Conference noted::equitation

    
    I am not a lawyer and, therefore, cannot practice law but as my
    contracts professor said, "Everyone knows the law," so I can
    opinionate...
    
    First, anyone who involves a child in a contract is an idiot, pure
    and simple.  A contract signed by a minor is unenforceable and so
    there is little likelyhood of a remedy through a civil procedure
    of any kind.  On the other hand, lower courts are little more than
    lotteries so anything is possible if they pursue that route.
    
    Now, if your friend can somehow demonstrate ownership, regardless
    of the contract, then it becomes a matter of theft and a criminal
    complaint should be filed.  And using the 'thief's' valuation of
    $500.00 for the animal, I believe it can be elevated to grand theft
    larceny, a felony.  Hoisted by their own petard, eh?  Consult a
    lawyer on ways of proving ownership other than a contract.  Or criminal
    trespass for coming onto the property.  The threat of a criminal
    action may get the pony back but a promise not to take criminal
    action against someone is not itself legal consideration in a contract
    (say for sale of the pony) but a good way of getting action out
    of someone.
    
    (The typical case where this arises is where some kid is given an
    unsecured loan and then defaults.  There is no remedy and nothing
    but physical violence is going to get the kid to pay up.)
    
    monty

    
    All those things help.  All you need is a preponderance of evidence.
    Any bills paid in support of the horse, a bill of sale, third
    parties who witnessed the transaction, simply presenting one's self
    as the owner for a sufficiently long time to enough people.  Everything
    helps when you're in the grey zone.  Another approach is to ask
    why the horse was on the property if the original owner's retained
    ownership.  Was it being boarded?  If so, where is the agreement
    and what are the terms?  Perhaps your friend should present a boarding
    bill at $500/month.  Also, while the contract is unenforceable as
    a contract, it should be allowed as evidence for the weaker argument
    of showing ownership.
    
    It really doesn't make financial sense to pursue this, however.
    The $500 involved will buy maybe three or four hours of a lawyer's
    time (more if he's no good) which is barely enough for a speeding
    ticket.  That leaves small claims court where the ownership approach
    may very well work and where findings are more a matter of whether
    the judge likes you or not.  Best would be to make it clear to the
    'thief' that continuing in the same manner will cost them more than
    $500.  Should they get the horse back through independent means,
    they should try to get a bill of sale or a statement from the 'thief'
    that they waive all rights to the horse. 

    Re:  .1, .2
    
    The lawyer has told her that this contract is legal.  I suspect the
    lawyer is more informed on this point than any of us are.
    
    They may want to contact the Humane Society and find out about
    abandonment laws around horses.  If the contract is not considered
    legally binding by the court, then they could rightfully claim that 
    the pony was abandoned.
    
    re: .3
    
    I would save the idea of presenting bills for boarding (which is an
    excellent idea) for last resort, since doing so would suggest admission
    that the pony is not legally theirs.  They may want to advise the people 
    that took the pony that they have filed legal charges against them and 
    plan to pursue this...that may intimidate them enough to return the pony.
    
    If they are not able to get the pony back, then they should present the
    people who took the pony away with a very large boarding fee, supported
    not only by vet, blacksmith, feed, and bedding bills, but with
    statements (notarized if possible) from other area boarding stables (3 
    should be a good number) showing what the going rates are.  The board 
    they charge should be commensurate with the service.  I would be prepared 
    to present this information in court, because if the court doesn't rule 
    in their favor, than they certainly will rule that the people who took
    care of the pony for the past year should be paid for their services.
    
    Faced with a board bill of $2500+ may convince the "indian-givers" to
    let them have the pony after all.

    
    Well, I'll try to make it even stranger...  Now that a possible
    charge of transporting stolen goods across state lines is involved,
    it can become a federal case and the FBI would, in theory, be
    interested.  A mess, isn't it?
    
    					m

    do they still hang people for 'horse thievin'?
    
    i think this is about the lowest thing i've heard in a while.  what
    fun to punish a child for the adults problems.  i can just imagine
    how the poor kid feels.....
    
    jan
    

    I still think the criminal trespass approach would be a good one.  An
    arrest warrant and the sherrif at their door might give them a little
    jolt.  An additional advantage to this approach is that it puts on the
    public record that no permission was granted to remove the horse, in
    case the court rulinbg does uphold the bill of sale.  This will make it
    much easier to institute both criminal theft and civil damages suits
    down the road.

    Can the boarding/vet costs be recovered?  

    For boarding/vet costs/etc. I would go to small claims court.  That
    would be quicker and would leave out the cost of a lawyer.  But first I
    would try to get back the pony for the sake of the kid involved.

    I was involved with something similar 8 years ago with a breeder who I
    bought a show dog from, did exactly the same thing and we had a written
    contract.  But I had already paid hundreds of dollars for the dog.  She
    took it back because it turned out to be a much better dog than she
    thought.  It cost me over 1500 to do all the legal work, but I love my
    dog so much I would have paid a lot more.  Second, in NH the person who
    initiates the contract (writes it, etc) is considered the one liable if
    they break it, as long as other things are clearly written down in the
    contract.  It took me a week to get the dog back, but because she was
    worth (at the time, she has since been spayed for age related health
    reasons) over 5,000 I had the lawyer put a lien on their house which
    they were in the middle of selling.  This woman called me up, and had
    the nerve to tell me that my dog was ready to come home now!  Anyway,
    my lawyer advised me to keep entirely away from her property before the
    sheriff or whomever delivered the dog back to me.  In NH, even if
    someone has stolen your property, if your caught on their property you
    can be arrested for trespassing.  Also, more than likely that type of
    person will lie and tell the police that you threatened them and your
    in another mess.    I'm surprised that a lawyer would tell someone to
    enter on someone else's property and take something back.  I also called two
    lawyers before I found a contract specialist who didn't laugh at it,
    but he told me that he had never had anything like this one before.  So
    I think it is important to get someone who understands and doesn't give
    you bad advice, because it took 2 years before I had the papers finally
    turned over to me and get her off my back.
    
    

    I am an avid fan of Knots also and have to agree this is incredible!
    Keep us posted...what a bizarre twist.
    
    Marianne
    

    It must be catchy!  I too am a Knots and I don't know last week was
    pretty good :).  Only 11 more hours til K.L.!!!
    
    See yah,
    
    Kerry

    ...

    Filing suit with small claims court doesn't cost much ($5? or so) so it
    would be a low risk investment.  With the pony back in their barn and
    the ulcers over it would be a chance for them to have some fun with the
    pinchers and hopefully recoup the fees.  I, for one, would go for it!

    Oh, I just thought of one other thing.  If the court didn't order the
    horse thieves to ship the pony back, the owners should also sue for the
    shipping costs!
    
    Mary

    so, What happened???  I hate it when these things just leave you
    hanging.  Its like a bad movie or something.
    
    Please, please, please