Conference noted::equitation

    Lori,
    	 That does sound extremely frustrating and scary (you can
    both get hurt with her acting like that).  A friend of mine 
    had the same sort of problem with her 2yr old thoroughbred
    filly.  It turned out that she was trying to get more attention
    since she was kept basically alone.  My friend moved her to a 
    barn with 35+ horses and put her on a regular turnout/training
    program.  Her filly has now mellowed out completely.  I hope 
    that is of some help.    
    
    Marti
    

    The horse is 3 years old, this is the teenage phase for horses. She
    knows she is getting your goat. Instead of losing your temper and
    hitting her, it is very important for her to learn to trust your hands.
    My opinion is, remove the draw reins and the martigale and start over
    with teaching her to go on the bit willingly. When she trys to rear
    drop your hands to each side of her neck to bring the nose down, and
    drive her forward with your legs. Calmness on your part helps, the
    horse is probably feeling you tense up in your fear of falling off.
    This will take time. I have been retraining an older horse with the
    same type of problems(head tossing,rearing,and incorrect carriage)
    for the last year and a half, and she is just now starting to work
    consistantly.
    Sandy

I'm not an expert on curing rearing horses.  In fact, I too would
like to know how people have cured this dangerous habit.  A friend
of mine recently bought a pricey horse who is now too dangerous to
ride, since the horse rears over and falls over backwards.  It
has already seriously injured someone, breaking a girl's hip in 3 places.
Some ideas I suggested to my friend were first, for her not to ride the
horse (she's a beginner).  Also, for her to have a professional trainer
who's dealt with problem horses attempt to fix the problem.   There's
a great deal of liability at stake, so I don't think just anyone should
ride the horse, given its unfortunate history already.

First you must rule out any physical reason why the horse rears.  We
had two different dentists check my friends horse.  Also, we had a vet
check to see if her back was sore.  

If you're trying to round a horse into a frame, there are some horses who
cannot round without causing pain in their lower backs.  Horses with long
backs, for example, tend to have weak backs, and when you try to round them
they will try to escape you, possible rearing.   There are plenty of horses
too, which will never be able to collect structurally.  These are the kind
of horses who can only ever accomplish 2nd level dressage.  Even horses who
appear to have perfect conformation, may still never be able to round through
their backs.

I have some ideas on how to deal with a rearer -- some were already mentioned --

	1.) remove all restrictive appliances.   The horse might be feeling
	    claustrophobic and rearing seems to be the only direction the horse
	    can escape.

	2.) try to regain trust with the horse with your hands.  You mustn't
	    pull on the reins when she feels like she's going to rear, instead
	    drive the horse forward with your legs.  Maybe even try a 
	    hackamore to help regain trust.
	
	3.) Make sure her entire daily routine is relaxing (plenty of turnout),
	    short, relaxing training sessions.

If the horse seems to be rearing out of disobedience, and not fear, then
I have heard of one rather strange cure.   Take an egg and when the horse
rears crack it over his poll.  The horse supposedly feels the egg draining
down over his head, and thinks its his own blood, and that he hit his head.
Actually, I find this "cure" rather hard to believe!

Good luck, and don't get hurt!

Melinda

    Ha!  The egg thing sounds kind of fun if nothing else!  I think
    that you all are right as far as the restricting things go, but
    even before I put any of them on, she was a discipline problem.
    And just for the record, she is doing it not out of fear, but only
    when she feels like she doesn't want to go any more.  There is another
    pony where I keep her, and she does it when we get nearer to the
    pony's stall.  Lately, the pony has been gone, and she's been much better,
    but the pony will be back soon and I'd like to get her to be able
    to forget that he's there when he does get back ... at least while
    I'm working her.  
    
    Oh yea, when she does rear, I would never pull on her ... the last
    thing I want is a horse on top of me!  I usually grab around her
    neck, but if she really wants to get me off, she just goes up a
    little higher.  One good thing is that she has never gone over
    backwards, although, I think that if she did, she would not offer
    to rear again.  Also, I am very good with my hands -- I never ride
    off the reins and all my horses are ridden by just bumping off of
    the bit.
    
    As for her having a bad back, I curry her when we're through with
    the workout and she doesn't seem sore in the back at all.  In all
    honesty, I really believe that she does it because she wants me
    off.
    
    She also seems to be much better if I don't ride her every day --
    two days on and two days off seems to work the best.  I was really
    trying to get her ready for a show at the end of April, and three
    weeks ago, I would have said that it was possible, but any more,
    I don't think so!  Anyway, I think that I might be trying to push
    her a little too fast for such a young 'un.  Have any of you
    experienced a horse pushed too fast?  Do you think that maybe this
    could be the problem too?
    
    I have never started a horse this young, usually I wait until they
    are three before I even start longlining them ... but I have also
    noticed that her attitude is much more resistent than any of my
    others.
    
    Keep them coming!  
    
    Thanks for your help!
    
    Lori

    
    
    One of the things that I have found to work on a horse that rears is to
    bend their head around to your knee and then make them go forward in a
    tight circle.  Horses can't rear when their spine/neck is bent around
    like that. In order for this to work, you have to start bending them as
    soon as they start to go up.  I drop the outside rein and use both
    hands on the inside reain and use alot of outside leg to get them moving.
    Once they get started in the circle I stop using the leg and sit
    quietly until they stop moving on their own.  I then go back to what I
    was doing before the horse tried to rear and continue on as if nothing
    had happened.  If the horse tries to rear again, I do the same thing in
    the opposite direction.  
    
    It sounds as if this filly has a major attitude problem.  I would
    continue to work her but not let her getaway with anything.  I had the 
    same type of attitude problem with a gelding and it took me almost a
    year of constant work to get him to behave himself.  He would rear on
    occasion but mostly would just ingore any and all hand/seat/leg
    commands.  I ended up having to ride him with a pelham, dressage whip
    and spurs until he learned that I was boss and that he *had* to listen.
    After I got his attitude fixed, he started winning blue ribbons and
    trophies.  I never abused him but I was always firm and insistent that 
    he listen to me.   
    
    Pat

    Some horses (like some people) are just plain rebellious, and pushing 
    too fast is likely to bring this side of her nature out.  Instead of 
    thinking in terms of having to get her ready for any particular show 
    or show season, think in terms of having fun.  Actually, it 
    sounds like she's already having fun--just not the kind you want. 
    Think in terms of making her a pleasurable riding horse 1st, and a show
    horse last.  This may mean instead of trying to force a head set, allow
    her to carry her head where she wants to.  It's not by accident that
    correct carriage is usually the most comfortable carriage.  Instead of
    focusing on head position, concentrate on having her go quietly forward
    in a steady rythm.  Try including lots of changes of direction and pace
    (transitions) for 2 reasons:  1.  it will hold her attention on keeping
    her balance instead of thinking about fighting, and 2. it will help her
    relax and adopt a better head (and body) position by choice rather than
    force. 
    
    I've heard of the egg trick too.  It may work, although I tend to doubt
    that the horse thinks it's blood dripping down (that sounds more like
    human reasoning than horse reasoning).  
    
    Could it be the time of year?  My critter has been really, really good
    all winter--lively but obedient--until two weeks ago when he became a
    total rebel one day, out of the blue.  I tried working him out of it, 
    but he didn't get tired, just more excited.  Now I'm trying very short 
    sessions in which I demand absolute attention and obedience.  This
    seems to be working better.  As he learns more and we can have more
    variety in his schooling, plus intersperse trail riding, then I will
    start working him for longer sessions.

    
    
    I forgot.  The egg on the poll is a good idea but rather messy.  Try a 
    water ballon instead and see if that does any good.  Also, if this
    filly is demonstrating an attitude problem on the ground by being rude
    and pushy I would get after her every time she tries something.  My
    mare occasionally forgets her manners and I have to remind her to
    behave.  Her nature is such that all I have to do is raise my voice and
    shake my finger at her so it isn't to difficult to correct her.  You
    could also use your hand or the end of a lead rope to get after her.
    
    ****There is nothing more dangerous than an out of control horse.****
    
    Pat

    I think that you might have hit the nail on the head!  The tight
    circle thing sounds like a really good idea.  And I agree with your
    last statement about nothing being more dangerous than an out of
    control horse!  It's scary!  And you are right, she does have a
    major attitude problem, but she was born with it ... the morning
    she was born, I walked outside and she was standing there looking
    at me.  She was the prettiest foal I have ever seen.  I walked up
    to her really slowly, and she turned around and kicked at me!  Then
    she started to come back up to me again ... I think it's a big game
    to her!  She just has never been afraid of anything ... since I
    have been working her, she has gotten much better on the ground
    ... but I still don't completely trust her.
    
    About the water balloon, I don't know if I could carry it and ride
    at the same time!  She doesn't rear all the time ... but it sounds
    like it might work ...
    
    Thanks!
    
    Lori

    I would be sure that her teeth are okay as wolf teeth can cause all
    kinds of problems let alone a broken one as a friend's horse once had.
    
    In addition, some young horses do rebel when their heads are set
    artifically because it throws them out of balance and it hurts.  It
    sounds like you want to show her saddleseat as they do with most
    National Show Horses (we have one).  Their heads are set right up there
    but from what I understand to do it so that they enjoy it takes a long
    time.  
    
    The filly we have has been long lined now for the last five months and
    when Henry saw her starting to drives from the rear he raised her only
    a little and only for a very short time.
    
    This is only one horse as we all know and each one of them is
    different.  Good luck it certainly is a challenge.
    
    By the way, where are you located?  Would love to come and see you
    sometime if you are in the area.
    
    

    Yep, I think I am going to have the vet out to check her teeth and
    float them. 
    
    She's really put together well, so I think that a head set shouldn't
    be a problem for her.  She just needs to bring it up a little bit
    and drive off her rear more, I think that those two things will
    complement each other if I can just get her to settle down! 
    
    I'm in Colorado Springs ... I have one horse in Albuquerque (NSH
    also) that I trained last year, and I'm leasing a mare that's due
    to foal in April with another NSH.  Same sire as this problem horse
    OH BOY!!  You're welcome to come by any time, but I just have this
    feeling that most of you are back East somewhere!
    
      

I had this exact same problem with my saddlebred mare except she went over 
backwards all the time.  When I bought Lucy she was 5 months old & I really was 
anxious to get her on the show circuit because she was absolutely beautiful and 
had a lot of natural action. I think my biggest mistake is I never let her be 
a baby.  I started her with trainers when she was a yearling and I just don't 
think she was mature enough to handle the heavy discipline.  I paid a lot for 
Lucy and put many more $1,000's of dollars into having her trained.   

The first trainer told me one time she was long lining Lucy and she flipped 
over backwards and got pinned down and couldn't get up.  The trainer was 
certain this would have scared her enough to make her break the habit but it 
didn't.  She also told me she had owned Lucy's mother at one time and said her 
mother had the exact same problem.  She started showing her at a very 
young age as a 3-gaited horse and she won everything she went into.  But she 
reared up when you least expected it and by 4 she was unrideable and they had 
to put her out to pasture as a broodmare.  The 2nd trainer tried a different 
root and really tried to train her as a dressage prospect, but Lucy flipped 
over on him and he told me to take her away.  The same also happened to the 
3rd trainer.

I finally sold Lucy as a broodmare loosing almost all the money I had put into 
her.  But I tell you, I think she has met her calling because she is the best
mom and throws the most beautiful foals and the family she is with absolutely 
love her (although they don't dare get on her back).

Just a couple of months ago I met another saddlebred trainer in NH and I was 
telling him the problem I had had with Lucy and he asked me what her 
breeding was.  I told him that her grandsire was Wing Commander and he said 
that is a very common characteristic in his foals.  That he has trained many of 
his foals with the same fault.

I don't know if this man was right or not but in a way it made me feel better 
because all these years I carried the guilt that it was something that I did 
wrong.  That maybe I pushed her too hard, maybe not hard enough.  Who knows...

Sue

                     
    

    Yep ... I think a lot of this has to do with the filly's breeding.
    I talked to the owner of the Stallion and he said that the blood
    line was tough, but not unbreakable.  He's one of the big Arabian 
    trainers and he seemed to think that if she was going to go over 
    backwards, that she would have done it by now.  I owned her mother, 
    and the she was a bit kooky, she never reared though ... but I can 
    see a lot of the same mannerisms in this filly that the mare had.  
    But, I think taking it slow with her is the way to go ... I'll let
    you know of my progress in another couple weeks or so!

    re. 12
    
    does she rear when you long line drive her?
    
    my mare used to do what you are describing only she would rear and 
    and lunge and litterally leave town.. I long lined her, that fixed the
    rearing problem since she didnt like her mouth pulled and I could 
    get my heels into the ground and get some leverage on her.
    
    also she is tossing her head, does she do it when you just lunge 
    with the saddle on??
    
    
    p.s. I know what you are goin through about 4 years ago I almost 
    quit with mine, but it seemed like that next summer she was cleaning
    up.. i dont think the threat about alpo had anything to do with it:^}
    
    	wendy o'
    
    

    She's really tough to long line ... she stops and spins really quickly.
    She doesn't really rear though, but she spins on her hind legs.
    When I try to turn her to go clockwise, she'll turn a 360 instead
    of a 180 and end up counter clockwise again!  So in order to long
    line her, I need someone else there to chase her with the whip.
    
    As far as tossing her head goes, she does that mostly when I ride
    her.  I haven't lunged her at all yet, so I don't know what she'll
    do then.  
    
    When I really tried to constrict her head and used the draw reins,
    she went bananas and lunged like your mare did and reared at the
    same time.  The only way I could control her was to circle.
    
    I think what I am going to do is start all over again with lots
    of ground work -- lunging in the bitting rig first then going to
    long lining again and then I'll try getting on again.  
    
    What did you do with your horse?  And how old was she?
    
    Lori

    I have broken several horses from rearing with that 'rein to the knee'
    method.  One of the best things about it is it brings them down when 
    they're up.  It's very uncomfortable for them to stay that way for long,
    they hate it, but it doesn't hurt them. I wouldn't do it in a regular
    snaffle though it can pull through their mouth. A d-ring snaffle or
    something that can't pull through would be better.  If you really feel
    that it's not fear or discomfort but just brattiness, confront her with
    all the things she would rear about until she gives in and stops.
    
    Sharon

    What is the 'rein to the knee method'?
    
    Lori

    
    The 'rein to the knee method' is pulling the horse's head to your
    knee with one rein - meaning giving with the other of coarse. I used
    this to convince my horse he is not a freight train but a competation
    horse that must stop when asked. You pull the rein with your hand down
    low, the horse will spin around a few times, eventually giving that up,
    will stand there stiff against the rein but eventually will softer
    their jaw - well at least mine does.
    
    Nancy
    

    Ohhhhhhh, ok ... I was trying to picture using the reins to bring
    a horse to his knees!

    re. last
    shes 11 now, she was two when i broke her..
    
    There are all sorts of different ways to get her..right..
    how much time do you have??
    :^}
    
    if you want to try and get her head from tossing, i would have to step
    back and see why she might be snoty about it. ONe that comes to mind is
    either she is asking for more rein or she just doesnt like her mouth 
    taken ahold of.
    
    
    I would stay with the bit you have her in, becuase its one piece and
    you dont have movement that might make her cranky.Use one set of reins
    if possible.. now i assume you want to get her to quit tossing as well as 
    putting a headset on?? good ;^}
    
    I would use a set of spurs just because if you need em you got em'
    if not your bummin'.
    
    
    if she knows how to lunge i would see how she goes with some heavy
    reins flopping around her, if shes quiet the above reasons might be
    why shes bratty. If not I would lunge her for about an hour and let her
    get used to the vibration/noise on her mouth.
    
    if she doesnt lunge how good is she for leg aids, i mean if you didnt
    have reins would she stop, move the front end or hind end over without
    throwing you out of balance? If the answer is no i would say i would 
    work on that before other things.
    
    if she does legs then i would warm her up and then i would ask her 
    for the most extended trot you think she can give, and stay off the
    mouth, let her go as fast as long as she doesnt break gait. I would 
    just check her her and there, the minute you pick and she tosses her
    head, let her do it, but next time you pick up and she goes to toss her
    head ask for more speed, and once she tired keep her going, really work
    her. (this is the tired thoery i like to use, it seems to work for 
    alot :^))
    
    there are some other things to try, like a german martingale..
    but you have use this like on week striaght and some people 
    dont like what it does..
    
    
    
    
    
    		wendy o'
    

    re: .20
    
    Based on the breed (although the owner knows the individual best) I
    would be wary of trying to tire her out to get better behavior. 
    Arabians are known for their endurance and many hotbloods will simply
    keep going on nervous energy.  The more you try to tire them the more
    excited they get.  By the time they show signs of being tired, they
    could be really overextended and hurt as a result.
    
    Mary

    re. last 
    
    youre absolutely right!! I guess i was under the impression she
    had a quarter type horse..
    
    :^}
    
    I mentioned it only because she appeared to have the same type of 
    	attitude towards training as I did thats why i recommended it.
    (ie: things i used to do)
    
    I would never work a horse without protective gear, even tho i failed
    to mention it, the author appears to have alot of riding under her
    belt, those were my recommendations.
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

   I too had a horse that was a stubborn brute.  He reared as well and was
   what I would call a borderline danger.  Here's what helped him.

   
    1. In the beginning I rode him in an enclosed ring - preferably under
       well qualified supervision.  If you have someone there to see the
       situation from the ground it is very helpful - plus they can call the
       ambulance if something happens.

    2. I stopped using any form of constraint (martingale, side reins, etc)
       He was a very tense horse and did not like any type of contact on his
       mouth nor any constrictions on his head.  I really think that he had
       this problem because he was not balanced.  Green or unbalanced horses
       need their heads free to regulate their balance.

    3. No spurs!  You shouldn't need them - especially if you are disciplining/ 
       schooling a problem horse.  Remember discipline doesn't mean a whack.
       It means correcting something the horse has done wrong and rewarding 
       when the horse has repeated the action correctly.  

    4. No time tables/Expectations.  Take one day at a time.  If you're on 
       a schedule, then you're more likely to get uptight if things aren't
       happening as fast as you want.

    5. I started out just walking around the ring combing the reins through my
       fingers.  Make sure you are relaxed and are using your leg to encourage
       her to stretch her neck out and down.  Gently combing the reins through
       your fingers from the withers toward you will not put much pressure on
       her mouth, yet it gives soft little vibrations on the bit and if you
       are encouraging her to move foward at the same time she should relax
       in her back and lengthen her neck out and down.  Remeber this is just
       walking around the outer edge of the ring on a free rein combing the
       reins and moving her foward.
       Always give her a pat and tell her she's good when she does what is
       requested of her.

       Once she begins to accept the pressure on her mouth a little more, I
       would try to school her slowly.  Maybe put some rails on the ground
       here and there, or a few spaced out at a comfortable disctance for her
       stride just to keep her attention.  She should move into the bit 
       naturally if you are using your leg to engage her hind end.  

       One thin gthat made a huge difference in my horse's manners was a change 
       of scenery.  I rode at a different ring - far away from his friends at
       the barn (he was also quite barn sour) and I was finally able to keep
       his attention on the schooling lesson.

    It took a long time for my horse to come around.  The fact was that the
    contact that he hated and always tried to get away from was what he really
    needed.  It was me originally who added to the problem because I was not
    using my leg and was hanging onto the reins.  What he needed was for me
    to push him into the bit with my leg.  He was very stiff too and it was
    much easier for him to balance himself if I kept a constatnt feel on the
    outside rein while I gave or half halted on the inside.  No more head
    throwing after that.  It seems that he began to enjoy being schooled more
    often since we greatly reduced the times we fought and he was getting 
    rewarded more and more.  I think he developed a whole new self esteem and
    that is what made the biggest difference.  Instead of fighting against me
    he began to want to try to do what I wanted.


   Hope this helped a little


          Simone