Conference noted::equitation

     FYI, in case you haven't seen them...
     There are some ideas on this subject in notes 172 and 1024.    

   Thanks,
    
    I knew those notes were out there someplace.
    
    Do you think rubber shoes might help?
    
    -maureen

    Can you provide this horse with free access to pasture? Has there been
    a change in feed? I have a horse that was trying to take out the barn
    and more turnout, less grain, and lots of hay fixed her problem.
    

    We have had a couple of these, the solution for us was simple.  Outside
    all the time except during storms.  The horse had is neighbors
    quivering in their stalls while he was kicking, and to prevent harm
    to the barn, horse etc. we just leave him out.  I have also seen people
    use those thick pads that are used for gymnastics on the walls, this
    seems to work pretty good.            

    
    My late Park Horse Stormy was BAD about kicking the walls of his
    stalls.  He went through 2 x 10's like crazy. 
    
    We ended up using a kicking chain -- 18" chain, with a fleece lined
    strap attached to his fetlock.  This stopped the kicking.  I don't
    think he ever hit himself with the chain.
    
    He was an arrogant individual and he kicked just for the fun of it.

    We had a stall kicker in our barn last winter...and no way to turn
    him out for any lenght of time, so the owners hung (hanged??)
    heavy rubber mats all around the stall (at their own expense), and
    while the kicking was not cured, the noise sure was!
                                                          

    We had a mare who kicked the sides of her stall.  We lined it with
    steel sheeting.  She only kicked it about 5 times with her shoes on and
    that was the end of that...I don't know if it was the sound or the hard
    contact and the fact that it didn't give.  She never kicked at them
    again.
    
    Good luck
    

    I love the steel sheet idea. I've been kidding hemi's parents about
    armour plating his stall. Then again, he's quite content to kick
    the steel rear trailer door.  Talk about racket!
    
    Hemi has one other endearing quality - he can get out of any pasture.
    Sometimes you can't figure out how, but you can't leave him alone.
    So turnout means I'll be spending a lot of time chasing the sweet
    critter.
   
    How about using a standing (slip) stall?
    

    Sherry-
    
    	Does this horse sound familiar.....heh, heh, heh
    
    
    RE: .0
    
    My girl friends horse (FYI- it's not sherry's) destroys anything
    and everything by kicking.  She is a maniac when being trailered!
    I had the pleasant experience of driving behind her when coming
    home from a weekend trail ride....I thought she wass gonna kick the
    doors off the trailer!
    
    What my friend did was hobble her back legs together - when trailering
    the horse did try to kick, but when she found out she couldn't - she
    behaved.  She will be purchasing some of those fetlock kick chains
    because nothing else seems to work - and she doesn't like hobbling
    her (although no one will trailer her horse w/ out them one ;^)
    
    This horse kicks before eating, while eating, after, in the field....
    she simply miserably.....why not rty the fetlock chains?
    

    
    
    	re .10  - Ricocet (how appropriate, huh?) also kicked
    		  all the way UP on the trail ride, even though
    		  we gave her the back half of a four-horse stock
    		  all to herself. Four hours to Vermont, and my
    	   	  poor Ebony stuck with her...that's when we 
    		  suggested hobbles, and they pretty much did the
    		  trick, although she did try to kick with them 
    		  on a couple of times...
    
    		  Good luck on resolving this problem....
    
    		  Sherry
    

    Do not, I repeat DO NOT, line the stall with steel sheets.  My last
    horse would kick her stalls, so I used kicking chains.  They worked
    very nicely.  I asked a place where I had just moved her to inform 
    me if she was kicking & I would bring the chains out.  When she started
    kicking about a month after I moved her there, instead of informing
    me, they lined her stall with steel.  She kicked that, somehow got her
    foot under the steel, and nearly cut through her tendon.  The injury
    took months to heal (at least 6) and she was never sound again.
    
    Either leave the horse outside all the time or for feeding, or use
    kicking chains or rubber mats.  

    I think maybe this horse just like to make noise!  He found a way
    to bang the fetlock chains against the wall, too. And seemed quite
    proud of himself!
    
    As long as the trailer is moving, he doesn't kick.  But just wait
    till you get stuck in a traffic jam.  It's hard to ignore him
    when everbody around you is staring at your trailer.
    

    A friend had one that kicked in the trailer so we would fill a grain
    bag with hay and hang it behind him against the tailgate and it seemed
    to soften the blow!

    Another "DO NOT USE" steel warning. There was a barn fire a few years back
    in one of the Northern New England states (I think in Maine) that fire
    investigators attributed to a horse kicking at a steel lined stall since
    the fire started in that stall. 
    
    An expensive alternative is to use aluminum sheething with non steel
    screws. Properly applied and maintained you should not have problems
    with getting the borse injures as in an earlier reply.

    This topic hasn't seen any activity for a while, but I wanted to reply
    anyway because it hits close to home for me right now.
    
    Most of the replies I've seen in this topic and #172 have emphasized
    damage the horse can do to the stalls and how the noise is aggravating. 
    Little emphasis has been placed on the potential damage to the horse.
    
    I bought a beautiful 5yr 16.3 Holsteiner mare last May, and now her
    future soundness is in question.  The vet said her condition is called
    thoropins (probably spelled wrong) - an arthritic condition in the
    hocks, which he believes was caused by stall kicking.  There is no way
    of knowing whether the damage was done before or after I bought her,
    because I didn't get x-rays with the vet check.  I worked with her for
    about six weeks before I bought her, and she looked perectly sound.  If
    the damage occurred after I bought her, it happened very quickly.  She
    only kicked the first couple of times she came in heat.  We tried
    putting her in a couple of different stalls, and the problem went away. 
    I think the solution for her was adjusting to the new environment and
    regular schedule for food and exercise.
    
    Now that I'm blessed with 20-20 hindsight, I consider stall kicking to
    be a VERY serious problem and I would take ANY steps necessary to
    IMEDIATELY solve the problem.  I wouldn't consider kicking chains at
    all inhumame, compared to damaging the horses legs.
    
    The treatment for my horses condition ranges from bute and time off to
    injecting hyeronic (I'm sure this is spelled wrong) acid into her
    hocks.  I'm not sure how often these injections would be done, but they
    cost $200 per hock.  We're somewhere in the middle of these alternative
    so far, and she's not sound.
    
    Anyway, I just wanted to bitch about how life is so unfair and nothing
    goes my way. ;-)  It's hard not to get depressed over the situation. 
    I've find myself saying things like "It was a stupid dream anyway to
    get back into riding.  I ought to just sell her and buy a new car." 
    But even with all my complaining, it's still more fun to have a lame
    horse than no horse at all.  And who knows, it may work out OK.
    
    Rick

    Rick,
    
    Your best bet may be to leave the horse outside as much as possible,
    even all night, as long as she can get out of the wind during the
    winter, she will be okay.  You can also keep her blanketed.
    
    good luck

    Rick,
    
    I an really sympathize with you.  I used kicking chains with my last
    horse -- they helped a lot, although nothing totally cured her.
    
    My guess is that the kicking must have gone on over a long time --
    I don't think arthritic-type conditions develop overnight.
    
    And I must also say that I've changed my opinion in the last years over
    what constitutes abuse.  Sometimes you do what you have to to protect
    the horses from themselves!  Just remember that there are always going 
    to be people (some very vocal) who make judgements based on superficial 
    -- you just have to tune them out (or spend endless hours justifying you 
    decisions to them, or tell them to butt out or whatever works for you).
    
    Mary

    re. owner...
    
    I wouldnt use the acid (its only temporary) last anywhere from
    4-6months.. mostly 3-6 weeks..
    
    You could ask your vet about adequam (sp??) it can help certain
    arthirtic changes (can be inject in the joint or in the muscle)
    
    personally if they are any type of people they would take this horse
    back for you.. this took at least 6 months to develope.. who is your
    vet??
    
    Try dr mcgee and have give you a second opinion, hes proably the only
    one i would trust other than dr anderson in (concord nh)
    
    
    	wendy o'
    
    
    
    

    Dr. Harvey in Munson, Mass is super with leg problems.  He also would
    be a good one to ask.
    
    If you want the number, let me know.
    
    Kathie
    

Thanks for the replies! (to .16 - lame horse from stall kicking)

re .17
>    Your best bet may be to leave the horse outside as much as possible,

I've ended up doing just that. I spoke with our vet some more and he 
suggested doing this and not working her for 2-3 months.  He felt that 
this is my best chance for a long-term solution.  This is a boring 
treatment (for me), but in the grand scheme of things it seems pretty 
insignificant.

re .19
>    I wouldnt use the acid (its only temporary) last anywhere from
>    4-6months.. mostly 3-6 weeks..
>    
>    You could ask your vet about adequam (sp??) it can help certain
>    arthirtic changes (can be inject in the joint or in the muscle)

He also confirmed that the acid is probably temporary. I haven't asked 
about adequam yet.

>    personally if they are any type of people they would take this horse
>    back for you.. this took at least 6 months to develope.

I aggree that this condition took some time to develop, but I personally
don't believe the previous owner has any moral obligation to take 
the horse back.  If she had the condition when I bought her, it would
have shown up on x-rays (if I had done any).  I don't believe the previous
owner purposely deceived me.  She is not a "horsey" person and the horse
wasn't lame when I bought it.  (In case you wonder what a non-horsey 
person is doing with a 16.3 Holsteiner, her previous husband thought
it would be a good financial investment.  They could have the horse
bred, make lots of babies, and be rich!!  They ended up getting divorced,
and this horse just stood around for the next four years.  Her ex-
husband is still fairly rich, so his other investments must have been
more credible than this one.)

From now on, I will definitely have a more thorough vet check when I buy
a horse.  The emotional and financial risk is too high not to take more
precautions.

re vet recommandations...

I live in Dayton, Ohio, so I have a different selection of vets than a
lot of you guys have.

I'm feeling much less dejected than when I wrote the original note.  To
me it comes down to a question of determination.  This is just one of 
many obstacles I will probably encounter towards achieving a very 
long-term goal.  I just need to do what I can to climb over it.  If 
that's not possible, I'll step back, look around, and take another route.

Rick

It's been 10+ years since my dad had a horse that needed acid
so what I remember is probably out of date any way, but it can
be close to a miracle cure.  (I think there are different sources).

I don't think you can even call it a drug in that sense of the
word, it is a lubricant that replaces the damaged or missing
joint tissue.

I don't think there is ever a true cure for arithitis, somewhere
Ellie said humaness is somewhat relative depending on the problem.

It also depends on what you want to use the horse for.

We had a standardbred racing that needed a shot something like
once every 3 or 6 months, I can't remember anymore.  Back then
it was $50 or $100 a shot depending on who did it (local vet of Tufts).

    
    personally i would try Adequan first (this can get given in the joint
    or in the muscle)  becaseue anytime** you go into a joint you run the
    risk of infection! I know they do it all the time, but I think if there
    is other alternatives then i would use those first.
    adequan is however more expensive and the acid to that every 3-4 months 
    to a horse is putting the poor thing through alot.
    
    	wendy o'
    
    
    

>> you want to fix it but consider what they go thru. 

Well of course !  If you asked someone suffering from arthritis if they     
would be willing to have 1 shot, which may hurt alittle for 1 day
but would allow them to be virtually pain free for a few months
(and do any physical activity imaginable) you'd have people standing in 
line starting the night before, like getting tickets for a rock concert.

Your horse may be different or have a slightly different injury, but
in my case (a decade ago) it was a shot of acid, and one of bute for
the pain, give the horse a day or 2 off and he'd be back in training
on day 3 or 4.

Bill

    When I had my thoroughbred (about 10 years ago) we had this done.  He
    was in a trailer accident before we got him.  The centerpiece fell and
    landed on his hocks.  One needed the injection, the other needed to
    be drained.  We used to joke with the vet about it...we all thought it
    would be easier just to siphon the big hock into the one that needed
    the injections...
    
    For the life of me I can't remember what he was given or the cost, but
    we had it done about every 5-6 months and he got 2 days off and bute if
    he was real stiff the next day.  He always responded very well to the
    treatments...and we could always tell when it was time to have it done
    again...he got cranky and very stiff...and once it was done he was back
    to being his normal lapdog self...