good luck - hope whatever you do works out.
    
    						Jan

    Also spell out clearly what becomes of the horse should the owners
    not pay you, or neglect the horse, not feed, etc....are you going to
    take over and care for them if the owner fails to?? Not all horse
    owners are concientous, unfortuneatly. Chances are your boarder will
    be, but it's best to have a plan should the horse begin suffering
    neglect or abuse on your property. I believe in some states that the
    stable owners can take over ownership of said horse if the board is
    not paid in a certain amount of time, sell the horse (and reimburse
    the owner any profit above and beyond the back board owed). Are you
    willing to take on responsibility, both financial and care-wise, for
    the horses if necessary?? 
    
    Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
    

    FWIW, Massachusetts liability laws regarding horses changed recently. 
    By posting signs with the specific law in 1" letters, you can cut your
    liability significantly.  (I forget the exact text, but will try to
    remember to write it down at the barn tonight!)
    
    mary

    I just remembered -- get all information you would need for emergency
    situations.  Ie, if the owner died in a car crash, who is responsible
    for/owns the horse and also what care to give in the meantime. 
    Also, who their vet is if you happened to look out a window and see the 
    horse colicking or with a broken leg or something.  Not that these things 
    happen every day, but best to have the info just in case.  I would want
    to be prepared to take care of the critter for a day or two or know who
    to bill if it needed care for a longer time.
    
    mary

  
  In order to be protected by the law you have to post a copy of 
  the law in a visible place in your barn. The Farm Bureau sells 
  signs with the law printed on them.
  
  Other notes of interest...if you buy hay or shavings you have to
  pay sales tax to the state. The seller does not collect the sales
  tax. The next issue of the Pedlar and Equine Journal will have
  extensive info on this. Farms on land covered by 61A are no longer
  considered exempt from sales tax because horses are not considered
  livestock. The Farm Bureau is working to have the law changed to
  include horses used for pleasure and showing as livestock.

  If your town has regulations regarding how much manure you can store
  on your property you need to make arrangements to have it hauled off
  every so often.

  Anyone currently boarding or considering boarding horses should 
  contact the Farm Bureau for information on the liability and sales
  tax issues. 

    I just want to thank all of you fantastic folks who have been supplying
    me with interesting ( and sometimes scary ) information.  
    
    We had to postpone our meeting scheduled for last nite to next Thursday
    so keep the information flowing.  With all this info under my belt,
    I'll really sound like I know what I'm talking about.   I even found
    out that horses perform an act called  " windsucking ".  I never
    thought they were so talented !!!
    
    I guess I never realized how powerful these conferences are.  This is
    the first time I turned to it for advice and the response has been
    great.   I just realized that it's not the conference that's so
    great ..... but the PEOPLE like yourself that makes it so !!!
    
    If anyone has a copy of the new law, I'd appreciate getting a copy of
    it for myself and my atty.
    
    Thanks again .... and keep it coming !
    
    
    	Rene'

    On eother thing occurred to me that i don't think anybody has
    mentioned. We talked about the people who will actually rent the barn,
    but what about their guests, etc? Is it a business for them where they
    would have clients coming/going? Client's horses? Or even their cousin
    from Kansas City in town on a visit and who wants to give her kids a ride on
    a real horse.???
    
    Better take all that into account too when you make up the contract

    Which brings up another point to consider -- stable vices.  Some people
    will be honest and some will lie, but check into stable vices.  Horses
    that kick stalls and crib will do some damage to your barn.  They can
    also make it harder to rent out other stalls, since many people (as
    myself) don't want their well-mannered horses to learn bad habits from
    their neighbors.  Horses and kick or bite will also be more dangerous
    to have around.  Just because you have insurance doesn't stop someone
    from suing you and being a general pain in the butt.  And if you have
    kids around, you don't want to see one possibly getting hurt.
    
    In a small barn without professional handlers, you want well-behaved,
    mild-mannered critters...  
    
    mary

    John, will ya knock it off?!?!?  It's hard enough finding a decent
    place to board around here.  Stop scaring off the newcomers before they
    even get started ;-)  ;-)  ;-)
    
    mary