Conference noted::equitation

    
    I know what it's like to be on the billing end of Vet fees...we
    hope Jasper stays okay so you don't go broke. But your story prompts
    me to ask if this "new" fee of my Vet's is common.........
    
    	"a charge of $2.00 to bill me!"
    
    Do most Vets charge people a fee to send them a bill? No one else
    I do business with sends me a billing fee...is my Vet turning into
    a money hungry monster or what?
    
    				Nancy
    

    About "Tying Up" - it's also called Azoturia (because of
    the difficulty with the kidneys the horse's urine often
    gets very azure/orange in color)  I remember all of this back 
    from my 4-H days when I did a Visual Presentation on it - one 
    of the "side effects" of the sickness is colic, but the awful 
    part is that unlike regular colic the horses will continue eating 
    even though they are sick.
    
    Learning about Tying Up made me REALLY appreciate the
    importance of warming up - what happened to the noter
    isn't surprising, Azoturia is common in horses that
    aren't in the best of shape.  But it can happen to
    conditioned horses as well.  NO matter how well conditioned
    your horse is you should ALWAYS warm them up before doing
    any "serious" riding.
    
    RF
    

    That is outrageous! I would pay the bill, but certainly not the
    2$ fee. Let him sue for it! It is ridiculous, especially considering
    what they charge anyway. Else I would try a new vet..........
    

    
    Could it be considered an up-front finance charge or interest? Many
    vets hold paper for a looooooong time before they get their money.
    And since they are usually small, individual business, the most
    advanced of them running little pc's for their billing, they may
    be poorly equipped to add a monthly finance charge to their bill.
    
    I don't like these little charges tacked on to everything, either, but
    I know my vet let's you pay as you can, with no additional fee, and
    I'm sure he looses money this way.
    
    -julie
    

    re: .2  This is really picky, and just an aside, but the color azure is
    blue, not orange!
    
    Re:  the $2 charge to bill you...my people doctor offers a $3 discount
    if you pay at the time of exam/treatment, which is just another way of
    charging and extra $3 just to bill.  Maybe its a sign of things to
    come?  If you are otherwise satisfied with your vet, maybe you should
    ask about paying immediately instead of waiting to be billed.  
    
    Mary

                 As far as our vet goes, I would be WILLING to pay
    an extra $2.00 if it was necessary. The hours he keeps and the 
    extra time he has spent with our horse, whether to explain the
    problem or just telling us little things that most vets haven't
    the time for, would far out-weigh a lousy $2.00. Sometimes he
    doesn't even charge for follow-up visits. Maybe he's unique in
    his field or maybe he just likes us. I don't know. But it seems
    to me that most vets are caring, hard working individuals, who
    out of their love for all animals have chosen a sometimes over-
    burdened job and should be given credit for such. 
              Just my two cents.........anyone else agree?
    
    
                       Bob

    RE .5
    
    You are absolutely right - what an idiot I am!
    
    But the condition is called Azoturia.  I guess there's
    no connection to the name and any color!
    
    Sorry for that...
    
    RF

    To all...
    
    I also learned about 'tieing up' the hard way... and it cost a lot
    of money but I hope I became knowledgable enough to avoid it happening
    again....  In the spirit of learning from each other I'll share what
    comes to mind.......
    
    There are several key preventative approaches you (we all) can take.
    Warming up sufficiently is one... cooling out properly is another,
    keeping large muscle masses protected from cool breezes while cooling
    out, and walking are key.   And, one of the most significant things I 
    learned is that here in New England is that the soils are selenium 
    deficient.  Selenium plays a role in our equines ability to breakdown
    certain (lactic) acid.  When the acids don't break down properly they 
    get tangled up in our horses major muscle masses and cause EXTREME 
    cramps. This is tieing up... seeing your horse unable to move because 
    he/she has the kind of hurt we experience when our calf muscles cramp 
    up and wake us out of a dead sleep.  Thus - walking is not recommended 
    - and since the horse initially looks colicy we think we should walk 
    them...  Still makes me cringe to have learned that poor Fiddler was in
    such pain and I made him walk because I thought he was colicy..
    
    Anyway - One way to ensure that your horses ingest some selenium, is to
    feed them a Vitamin E/Selenium suppliment.  It comes in a powder form
    and is available in most tack shops.  VitE/Selenium can be given as an
    intramuscular injection as well (in fact is one of themany things that
    my vet did to get Fiddler back on his feet). but this would need to be
    done regularly (its not like a once a year booster).  They need it in
    their systems (that's why I choose to administer it in their feed).
    
    So... I hope that this helps.  I guess I should add that there are many
    levels of damage which 'can' occur from tieing up so it's important not
    to make 'blanket judgements' on recovery.  My horse did fully recover,
    but not without the help of muscle therapy, rest, and acupuncture......
    (it worked so I don't laugh about it)
    
    Hope you're both feeling better!
    
    holly
    
    

    my friends gelding has tied-up a few times.  The vet told her to give
    him the Vitamin E & Selemium and add electrolytes to his feed once a
    day.  

    Vitamin E/Selenium is very good for some back problems as well!  I 
    swear by this stuff.  I have an older horse (18) with arthritus.  He'd
    been periodically showing up lame with some stiffness in the 
    shoulders.  My new trainer looked at him and discovered that his
    back was hurting him as well.  She suggested that I use the Vitamin
    E/Selenium since she'd had remarkable results with it in Pennsylvania
    where she used to train.  Rail has become a different horse!  I havent
    seen lameness in months.  Also, he's become more willing over
    fences and doesnt bolt around the course like he used to.
    
    One thing thats very important though!  I discussed this treatment
    with my vet and he said that while it is used in some cases as
    an anit-inflamatory successfully, there can be a problem with
    the buildup of Selenium causing a toxic reaction.  It is VERY
    important that you not exceed the RDA of Selenium by checking
    carefully your other feed supplements.
    
    's good stuff maynard!
    
    jan
    

    A few things missing here, that I learned thru experience as well.
    
    Carbohydrates  stored in muscle tissue as qiuck energy are broken
    down into lactic acid that is to be removed by the blood as waste
    to be excreted.
    
    When the demand for quick energy is placed on muscles, they
    start to burn off the carb. at a very fast rate, which produces an
    excess of lactic acid that cannot be removed because the curculatory
    system has not reached peak (antiarobic). This build-up of lactic
    acid starts destroying muscle tissue. This causes the stiffness
    and cramps. The combo of destroyed muscle and lactic acid is what 
    causes the kidney problems. Water intake should be incouraged to
    help pass these solids and prevent permanent damage. Intake can
    be increased by feeding salt or electrolites.
    
    Vitamine E/Selenium assists in muscle metabolism, the ability to
    resist brake-down and assist in repairing. It is toxic of everdosed.
    
    All ages can be effected, as well as pore conditioned or extremmely
    fit animals but overly muscled horses are more prone.
    
    Means of prevention are;
    1; Drastically reduce or eliminate hi calory concentrates on days off.
    2; Increase feed after workout, not before.
    3; Provide proper amount of vit/min. including E/Sel.
    4; Proper warm up to peak, and gradual cool down to allow bodily functions
       time to adapt to work demands.   
    
    I did not bring the vet in, but called her to inform her of what
    I suspected, and we agreed on diagnosis. It was a mild cause, but
    tie-up just the same. Cure was to increase salt intake, thereby incourage
    water intake. Increase curculation in large muscle masses by applying
    heat with warm water, massage with a muscle liniment (vet-rite).
    Next day he was fine, so prevention included 1;I was feeding straight
    Blue Seal Sweet Feed but now divided it between Purina Athlete and
    SF., under dose of E/Sel. and an electrolite mix of light salt,
    table salt and epson salt. Same amount of work every day, 7 days
    a week to eliminate changes in feed quantities. I would walk an
    hour in the morning, followed by a rub-down. Workout in the eve
    for 2 hours, with a slow warmup to peak work, and a gradual cool
    down, followed by a warm water and vet-rite rub-down and leg
    stretching. If he got any day off, I would almost eliminate
    grain and feed straight hay. The idea was to prevent the excess
    build-up of carbohydrates and be consistant in excersize and feed
    schedule.                                           
     
    This is what I've learned...and had to apply!
    
    Hope this helps others understand, Dave'
    
    
    Three days later he was back to normal work, which is 7 miles trot
    a day w/ 25 miles on weekend. But it will always be in the back
    of my mind what happened and how to prevent it from happening again.
                                                     
    By the way (base note), his name is Jasper to.
    
    
    

    Well, I finally rode Jasper last night. It's the first time I was on
    Jasper (or any horse) since his tying up. He seemed quite frisky so it
    was a bit tough to keep him to a slow sitting trot only 1 1/2 times
    around the ring. He wanted to go further but I figured that 3 times
    around the ring was enough for the first time.
    		Cindy
    

    
    Re:6  My Vets name is Dr. Wilson at Pawtuckaway Vet Clinic...
    	  he practices out of his office in Raymond, N. H. so....
    	  if you're serious about wanting to pay a $2 billing fee, be
    	  my guest! I'm sorry for my attitude..but you don't seem to
    	  be experiencing this extra charging situation and my Vet
    	  claims everyone else's Vet charges this fee. I don't think
    	  so..and had to ask because I feel this is just too much to
    	  ask considering all the other fees! Maybe in the olden days
    	  all Vets were just hardworking individuals with little 
    	  recognition for their services..but in college nowadays they
    	  teach them Business too..which accounts for all these fees
    	  etc...because their not just Vets anymore, they have to be
    	  businessmen too.
    
    Re:2  I have never paid late or financed a Vet charge in my life!
    	  It just happens to be more convenient to be billed and pay
    	  the Vet when I write out my checks for the month. But what
    	  you suggested could be someone else's situation...but not
    	  the reason for this charge..however, good reasoning!
    
    Since I first put this note in the notesfile..I have been asking
    around about this fee...and to date, not one other person has
    been charged for any such thing and can't believe my Vets office
    claims other Vets charge this fee. I also found out some more 
    disturbing news..the Vet is getting divorced the grapevine says
    the office secretary is the reason...I talked to someone who 
    used to board at his barn until the prices went up...they claim
    this charge is an attempt to have customers pay for his divorce.
    Another person claims he misdiagnosed a horse and caused the
    horse to get worse and then refused to come see the horse when
    things got worse. The worst I heard was from a neighbor who 
    took a hurt cat to him recently for a young girl who happens
    to be very slow (handicapped) and she has nobody and does odd
    jobs for the neighbor and was responsible for the payment of 
    his services. This was all explained to the Vet before he did
    anything that the girl basically has no money, but loves the
    cat and could he help? Well he put a 3-4 stitches in the cat
    and charged her $167 dollars...you tell me where the compassion
    for her was? 
    

    Other vets may not separate the billing charge out...just include it in
    overhead, which all gets added in to their fee.  But we all pay for the
    paperwork that goes into billing, one way or another.
    
    Anyway, it sounds like you have a lot of complaints about your vet,
    other than the $2 billing fee.  As the person in .6 pointed out, $2 
    is not a great reason to drop a vet whose service is otherwise excellent.
    But if your vet is not providing satisfactory service, then that is a good
    reason to change.
    
    Maybe if you change vets, you will find it easier to change your
    attitude!
    
    Mary

                 Maybe it's time you changed Vets! 

    
    I think you ought to change vets; if you were really happy with him,
    I don't believe the $2.00 would bother you so much. I don't happen
    to live in the same area, but maybe some other noters could give you
    recommendations as to vets they are happy with.
    
    Good luck! And, if you do change vets...I'd pay the bill less the $2.00
    as a parting shot...I'm just that way!
    
    -julie
    

    
    Up to this point I have been completely satisfied with my Vet. He
    does good by me. The reason I posed this question in the first place
    is that I don't want to be taken advantage of and my husband keeps
    trying to convince me that Vets are only out for the money at my
    expense and to be careful. I think that questioning a charge is
    my way of making sure I'm being dealt with honestly. But I needed
    the input of others before I could make up my mind to push this
    issue any futher. Unfortunately the problem with asking questions
    is that you tend to hear the bad things as well as the good. I'm
    sure the stories are based on some truth...but all the same they
    are hearsay...and I don't think I should fire the Vet on what I've
    heard, but I do want to get an idea of where he stands and what
    motivates him. To hear on one hand that most Vets are compassionate
    and then on the other to have some claim my Vet is not...well, it
    put my feelings in conflict and again I wanted some opinions. 
    	I am a reasonable person. This Vet is young and new, and so
    am I in dealing with him. But I deal with other farms also and
    a variety of Vets thru my relationships with these farms. So I have
    a pretty good idea of what charges have been common for me over
    the past few years and the Vets I deal with. So when I realized
    that the price of shots were higher with my Vet than all the 
    others I asked why...and he told me that the prices went up and
    this was the first time in 5 yrs. When he sprung a surprise 
    emergency charge on me...we sat down and discussed it. And when
    he told me off-handedly one day that there would be a $2.00 charge
    included in my bill..I asked what for. He told me because other
    Vets were doing it and people were surprised he wasn't and told
    him he should be charging this fee. My husband was furious! He
    believes that the prices the Vet charges already include enough
    to cover his operating expenses. 
    	I just found it hard to believe that there was such a fee
    commonly charged by Vets. I'm paying the same if not more for 
    everything everyone else pays for. The suggestions to pay the
    fee and just forget it are hard for me to swallow. What if he's
    testing the waters for future fees? I think I am just trying to
    be a good consumer by asking if my Vet's fees are competitive
    and his charges are standard for the industry. I think that
    $2.00 dollars isn't the issue here, if it were $200.00 you just
    tend to get angry on top of things...I'm not angry ...but I'm
    concerned.
    
    			Nancy
    

    When I went to college, they allowed you to defer your tuition
    payments for a $10 fee.  If you did not make a payment and did not
    elect to defer your bill you were slapped w/ a $100 late fee.
    
    I don't think what he is asking is unreasonable, and if I had a 
    choice to pay the whole amount up front or for a service fee, partial
    payments, I would opt for the payments.
    
    It sounds like you are upset over the principal of the whole thing, and
    I can't say I can't blame you either.  But it also sounds like like you
    have some other grippes with him too.
    
    If he is the vet you like the most, then you'll have to accept his
    rules.  Otherwise go to someone else with rules you perfer.
    
    Michele

    re: .17
    
    Your husband believes the vet charges enough to cover his operating
    expenses?  I'm curious as to how your husband knows what your vets
    operating expenses are?   And has your husband ever heard of the "free
    market?"  Veterinarian prices aren't fixed.   He's free to charge
    whatever he thinks is reasonable, and in any way he thinks is
    reasonable.  And you are free to use another vet.
    
    What it boils down to is this:
    
    If you don't consider the services your veterinarian provides are worth
    the fee he charges, change vets.
    
    If you do consider the services your veterinarian provides are worth
    the fee, keep him and don't worry about it.
    
    Just remember that the grass is always greener on the
    other side of the fence.  Also remember that there probably isn't a vet
    (or blacksmith, or boarding stable, or trainer, or instructor, or any
    other service provider) around who gives 100% satisfaction to 100% of
    clients 100% of the time.  In other words, there is always a trade off
    and someone is always going to have a bad story to tell.  (If there are
    a dozen horror stories circulating, however, that is different!)
    
    And just my $2 worth--I find that when I start worrying about 
    nickle and dime stuff I cause myself a lot of extra headaches and
    sometimes end up spending a lot of extra money.  

    Someone a few replies back suggested paying the bill minus the $2.00
    fee. I strongly disagree. I don't think you should ever burn your
    bridges with the vets, farriers, feed stores and others you depend on
    for your horse's well-being. Although there are choices, you never know
    when you might be in a situation when you need that individual's
    services again.
    
    -Andrea- 

    RE:  .21
    
    I agree 100% with that!!!  I try to pay the vet when he comes out for
    the call, but if I don't happen to see him I will send him a check with
    the receipt he leaves at the barn.  If it happens that I don't have a 
    receipt and I don't see him at the barn, his is the first check that
    gets mailed when the bill comes in.  Like a previous reply said, these
    people are trying to make a living and they can't be expected to run
    out in the middle of the night or on a weekend for someone who doesn't
    pay!!

    
    re: 20
    
    Absolutely Right!
    
    Just another point of the Vet's bills that no one has mentioned yet is
    STUDENT LOANS.....!!!  Unless your vet was lucky enough to have a
    wealthy family finance his education,  he is probably saddled with some
    big debts to pay back  (which are all part of his operating expenses).
    As a rough guess I'd say it probably costs over $100K these days for
    vet school only, not including undergrad.  
    
    I also am not 100% sure that they are taught business courses in school
    these days.... Do you know that for Absolute fact?
    
    Anyways,  good luck.....!!!
    
    Happy Horse Owning!
    
    kathy

    Pay or sell the horse!
    
    If $2.00 are too much to pay for a VET service, then sell the horse.
    A horse is a luxury and not a car. Be happy the VET, (satisfied
    with so far) comes when you need him.
    
    My $2.00 worth.
    Ruth
    

    When it comes to horses, I NEVER have a problem shelling out the 
    money.  I just love to spend it on my critter, whether it is 20.00
    or 200.00.  I may never buy myself another new dress or matching
    accessories, yet my critter will be wearing a new halter, leg wraps,
    saddle, whatever.  When it comes to Vet bills, his health is first,
    so I don't have a problem paying whatever is necessary to keep him 
    in healthy, ridable shape.  
    
    I am going to make it a point to update my own health, 'cause it 
    occurred to me that if I'm not fit to ride, what kind of fun can 
    I have on my healthy critter?  In regards to person who said the 
    horse is a luxery, My Horse is a Necessarity!  I don't know if I 
    could ever go back to not having a horse.  I keep up my car so I 
    can get to the barn and get to work to pay for my board, vet and 
    shoeing bills.  
    
    The idea about paying at time of service to avoid the billing fee
    was a good one if you are that concerned with the extra 2.00 charge.
    
    I love that bumper sticker I saw:  Proverty is owning a Horse ! 
    That says it all!
    
    **Marti**

    In the same light as the previous reply...My horse is definatly a
    nesessity. When he complains about the cost, I just tell my husband the
    horse is cheaper than a psyciatrist, and with the stress of my job I
    would need one otherwise. Nothing like a good gallop after a hard day!!
    Sandy