Conference noted::equitation

    What about eventing!!!  I got my Omnibus the other day and the
    "CHEAPEST" event is $70.00 for a one day horse trial.  I almost flipped
    over backwards when I saw that Groton House Farms NOVICE level event
    was $145.00 dollars plus $85.00 stable fee.  YIKES! $230.00 for an
    event!!  That is ridiculus!  
    
    They are driving people away from the sport.  I know I cannot afford to
    event at this kind of money.  Maybe 2 or 3 events a year now.  I use to
    compete (back in 193-1987) around 10 events a year.  
    
    GRRRRRR!!!! :(

    I've had mixed feelings about NEDA and, for that matter, all
    associations of its type (including the AHSA) for a long time.  
    Not only are the costs outrageous, but what you get in return is 
    questionable.  The definition of dressage presented in a NEDA 
    catalog that I got last year was not only badly written (and 
    embarrassingly so), it was inaccurate as well!  I really wonder about
    the amount of training and understanding the judges (in particular the
    lower level judges) really have.  I know some people that have become
    licensed judges and instructors that are really poor riders and
    trainers.  Furthermore, the NEDA organization seems to me to be
    somewhat elitist.
    
    As in all things political, its not what you know, its who you know. 
    And in the world of riding, the amount of money you have to spend seems
    directly related to who you know and how far you go.  At least to a
    point.  My guess is that all the dressage associations are elitist, not
    just NEDA.  Perhaps that is why the U.S. continues to do so poorly in 
    international competition.
    
    (Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on a rampage.  It just slipped out, I
    guess.)

    just a thought, but could any of these costs be due to the high cost
    of insurance and risk at these eventing locations?
    
    Sharon

    
    There is some cost of insurance. 
    
    But in general the cost of showing is getting much higher whether you
    show in the hunter ring, or with Arabians, or dressage.  
    
    AHSA has fees which organizations must pay in order to have the show
    'recognized'.  
    
    In addition, AHSA just raised their membership fees yet again.  Life 
    membership is up to $1000.  Senior membership is up to $65.  Junior 
    membership is up to $46.  Affiliate membership is up to $30 or $45 if
    you want an amateur card.  And nonmember fees for showing is $15 a pop.
     
    I used to be 100% supportive of AHSA.  But this last fee increase is 
    beyond my comprehension.  Statistics indicate the show entries are down
    across the country.  Yet they are raising the fees to those who are
    left.  Plus AHSA is housed in one of the highest priced locations in
    the country.  Having to pay the highest wages, rents, ...   AHSA could
    relocate to almost anywhere out of the northeast and have half their
    current expenses.  (And yes, AHSA has heard from me on this subject.)
    
    Stabling fees are getting higher because some facilities are charging
    more or because temp stabling must be brought in.
    
    But the good news is there are small groups of dissatisfied individuals
    cropping up all over the country who are starting to hold their own
    shows and events.  And are charging the lowest fees they can.
    

    
    I'm thinking of getting out of eventing because of the cost.  Last
    year I averaged about $300/event.  
    
    We're doing an AHSA B rated hunter show this weekend. Classes are
    $10, but then there's the drug fees and nonmember fees.  I'd forgotten
    all about those fees till now.  oops.
    
    SCHOOLING dressage shows here are $18 for anything under 4th level.
    The rest are $25.  And they aren't even USDF sanctioned (or have
    respectable judges!)
    
    -maureen
    

    If you just want to try showing dressage, don't go to the big USDF/AHSA
    recognized shows.  Try first at local schooling shows.  There used to
    be quite a few around southern NH when I lived there.  There were two
    groups involved in them from what I remember - the Monadnock Area
    Dressage Association and also a group in Hollis, NH (can't remember the
    name).  I can probably get you the name of someone in the MADA from
    whom you can get some info or at least a pointer to someone who could
    give you info (send me mail if interested).  The schooling shows
    usually only go up the 1st or 2nd level at the highest (usually they
    will have one class for all 2nd level rides - you pick which test). 
    The entry fees are cheap.  There is no penalty for non-AHSA people
    (since they are not AHSA recognized), and no AHSA drug-fee.  Most just
    require a recent Coggins test.
    
    						Jan

    So dressage and eventing entry fees are getting too high for you? Have
    you ever stopped to figure out what the fees might be if the shows and
    events had to rely entirely on paid help instead of VOLUNTEERS? As a
    long time VOLUNTEER at a local event I once worked out what, if all the
    help had to be paid and there was no source of revenue other than entry
    fees, what those fees would have to be. Depending on how you allocated
    land use costs (from none to some portion of the real estate costs) and
    a labour rate of $5/hour, entry fees would have had to be set at between
    $600 and $1000.
    
    So, if you want to understand more about why entry fees are going up,
    VOLUNTEER to help at your next local show/event, help keep costs down
    and really see what it takes to organize one.

    re.7
    
    I too have VOLUNTEERED for a number of years at a top rate event in
    this area.  And I have sat down and figured out what kind of profit
    this farm was making.  For an event held 2 days, each day having 100
    competitors, at a fee of $75.00 dollars is $15,000 for one weekend!
    Less expenses of 2 dressage judges, TD, blacksmith, EMT, and a few
    others (estimate total expenses) $6,000 - $7,000.  PROFIT $9,000 for
    one weekend and this farm has an event twice a year...$18,000 a year.
    NOT BAD!!  
    
    Let's face it they would not be having events unless it made them
    money.  If people are willing to pay it then they are willing to
    provide it!  I am for the local pony clubs that put on small events and
    shows I would rather my money go for a good cause then someone's annual
    income!

    Yes, it is an outrageous amount of $.  Personally, I would prefer having
    higher yearly fees to offset entry fees.  

    Btw - remember the other expenditures:  
		cost to lease property (Groton-House for example)
		property taxes
		fees to make it a "sanctioned" event
		cost of creating and maintaining a x-country course
			(last year Sheply HAD to rebuild at least 2 fences)
		cost of stadium jumps
		cost of the dressage ring (ever price one of these out? $$$)
		cost of the program
		insurance 
		stabling, damage to stabling,...
		etc

	Granted, many of these can be depreciated over time IF the farm 
    offering the event is a BUSINESS.  And if they didn't make money with
    the event, WHY subject their property to the hordes of people, horses,
    trucks, trailers, etc!  (Anybody rememeber the mud in the parking area
    at Tamarack last year??  They were hauling in dirt to support the trucks
    and trailers, plus having the equipement handy to pull stuck rigs out!
    Denny, himself, was doing alot of the work plus dashing hither and yon
    to check safety conditions.)

	I'd also like to see changes in the refund policies.  Last year my
    guy strained a tendon and I was ready with a note from my vet stating
    as such -- did I get my $100 back??!  NOPE, it was after the closing
    date.  Was I RIPPED.  And they had a waiting list!!  Here I was being
    considerate and notifying them that I was withdrawning and they were
    going to get 2 entry fees. #$*&(*@$  This year I did notice that that
    particular event refund policy had changed so that I would get my $
    back if something happens.

	I feel broke already...

    re .7
    
    Sorry, but I resent the tone of this note.  Yes, I show. But...
    
    I also volunteer at local events from here (Dayton) to the Kentucky
    horse Park.  I judge some local events for free.   Good lord, my
    crew seems to have built about half th XC courses around here -
    gratis.
    
    And on top of that, my barn hosts schooling shows and unsanctioned 
    events.  Entry fees are $5.00/class for dressage or hunter, $12.00 
    for combined tests and $25.00 for minitrials. We give out nice ribbons 
    and small trophies - and guess what?  We even manage to make a small 
    profit!    
    
    
    What gets hard to explain to my helpers is why we can do this for
    reasonable fees while other "trainers" are running the same quality
    shows with MUCH higher fees.  
    

    With so many different levels of competition out there, it seems
    there is something for everyone. People who show at the higher
    levels pay mega-money for made horses, expensive trainers fees,
    fancy just-outta-the-factory trailers to haul around in, etc, etc...
    it seems they should expect to pay high competition fees if they
    wish to compete at that level. For those who cannot afford 15-20K
    a pop for a top horse, or 500 a month for training board, there
    are still plenty of competitions around that welcome home-trained
    horses and riders who do not go see Denny Emerson (or whoever) for
    advice weekly. Obviously the fees at the lower level shows will
    be lower....the judge may not be as experienced, or the facilities
    may not include stabling at all, or perhaps the blue ribbon winner
    in each class gets a ribbon but no trophy (heaven forbid!). I have
    shown over the years at a variety of levels from 4-H to ASHA "A"
    rated, and I agree the fees for the higher levels are HUGE!, but
    there is always the option of staying home....personally, and I
    know a lot of people think I am nuts, but I have always preferred
    the smaller shows for the simple reason that the atmosphere is
    SO much more relaxed. At the bigger shows everyone seems so concerned
    with winning points, while at the lower leveled shows the crowd
    is generally just there to have fun, everyone helps everyone else
    and genuinally applaudes the winners rather than fuming about the
    judge having no brains today or whatever.....just my personal
    preferance.
    

    re: .12  8 years or so ago there were plenty of small shows around...as
    I recall Sunshine Farms in Framingham had several dressage/2-phase
    events per season, Trailmare farms (Upton?) used to have dressage
    shows, and several other places.  The quality of the judges varied, but
    they had some good ones.  If I remember any others, I'll post them.
    
    Mary

    
    The're out there....look at bulletin boards in tack shops. Rowley
    Riding and Driving Club has several a year, in Rowley, MA....in
    NH there are quite a few held at the New Boston Fairgrounds....
    they are not as well advertised as they could be, true, but then
    if they were all loudly announced they would probably attract a
    lot of should-stick-to-the-higher-level riders looking for easy
    ribbons and stealing the fun for the youngsters and amateurs just
    getting their feet wet.....and perhaps not advertising in major
    publications is one way they cut cost, reducing the entry fees...
    

    RE .9
    OTHER EXPENDITURES
    
    I have been eventing for almost 11 years and can honestly say the only
    events left in New England have been doing this sort of thing before I
    was even competing because my sister competed at them.  So as far as
    expenses go, I would say they are old timers at this and ALREADY have
    "stadium jumps (they get volunteer's to paint them i.e. working
    students), already have dressage rings and letters and boards (once
    again working students and volunteers help paint these too!), it is
    rare that they lease the property, etc.
    
    As far as property taxes go...they live there it is their farm!  My
    parents pay property taxes, that is life!  Farms don't exist for mere
    events, they also have their horses there, and make their living their.
    
    Insurance I would say is the biggest problem.  I ski in the winter and
    the lift tickets are outrageous!!!  Mountains have the same problem
    with law suits and insurance.
    
    But, I still think that $145.00 for an event at the novice level is STUPID!
    
    Oh well, what can we do :)
    

    I don't have "made" horses.  The most expensive thing in my barn
    was $4K (and he can't jump for $%&*).  I don't have an expensive
    trainer and I don't belong to an expensive training facility.  But,
    I show (and win and win my share) of events and dressage competitions.
    But since we're going to be a popular sport I should give up just
    because I'm not rich?  That's nonsense. Good lord,folks - the most
    sucessful horse I've ridden cost $800 - and I've spent much more
    than that on entries.   
    
    Paying $145 just to enter a novice level event is silly!.  Let's
    face it, the fences are only 2'9" and dressage  is about as elementary
    as it can get. FWIW-I don't care if it's a USCTA event or not, the
    $$$$ is going to keep people from even trying our sport.
    
    On costs...
    ribbons run +-$1.00 (if you but them on sale)
    the championship coolers are about $30
    judges fees = $100-$200 p[er day
    
    Now if you count sponsor ships for the XC fences, and building a
    new stadium course ($1000) where exactly is the high cost justified?
    

    re. 18
    
    Can I ask the address to join RRDC?? I showed at your shows last
    year and loved them, thought I join this year...thanks....:-)...
    
    The NSHA shows in Topsfield are nice too, ASHA rated, the hunter
    classes go on forever and are fiercly competetive, but they have
    a Pleasure division that is super. They DO get expensive , though,
    being AHSA run they hit you with non-member fees for anyone remotely
    involved...I had to pay last year because as rider I was not a member,
    as owner my brother was not a member, and while I do not have a
    trainer, we had to pay because this non-exsistent trainer was not
    a member either. I won't be going to many of them this year for
    that reason, just can't afford it. But they have a huge attendance,
    so apparently a lot of riders don't mind the costs too much...
    
    

	re: .2

	I think the U.S. is finally gaining some respect in international
	dressage competition.   Many of our top riders have been competing
	internationally (and doing quite well!).  Carol Lavell's "Gifted" is 
	believed to be the 'Most talented dressage horse in the world.' 
	according to one top German trainer/master.   I think its getting 
	more and more exciting watching our top riders get more competitive
	by the day.  Many of these riders emerged from NEDA and are from New 
	England	originally.  NEDA has the best dressage riders in the country,
	as is demonstrated in national competition.  

	Dressage has never been more popular.   Its obvious by the the 
	attendence and long waiting-lists. I've never seen better competition!
	There are more knowledgeable dressage riders and trainers competing
	at shows than ever before.  I believe a winning test in 1979 is an 
	average to below average test in 1989.  Ten years ago it was common to
	have only 5-10 riders in a typical class.  Anything about 2nd level 
	was fairly empty.   You were lucky if you had anyone to compete with.
	Now all the lower levels and much of the upper levels are PACKED SOLID.
	I think this is an excellent sign, and I think we should definitely
	be optimistic about the future of the sport.

	Many people complain how recognized shows have amateurs/hobbyists
	competing with Olympic caliber riders.  I think its wonderful, and
	quite flattering to be warming up with these riders.  They're
	an inspiration, and I'm proud to be competing with them.  You
	can't experience the same level of inspiration or motivation from
	a schooling show.  Granted, showing is very expensive, but so is
	flying airplanes, owning 200K houses, buying 15K cars, etc, etc.
	

	Melinda 
	

Not everyone wants to do a musical freestyle, so I wouldn't use
World cup participation as a means to draw such a dismal conclusion
about the sport.  There are other reasons, too, as was pointed out in
a Chronicle, why the World cup participation was low.  Kathy Connelly
couldn't go for example, since her sponsorship company is undergoing 'severe
financial reversals.'   Others didn't go, since they knew they didn't have
the points to win.

I don't see how you can think the sport is stagnating when for the first
time our competitors are placing internationally.  Marie Myers, Carol Lavell,
Michael Poulin, Mary Howard Canfield, Kathy Connelly, Robert Dover, Belinda
Baudin, just to name a few -- have all competed with success in Europe.  
This is the FIRST time we've had international success.   I see nothing
dismal about it.   We can't expect to blossom overnight, and start
winning World Cups, the Pan Am Games, or the Olympics.  I think we should
be optimistic for the future, especially with our talented Young Riders
coming along. 

Melinda

    The people who are competing internationally have megabucks to spend. 
    And I do mean megabucks.  Yes, I've heard that Carol Lavell's horse,
    Gifted, may be the best in the world.  I've also heard that his
    potential is not even close to being tapped.  Because you can afford to
    travel around the world looking for a horse and spend $30 or $40 or 100K 
    at a pop, import trainers to oversee you every step of the way, doesn't
    make you the best trainer or rider in the world.  Kathy Connelly is a
    very good rider and competitor.  She also buys her horses already
    trained to the grand prix level and just puts on the last polish. 
    Don't get me wrong.  I like Kathy.  I worked for her.  And from what
    I've heard, she tells people that I'm an excellent rider.  (On the
    other hand, at my 1st lesson with Robert Hall, he told me I should be
    riding world class horses).  I just don't happen to have the money to
    buy even one, let alone a half dozen.  Or the money to buy  (or even
    board at) a facility with a nice big indoor arena where I could school
    regularly.  Let alone the wealth that would enable me to school 8 hours
    a day/7 days a week.
    
    I appreciate Kathy's (and others') opinion of my riding and I
    appreciate her opinion of horses (because she knows a good horse).
    Am I impressed by the opportunity to rub elbows with these people in
    the warmup arena?  No.  Because I'm not impressed by gross wealth.  As
    it happens, I have some idea where some of this money comes from,
    having sat at the lunch table with some of Kathy's sponsors, and
    I'm even less impressed.  In fact, I'm depressed by it. 
    
    Mary 

	Many of our top dressage riders started with nothing.  True, some
	have had sponsorship to help them out, but getting a sponsorship
	entails proving yourself first.   Quite a number of people I
	listed in a previous reply had no gross wealth when they started
	out.   They've had to start with what they could afford, and
	take the difficult path.   Most of the riders who are now enjoying
	the 'spotlight' worked much of their lives for it.  When you get
	to know some of these people you find them to be the busiest, most
	hard working people you ever knew.
	
	I'll leave out names, but I know several top riders also, and I
	know they've spent years establishing their name, like any other
	business person has to do in another line of work.  They do train
	their own horses.  If they're good enough, they sell the horses
	they've trained for more money, and then buy an even higher caliber
	horse.   Upon getting a name, they can usually get working students,
	and that way can afford a farm, or work out of someone else's farm.

	I don't think its always a question of wealth, although there
	surely have been some riders who were helped out by it.  Surely
	Princess Anne, for example, has never had a bad mount.  But lets
	face it, you can't FAKE it when you're competing internationally.
	Somewhere along the line, you had to pay your dues, and I think
	its a major accomplishment.   I think people who were fortunate
	enough to get sponsorships, earned them.  I think where there's
	a will (and talent) there's a way.  


	
	

    Yes, I realize that some of them started with almost nothing.  As I 
    recall, Carol Lavell considered Better and Better a cheap horse (I
    think she bought him for $6K- more than I've ever had to spend).  And 
    I realize that they work very hard.  However, a lot of people work 
    very hard and have a lot of talent, but that doesn't seem to make a 
    whole lot of difference.  I suppose its the usual catch-22. To get 
    sponsorship you have to gain recognition, which means riding a good 
    horse, which means having some money to spend on a good horse.  If
    there is just one thing I've learned in this life, its that to get
    moeny you have to have it first.  It seems a lot like when I first 
    started in the working world.  You know, to get a job you have to 
    have experience, and to have experience you have to get a job.  Its 
    just very frustrating.
    
    I don't mean to sound bitter, but I've had 3 or 4 international trainers 
    and coaches think that I was a very promising rider (starting when I was
    17--back before anybody had heard of dressage).  I couldn't take
    lessons or clinics with most of them now because of the restrictions
    placed on them when they are in the area (by invitation only, competing
    actively at 4th level and above, etc.)  My 1st good horse was killed in
    a freak accident.  My next 2 horses I sold at cost to keep above water
    while I was in college.  It was 7 years before I could afford to
    support myself and a horse.  My next horse crippled herself the day
    her ad came out (I was trying to do just what you mentioned--buy, train
    up, resell) and I spent a year trying to repair the damage and another
    year trying to find her a home (when I got her she had impure gaits and
    was basically ruined.  When she left, she could do most movements
    through 4th level, plus passage, but was quite unsound).  I half-killed 
    myself getting my instructor's license, taught for 1 year and had just 
    started establishing a base clientele when the farm where I taught was 
    sold to developers, my horse had her accident and I became seriously ill.  
    It took me 3 years to recover from the illness, start over again (with 
    career at Digital) and get finances in order.  I finally started over 
    again last fall, and was actually starting to develop a base from which 
    I could finally get an international prospect in 3-4 years when I got in 
    a serious car accident on ice and totalled my car, thereby wiping out 
    about 18 months savings.
    
    I don't care what anybody say, a lot of luck is involved.  And Princess
    Anne is not the only one with money and support behind her.

    I disagree with faking not being possible at the upper levels. 
    It's not always real obvious, But there's lots or riders "faking
    it" on well trained horses. And I won't mention names either :>)
    
    On the other hand, lots of the prominent successful riders do work
    very hard and give back much more to our sports than they ever take
    out.  
    			-maureen
    

Just a thought on the higher costs that we're all seeing this year...

I think the USCTA News and the Chronicle of the Horse have both had articles
about what it costs to run an event or dressage show.... Lots of the big costs
are stabling which can be upwards of $90 per stall which is why stabling costs
are so high... Add insurance, upkeep, materials, etc. (all whose prices are
ever increasing) and it all adds up; quickly...

Now, when you take these shows who also need to find people to volunteer their
time to make the show or event come off well and then factor in the tremendous
annoyance factor (months of preparation, ruined fields from parking, broken 
fences, etc.) and these farms which are willing to put on these shows and 
events probably are making very little. If they were to get "paid by the hour"
for their time, effort and contributions, I'm sure the amount would be 
embarassingly low.

I too am going to be rethinking the whole competition idea because of its
high costs (entries, gas, stabling, transportation, etc.) but I really don't
begrudge those that sponsor these events the money because I believe that most
do it for the sport... Not to mention the fact that, at least in the New England
area, there are few places left who have the facilities to do it....

Just my $.02 ;^)

Linda