Conference noted::equitation

	Flat shoes have no traction on ice.  If you live in an area which
	has snow & ice, I'd either pull the front shoes or have borium
	and pads put on the front.

				-Caroline

	P.S.  What's the estimated recovery period for your critter??!

	Speaking of winter shoeing (this note may not belong here),
	I thought I'd share an idea thats working out pretty well for
	me.   

	Here was my dilemma:

	I wanted to work my horse daily, in an indoor, throughout the
	winter.  I also wanted my horse turned out all day as he normally
	is.  The dilemma is what kind of shoes do you put on that will
	be a winter shoe when he's turned out, and a riding (flat)
	shoe when he's ridden indoors?  The answer for me was to get
	those screw in studded shoes.  I take out the studs when I 
	ride him, and put them back on when I'm done.  I thought they'd
	be a royal pain to deal with daily, but I've got it down so it
	only takes about 5 minutes to take them off or put them on.

	I've heard from many different sources, and even experienced
	it myself, how borium can cause lameness in horses who are
	worked hard daily.   The borium grabs the footing and prevents
	the hoof from its natural sliding action, so the shock is taken 
	elsewhere - and often shows itself by swollen tendons.
	
	My trainer's entire barn went lame from borium last year
	so they're using only flat shoes this year.  But the tradeoff for
	having flat shoes is not being able to turn the horses out
	unless theres no snow/ice.    I found with the screw-in studded
	shoes, I'm able to have both borium and flat shoes, as needed.

	Does anyone else do this?  Does anyone else have theories about
	working horses with/without borium?

	Melinda

          Re:2
           Would your trainer be Mary Howard? My wife just recently
    started taking lessons from her. But that's another story.....
           Anyway, we've always put boriums on Peanuts, our TB, and
    Michelle still works him during the winter. I don't think she's
    ever had any problems because of them. But then again, what do I
    know? I'm only the groom and mucker!
    
                 Bob

    I have two horses....one at my home, in a situation where she is
    free to go in or out of her stall as she pleases. She has boruims
    and pads on all four. I do light trail riding with her in the winter,
    and avoid paved roads. She does excellent this way, and I have the
    reasurrance that she has as much protection as possible in the paddock.
    She has never had any leg problems from the boruims, but like I
    said, I do not work her hard with them on. The other horse is a
    TB stabled at a barn with an indoor arena. He is not turned out
    in winter unless the ground is bare, and is worked heavily in the
    indoor. He is barefoot, and will be until spring. We felt that
    seeing as there is no need for the boruims and the footing in the
    arena is soft, we would try leaving him shoeless (the farrier said
    barefoot at times is excellent for rebuilding hoof health). So far
    he has had no problems, cracks, chipping, or other dilemmas with
    his hooves. I trim them myself every few weeks (I got excellent
    instruction from the farrier before attempting this). Naturally,
    come spring both the TB and the mare at home will get *normal* flat
    shoes. A number of other people at the boarding stable go barefoot
    as well, most seem to do fine, but a few do have problems with
    chipping even without ever going outside. Guess it all depends on
    the individual situation.
    
    Linda
    

    I wouldn't put borium on a horse recovering from an injury
    without your vet's approval.  The borium can put undue stress
    on the leg, which may retard the healing process.  
    
    I've had to go without borium for just this reason.  He hasn't
    had any trouble on turnout, but we have slipped while trailing,
    so I've stopped that unless I'm sure the footing is perfectly
    safe.
    
    Just a little warning.  Good luck with the recovery.
    
    Dawn

    I don't shoe the horses that are in light work.  They do get
    trimmed regularly, hoof dressing, and biotin to keep the tootsies
    from craking.  But they aren't spoiled a bit  :>)
    
    I used to use borium regularly on the shod critters.  Flat shoes
    are dangerous on winter - or on paved roads for that matter. Some
    of the horses tolerated it well, but a couple didn't (mostly the
    TB's).  This year I'm using the screw in studs (MORDAX).  The work
    as well or better than borium spots.  You can pick different heights
    and shapes to suit the footing conditions and fill the holes with
    blanks when you don't need the traction. It's also not too expensive
    to have the shoes drilled and tapped.
    
    
    pick

    re: .0

	 Yes, borium  can go on the front and not on the back.  My horse
     is  shod  with  boriums  and  popper  pads in front and is barefoot
     behind.   He's  been  done this way each of the 3 winters that I've
     had  him.  (In the non-winter, he only has front flats on, barefoot
     behind.)

	 If your  horse  is  used to having shoes on, then the feet will
     probably crack and chip up to the clinch line on his feet.  This is
     normal.   He may also be a little sore behind without shoes.  Since
     you're  not  riding him, you shouldn't have to worry about too much
     additional wear on the chipped feet.

    I called my vet for another reason, but then ran this question 
    past her. What I ended up doing was putting the flat shoes on the
    front (because his front hooves crack) and nothing on the back feet.
    The blacksmith is at our barn every Monday, so we decided that Jimmy
    could go out as he has been, then if it gets icy he would have to
    stay in and the farrier would take off his shoes on his next trip.
    She said not to but borium at this time on because it could put too
    much stress on his legs and sometimes it makes the horse stand at a 
    slightly different angle than without borium - and she didn't want
    that to happen (a noter suggested not using borium due to leg stress).
    
    About recovery- he hasn't been ridden since August - so today will
    be the test! My daughter will try him out this afternoon walking
    (only walking) for 15 minutes max. This goes on every other day. Then
    next week he can be ridden for 20 minutes a session 
    (our stable has an indoor arena with lots of soft dirt for footing)  
    No circles. Hopefully, he won't go off. The vet will take x-rays in a 
    couple weeks to see how the bone is responding to the exercise.
                            
    He has been turned out each day for the past month for 1/2 day with some
    ponies and he runs and jumps, and looks like he feels no pain. Hope
    all goes well this afternoon. I am really anxious and nervous.
    (I don't remember being ** this ** worried back when my daughter fractured
    her wrist in three places when she was 8 years old). 
    
    Pat
    
                              

    Will be calling my farrier to come out for routine shoeing this
    week.
    
    My one (of two) horse is being boarded where an indoor is conveniently
    attached, and I am able to ride during the evenings.
    
    I like the idea of screwed-in studded shoes; and I will ask my farrier
    if this is more preferable to borium in my situation.  My TB mare is
    wearing alum. shoes at present and can't wait to have her "snow" shoes
    put on  so she can play outside.
    
    Thanks, Melinda.
    
    ...another dressage enthusiast.

    
    I guess I might be way behind the times,  but have never heard of the
    screw-in/out borium.  Sounds Neat!  Is it much more expensive?
    
    Approx. how much?
    
    Thanks
    
    kathy

	I had Dave Belt do my screw in studded shoes for $120.
	This included snow-popper pads in front as well as the
	8 studs, for which he had to hand make the 8 receiving
	holes.  (I have 2 studs per shoe).  


	

    Studs are not just good in the winter, as a hunter show ring rider,
    my daughter used them when the grounds were wet or when it rained
    during the summer. We always kept the holes clean with oil and cotton
    and we never had a problem. 
    With the pony we used borium only. It helped and we never had an
    injury or lameness.
    A GOOD farrier can do a good job, a BAD farrier can do a bad job.
    Be aware who takes care of your horses "footsies"
    Ruth
    

    
     I had to end my last lease due to the horse becoming lame.  The
    vet says she has a bad case of ringbone and at her age (20+) she
    should not be worked hard.
    
     With this, I have searched for and found a new lease.  Nice people,
    nice horse, lower price, everything is great.  One question though..
    ....these folks do not put shoes on the horses.  The farrier says that
    each horse has good hard feet that only need trimming.  I have no 
    problem riding the horse in the spring, summer and fall without shoes
    (as long as her feet can take it) but the winter is a concern.  Here's
    the question...would any of you ride the trails without borium's or
    any kind of shoe ?
    
     Your thoughts would be much appreciated.
    
     Thanks,
     Bill M.

    
    
    Barefoot is generally safer than ANYTHING but borium tipped shoes. 
    
    We have folks out here that ride all winter with barefoot horses and
    their horses have almost no problem getting around.  If the horse
    can stand going barefoot for long periods of time, have at it. 
    
    Plus you don't have to worry about snowballs building up in their 
    feet like you do with shoes. 
    

    I have to disagree about bare feet not having the problem of collecting
    snowballs, I've left my mare barefoot through winters when I had
    access to an indoor arena and only went outside rarely, but the times
    we did she picked up snowballs quickly...perhaps it depends on the
    texture of the snow at the time?? I have boriums and pads on all four
    now, she's ridden on weekends but turned out constantly and my
    blacksmith believes this is the best for her situation.
    
    

    I agree with .15. When I let my horse go barefoot he developed bad
    snowballs, not just when I was riding, but even when he was turned out.
    There were times when I was worried about him twisting a foot because
    the balls got so high. I tried putting hoof dressing or Pam spray on
    his hooves to make the snow slide off, but it never helped in his case.
    Now, although I rarely ride in winter, he still gets pads and borium
    because he's got access to the outside 24 hours a day.

I guess I'm lucky but I've never had problems trail riding in the winter (or
outdoor ring riding for that matter) with the snow balling up with any of my
horses who were able to go barefoot... I do make attempts to avoid icy hills and
such by going down where its apt to be less slippery...

Happy riding!

    I've done both my my kritters....and found that is was easier
    to leave them barefoot (and cheaper too!)
    
    I had more problems with ice balls with the shoes than without....
    wonder if this may be associated w/ the hoof shape and size?

    I believe it's the rubber pads between the hoof and the shoe that
    prevent snowballing....mine have little pop-outs in the middle. I'd
    imagine that borium-tipped shoes without pads would collect snow
    just as easily as regular summer shoes. I've heard recommendations
    for using oils such as Pam, or Vaseline to prevent the snow from
    sticking, but can't imagine it lasts very long, wouldn't it gradually
    dilute upon contact with water/snow? I do like the *idea* of barefoot
    better, gives the feet a chance to be natural, and I know the borium
    can agravate leg problems (even cause them?) because it allows for
    no give if the horse puts a foot wrong. I guess it's up to the
    individual situation, how much you want to ride, how much turnout,
    etc. My mare's paddock tends to get icy, however, so and I'm a real
    mother hen anyway! :-)
    

    
    
    The scientist in me is curious!
    
    What is BORIUM?  From a chemical perspective?
    
    THANKS!
    
      Kathy

    
    Borium or borium tips at hard metal studs that are attached to the
    horse shoes like studs on show tires. Borium is used because they
    wear  better than aluminum or whatever alloy the horse shoe is normally
    made of. The farrier welds them to the standard horse shoe.
    
    Borium is not a base element (not on the periodic table of elements)
    which means it is an alloy. The next time I see my farrier, I'll ask
    what makeup of borium is.
    
    Nancy
    

    I may be wrong, but I understood that borium is a base element. It is
    very hard, and applied by floating in a softer metal with a torch. No
    23 on the chart sticks in my head. Where is the chart when you need it.
    

re: .22
I think you're thinking of Boron, not borium.

    
    Base element atomic number 23 is vanaduim, boron's atomic number is
    5.
    
    Aren't dictionaries' wonderful!
    
    Nancy
    

	My horse has corrective shoing (wedge for a run-under heel) in front
	so there's borium at that end.  

	I tried him w/o shoes in the rear this past-fall, but it didn't work...
	ouchie soles, thin-wall shelly TB feet breaking up (primarily on the 
	inside, which affected his going!) so, again, he has borium in the rear.

	He's also one of these characters who believe they can stop at any
	time... not  having snow shoes one winter resulted with him sliding
	on his butt into a gate (the gate won).

	I've worked with the various farriers and have them just put nubbies
	of borium on - no spikes!  Just enough to give him traction and me
	peace of mind.

					-Caroline

    
    
    	Here's my dilemma:  I put borium on my horse all around a 
    	couple of weeks ago because the driveway is a sheet of ice 
    	whenever it snows and this is our only access to trails. I
    	have been riding every other weekend or so, not much, but 
    	I don't want to NOT go just because I'm afraid to negotiate
    	the driveway! The paddocks aren't icy, but the access from 
    	the barn to the paddock can get messy, so there's another
    	potential accident...
    
    	I went to the barn last night to find a note from the owner
    	saying that if I didn't pull the rear shoes she would keep
    	him inside until/unless I did. !!! She claims he's kicking
    	the other horses. Now, he is the MOST laid back horse at the
    	barn. He is in a 3/4 acre paddock, which he has shared with 
    	one other horse all summer. Three horses were moved into his
    	paddock for the winter because they have a pond in their 
    	paddock and the owners afraid they'll hurt themselves. She is
    	not a horse person, doesn't know anything about horses. One night
    	she sprayed my horse full in the face with the hose while he 
    	was on the cross ties (she was filling water buckets). I can
    	concede that he MAY be at odds with one of the other horses out
    	there, they don't get along. But the owner will not listen to
    	anyone about who goes in what paddock. We have four paddocks, and
    	the normal horse distribution is 2/2/2/3. Right now it's 2/2/5,
    	with the 5 being in the smallest paddock.
    
    	I guess my questions are, can he hurt another horse just because
    	he has borium on (my farrier says `you're more likely to cut a
    	horse with a MARBLE')? They are all blanketed, btw. Nobody has
    	been cut yet. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    
    
    
    5 horses in a small paddock = bad news to me.  With the
    weather being so cold, they are probably a little more
    rambuctious, and if they are new to being turned out
    with each other, they will gang up on the newcomers to
    play the pecking order game.....
    	
    When I was boarding, we had the same problem with a horse
    who had been shod with weighted shoes.  He was kicking the
    other horses, and causing damage to their legs and sides.
    (I know this was true, because I witnessed it and had to
    "doctor" those who were injured)
    
    He was moved to turnout by himself.........
    
    Lynne
    
    

    I would *never* turn out a horse in company if he had hind shoes.  It
    only takes one kick in the right place to do major damage.  I agree
    with -1, too -- 5 horses in a small paddock is asking for trouble, and
    in cold weather, it's begging for it.
    
    
    -ellie

    I wouldn't go *quite* as far as Ellie. Our herd is closed with a well
    established "boss" order so we feel that they can all go out together 
    even when shod. In another situation, I would probably be cautious
    about hind shoes, too.
    
    Now, about the borium: Your shoer is NUTS! They borium can and does
    cause cuts/scrapes.
    
    When we were in Peterborough we had s situation similar to yours and 
    we did shoe w/borium. One of our mares would regularly cut HERSELF with 
    the borium. She didn't interfere normally but she would scrape her 
    opposite hind leg with the shoe when getting up in her stall or "sledding" 
    in the paddock. We had the shoer remove the borium on the inside quarter 
    of her hind shoes and that solved our problem. She still bears the
    scars as they never grew hair.
    
    The point is that if a horse can cut itself with borium accidently,
    what amount of dammages do you think it would do with a well-aimed
    powerful kick?

    Shoes w/ borium on the hind end arn't allowed at the barn we board at.
    There are 6-10 horses turned out together in several acres, and even
    the most laid back horses have been known to cause up a stir.

    Caroline,
    
    re: you horse's ouchie soles, thin-wall shelly TB feet breaking up when
    he's barefoot
    
    Have you tried biotin supplementation for this horse? It's a B-complex
    vitamin. Both our shoer and vet swear by it. We started feeding it a
    couple months ago and the shoer(who I hadn't told about this) was out
    this past Friday and remarked that the mares' feet weren't as shelly on 
    their inside quarters as they had been.
    
    Just a thought
    John

    
     	After having thought this over, I know that I really don't
    	care one way or the other about pulling the shoes. I have
    	arrangements to have it done tonight, anyways...
    
    	My gripe is with the uneven distribution of the horses in 
    	the paddock. I think it should be 3/3/3 and not 2/2/5. My 
    	horse has NEVER had a problem kicking until they crowded
    	the field like this...he likes to be left completely alone,
    	and two of the horses now in `his' field are `haunts'.
    
    	Regardless, nothing will be done about it until someone 
    	gets hurt, since the barn owner's attitude is `if you don't
    	like the way things are done, then move your horse'. Since
    	as I said, she does not know the first thing about horses,
    	never having owned one in her life, I would hope that she
    	would be a LITTLE more receptive to her boarders' concerns. 
    	I am not the only one complaining about the turnout issue.
    
    	Sherry
    
    
    	PS- John, I am sure my farrier was joking, he said that 
    	because he knows how complacent my horse generally is. In
    	other words, don't worry, Ebony won't kill anybody before 	
    	I can get down there to pull the shoes.
    

    Sherry, I'd be more worried about the turnout arrangements than the
    boriums, too. A well placed kick from a barefoot horse can do a lot
    of damage, too. I'd defineatly have a word with the barn manager,
    perhaps you could get the other boarders to all get together and
    see if a different situation could be worked out, or you unfortuneate
    enough to be the only one unhappy? What seems strange to me is if
    this woman is very inexperienced around horses and doesn't own one
    of her own, WHAT on earth is she doing running a boarding stable?? :-)
    

    
    	Linda, everybody feels the same way, but whenever they have
    	approached her in the past she has been unwilling to compromise.
    	It's not a bad place, but she is a PILL. The farm belonged to
    	her ex-husband and she won it in the divorce. It's a money maker
    	for her, that's all. She does employ a barn manager, but that 
    	person's horse is always pampered, so as far as she's concerned,
    	there's no problem. ARGH!!
    
    	Sherry
    

	I have to chuckle when I see the term 'PILL' in uppercase,
	in regards to how a person manages a boarding stable.

	The reason it amuzes me is because I was just talking to
	a builder this week who told me the reason 3 new indoor
	arenas were constructed in the Peterborough area last year is
	because people are 'SICK OF BOARDING AND PUTTING UP WITH OTHER
	PEOPLE's ____!'.  He says that phenomenon has been terrific for
	his particular business.

	Melinda

    Giggle!
    
    I have to agree.....NO ONE can take care of your horse(s)
    the way you want them to be cared for, except yourself! (:
    
            (That's why mine are now home, BTW)
    
    I was lucky enough to have that option, tho'.  When I had
    to board, it really "inhaled" to have to depend on other
    people, and too many were "PILLS", let me tell ya...and
    I only boarded in two different places, and each place
    had more bad than good points.....
    
    Lynne

    Yep, I'm with Lynne! I'm MUCH happier with mine at home, even
    though I miss the advantage of an indoor arena, there's no
    substitute for caring for them yourself! :-) Maybe that's why
    there are so MANY boarding places to choose from, everyone
    keeps bouncing around trying to find the best one! :)

    I agree about the dificulties of boarding out.  However we have found
    a great place and we would stay there forever if we didn't have our own
    plans. 
    
    When dealing with the owners, I find it helps to put myself in their
    shoes before crabbing.  It makes for a more pleasant and comfortable
    environment.  
    
    Over the years, I have made some acquaintences with people who all they
    did was crab and complain about the the way things were run.....it is
    so tiring to have to listen to it all the time.  I feel if they arn't
    happy then they should leave.                    

	I also have to board out, and I'm *very* lucky to have found a
	great place to keep my horse. The policy at our barn is if horses are
	turned out together, then they can't have borium behind. We do have
	one exception to the rule, but only because the horse has already
	proven that he's a "good pasture buddy"  and he's in a good size area
	with only 1 other gelding.

	'impact statement':

	barefoot kick <= shod kick <= shod w/borium kick (generally.)

    We've had ours at home for about 15 years. We did board for a couple
    years when we lived in a village.(Kinda tough to keep a horse on a
    70'x150' town lot!) Fortunately, there was an excellent boarding stable
    about 2 miles away. It was a very well run family operation and we
    never had ANY complaint whatsoever!
    
    The only other times we have boarded were when our barn in NH was
    undergoing major repairs. We had no problems on those occassions
    either. And they were boarded about 1.5 miles from home Real lucky!
    
    Still, I'd rather have them at home even tho we don't have an indoor
    arena. But, one of these days I'm gonna win the lottery and put up an
    indoor arena! Until then, I'll school all winter in my raincoat!!
    (Don't forget, Seattle's the rain capital of the US... The Annual 
    Seattle Rain Festival is celebrated January 1 to December 31)