Conference noted::equitation

    Hi Sherry,
    
    You really don't want to slow the trot down to  sit to it.  If you
    do this, you lose impulsion and end up with a trot more fit for
    the western pleasure ring than anything else.  It's also a difficult
    thing to reschool when you're "ready" to sit a working trot. My
    trakehner was schooled this way and I'm having a heck of a time
    with him.  Maybe try sitting a couple steps at a time - just until
    your seat gets unsteady - then start rising again.  Strive to add
    a few steps each day. This way you can keep the trot and both of
    you can be comfortable.
    
    -maureen
    

    Sherry,
    
       One thing I've done for downward transitions is ride a small circle
    before the transition.  Or if the horse isn't up for that yet, try
    spirally in on a circle till it gets too tight and he's ready to do
    the transition on his own.  The only thing you have to be careful of
    is not to let him do it on his own, but figure out the right point to
    ask him for it.
    
    						Jan

Thanks for both tips!

Hi Maureen...I didn't think I should be slowing it down, and I have been 
sitting for a few strides before going back to posting.  Eventually, I'll
get there :-) (my muscles are still protesting this sudden exercise, as I have
not ridden for a year).  I think the other part of the problem is I don't have
the right muscles toned and/or stretched enough to accomplish this.

Jan..I hadn't thought of that.  I'll give it a try.  I know he can trot in small
circles.  He has the balance down pat, but he doesn't have the muscle
condition yet (after having a year "off", he is just getting muscles again).
I have been using the small circles (at a walk) when he anticipates the 
canter and starts getting ancy.  I hadn't thought of using them for the
transitions.  

This is the first time I have been working with a horse and not had
a trainer around to help and correct me.   I am learning alot
through trial and error.  I guess in order to really learn, you need to make
mistakes first. 

Thanks for the help

Sherry

    Hi,
    Not that I'm a great expert on the subject, but two questions. One,
    do you use a tight nose band and what kind of bit are you using.
    The suggestion to transition down by making circles is great for
    a short time but it's not a permanent fix.  I think a stronger bit
    will do wonders for you.  On the other hand some horses love light
    hands and if will respond so much better for you.  My horse is this
    way the lighter I am with my hands (keeping them very low) the better
    he is.
    Hope this helps.
    Fred
    

    Having a stronger bit is, most of the time, a substitute for lack of
    leg and firm hands. I have a horse who hates downward transitions.
    However, working on flexing and collecting him has really helped his
    transitions. First of all, I have a firm (not tight) hold on his mouth
    and am using my legs and seat to (in effect) drive him into the bit.
    
    So if you keep hold of his mouth, try seating deep in your saddle
    (shoulders back) and push with your legs. Remember use the bit as a
    brake but only as you need it.
    
    I ride Jasper with an eggbutt snaffle and actually the best transitions
    have been when I ride bareback and he really feels the leg pressure.
    
    What also helps is to picture the bit as a wall (my riding instructor 
    uses that term alot) and you're driving your horse's hind end to this
    stationary wall. Don't let your horse get a hold of the bit and make
    sure your hold is firm (don't loosen until the transition is done).
    
    Downward transitions are tough. Sometimes it helps to do a half-halt
    just prior to a downward transition. Also, the horse needs to be on
    the bit (he shouldn't have the bit between his teeth but on his gums -
    otherwise you know who is running the show).
    
    Good-luck.
    			Cindy
    

    
    About the sitting trot - does the horse work on a lunge-line?  I would
    try putting something on him to keep him 'round' - like side reins or a
    chambon (sp?) and then have a friend lunge you on him.  You can do some
    exercises at the sitting trot, like arm circles, etc, and maybe work
    without irons.  This should help to deepen your seat, and help him to
    accept your sitting to the trot.
    
    I have one horse who gets very tense about his back - doesn't like to
    be sat on, etc., and we do this sort of thing a lot.  It's made a big
    difference.
    
    On the downward transitions - careful about sitting TOO deep.  This can
    cause him to hollow more.... Good luck!
    
    Amy
    

Great suggestions!!  I will definately try the lunge line next time I can
snag someone up there with me.  I'll let you know how it goes (due to having 
gone away for the weekend and the weather being too hot to ride after
work, I haven't been up there in about a week).

thanks

sherry

    Since I"m a beginner I don't know if this is an obvious suggestion or
    something you really shouldn't do, but I find it much easier to sit to
    the trot when I'm _not_ using my stirrups.  I also fall into the trap
    of slowing down to make sitting easier.  "Centered Riding" does have
    some excellent suggestions that almost anyone can follow.
    
    Now, to learn to post without stirrups, . . .
    
    Good luck! 

    I have been riding without my irons, and it does make a big 
    difference.  I am finding that I am more in tune with the horse
    and have a deeper seat when riding without irons.  So I am trying to 
    ride without them for most of my ride.  
    
    We have made progress with the transitions though.    If he is
    not overly excited about something (such as anticipating a canter),
    he will now make the transition as soon as I stop letting my arms flow
    with his stride. 
    
    Sherry
    
    

    Hi, I've been having trouble with the upward transitions and I was
    hoping to get some fresh ideas.  When I ask my mare for an upward 
    transition, she gets all excited throws her head set, swishes her
    tail and goes off for several strides and then settles back down
    to the correct head set and speed.  The entire process takes about 4 to 
    8 strides, and it is noticeable enough to keep our scores lowered.

    My trainer has us doing a lot of transition work on circles, working on the
    center line or diagonal.  She thinks part of the problem is my anticipation
    of the work to be done and how I communicate the transition to the horse.
    I've been working on it, but not with much success.  On the lunge line,
    she acts similarly going upwards.  Any ideas?

    We have downward the transitions down pat.


    Thanks-

    Michele

Re: 1007.11
I have (more or less) resolved a similar (identical?) problem with transition 
from walk to trot. The problem wasn't the horse. It was me.
The problem was "anticipation". Now I thought I was calm and cool, but
the horse learned characteristic body cues of me preparing for an upward
transition. Eg. a slightly tighter grip on the reins, back getting stiff,
legs getting locked as they give the aid. weight shifting ever so slightly
forward. All of these (or any one of these for that matter) told my 
horse, "the jerk on your back is up to something... but what?" so the horse
got nervous and often leap or rushed into the next gait to "get it over with"
because the horse learned as soon as it did "something" then I'd relax.

The proper thing for me to do is stay relaxed all the time. (Easy huh?) Don't 
give the horse any reason to become worried or confused. If I tense, the horse
tenses. if I am truely cool and calm then the horse is also.
So,I had to break some habits, like 1) don't change my grip (unless I am on
a long rein...) 2) sit up, 3) breath out, 4) ask for trot clearly and unhurried.
5) enjoy it. 
It didn't happen immediatly as the horse kept anticipating my bad habits and
reacting to any one it could sense.  I am not entirely in the clear yet but 
alot better. It's taking time to de-program both the horse and myself.
The horse is willing to do it right, it just was confused by the "noise"
I was giving it. So my job is not to give it "noise".

The training exersise seems to be circles. Big circles, little circles,
spirals, but the key is don't ask for anything until both you and the
horse are "comfortable" at the current gait. 

FWIW

Ed P

Hi Michelle,

Without knowing or having seen your horse, this advice may be way off.
Based on what you've tried, I will suggest something you may not have
tried.   One way to keep a horse's connectivity through an upward 
transition is to exaggerate the current gait (be it walk or trot).
If walking, really get quite a 'march' going.  If trotting, try to
get a as forward a trot (preferably a lengthening).  Be sure your
exaggerated gait is relaxed and rhythmical (ie, don't get the horse frantic).
Also be sure when you ask for a little more forward, the horse feels correct 
(soft) in your hand. When things are going well like this, then ask for
the upward transition. Never, never ask if things aren't going well.
Try not to change your own 'circle of aids' with the horse during the 
transition. In other words, keep the seat, leg, hand aids the same
throughout your transition and don't 'throw them away'. The horse
needs your support more than ever before and during the transition.
Also, always tell the horse he's good in an upward transition just
in case he's associated any fear with it.

The idea is to teach the horse to come from behind more, in this
exaggerated way, and to get the transitions without the back hollowing.
Once the horse can do this consistently, then you can gradually
go back to a normal stride before the transition.   It is understood
that this is only a temporary schooling technique to show a horse
how to use himself through a transition.  This would never be 
a 'standard' thing since it tends to encourage the upward transition
to be heavy and on the forehand.

Melinda

	re: .12 

	Ed-

	I truly believe that I am part of this problem because of the
	exact areas you discussed.  I have never tried breathing out, though.
	I do see a difference in the way I ride at a show and at home.  At the
	show I'm more nervous and make silly mistakes because I rush, but at 
	home everything is pretty consistant.  I guess that's where experience
	comes into effect.

	

	RE: .13

	Melinda-

	I think you've got something here.  If we're trotting and I urge
	her into extended work, if I'm not careful she'll break into a 
	canter....very smoothly.  She really tucks her head nicely and moves
	out, but then I think it's very easy for her to break into the canter 
    	if I don't maintain the right amount of contact.  I haven't noticed 
    	it with the walk because she's so pokey, it's very hard to get her to 
    	move forward.  But, now I'll have pay closer attention.

	I don't follow your comment about not throwing away the aids.  Should
	I encourage her to move on or not??
	
                        
	Thanks, I am looking forward to the end of the rain to get back to
	work.

	Michele

    Michele,
    
    Is your horse a little on the hot or sensitive side? If so, then I
    would think that the major part of the problem would be the cues she
    picks up from rider tension and preparation for the transition. In
    plain English, I'm more inclined to agree with Ed if your horse is hot
    or sensitive. Partly because I know that you are a relative novice and
    I KNOW that I had the same sort of problems with hot horses when I was
    a novice. Partly because sensitive horses can take even the slightest 
    error by a rider as an insult and "rebel" by tossing their head or
    something.
    
    If the horse is a laid back sort that is relatively unaffected by minor
    rider errors, I might try Melinda's suggestions as a temporary measure.
    
    From your description, it sounds like the horse is sensitive and
    eager and that she is anticipating the upward transition. Do you
    usually do the transitions in the same part of the arena(e.g. only on
    the diagonal)? If so, you might try doing the transitions in different
    places so that the horse doesn't think:"Oh we're coming to C time to
    gear up!"
    
    Some exercises that might help are the following:
    	1. At the trot, sit and collect her stride on the short end of the
    arena. On the long side, lengthen her stride and rise at the trot. As
    you approach the corner, collect and sit the short side again. You are
    teaching the horse to lengthen and shorten stride on command as well as
    performing a transition between the sitting and rising trot. After
    going around the arena in this way 2-3 times cross the diagonal at a
    rising trot and continue at the rising trot once around. Take a short
    breather and repeat the exercise in the new direction.
    
    	2. When that goes fairly well, you can try transitions between walk
    and sitting trot. Get your horse going well in the sitting trot. After
    about 3-5 strides as for the down transition to a somewhat collected walk. 
    Don't let the reins lengthen from where you were holding them for the
    sitting trot. Keep the horse active(i.e. don't let it fall asleep
    because of the down transition) After 3 strides at the walk, ask for a
    sitting trot. Continue around the arena in this manner alternating
    between the walk and sitting trot every 3-5 strides. After going around
    ONCE, rise at the trot and change direction across the diagonal. Take
    a break and repeat in the new direction. This exercise will teach the
    horse to stay alert and responsive to the cues for both upward and
    downward transitions.
    
    Don't get discouraged!
    John
    

Michelle,

I'll try to clarify my comment about not 'throwing away the aids' when
asking for an upward transition.  You want to keep whatever 'rider contact' 
you have when things are going well in your exaggerated gait as you go
into your transition.  This rider contact is often referred to as a 
'circle of aids' -- in summary, its the balancing of your seat, leg and 
hand aids which keeps your horse in its forward, yet soft, rhythmical state.
An analogy that comes to mind is learning to drive a standard, and trying
to figure out the timing of giving the gas and releasing the clutch.

Don't get me wrong though -- still ask for the canter with normal canter
aids.  Just don't 'stop' using your 'circle of aids' to maintain your
horse's throughness.   

One of the hardest parts of doing this exercise is teaching your horse to 
accept the exaggerated pace.  At first, they'll wonder 'whats up?' and you have
to wait it out until they relax into a rhythm.    

What typically happens to riders of all levels is that while they're
working some problem movement, or any new movement, they forget to ride
the horse and by that I mean they just stop thinking about keeping the
balancing act of their 'circle of aids.' A memorable term told to me once was 
'Ride the horse, not the movement.'   This phrase means simply, no matter
what you're working on, don't forget the basic principles...)

Melinda

re:1007.14

Michelle,
	A note or so back, Melinda made a comment that made me think abit 
	more of what I was doing and how it relates to smoothing out my 
	transitions, maybe this will help, maybe it's not relavent.

	Since my horse is relatively small (15.2) and I am not what
	you would call "tiny" my balance plays a large part in the
	horses ability to move freely and gracefully. I gained alot
	smoother transitions when I started getting the hindend working
	more rather than the forehand. By keeping my posture upright
	and keeping my weight off his forehand I was rewarded with a much
	smoother transition, since he didn't have to "fight" to get into
	the trot. (So he was more relaxed and freer to move forward.)
	Working to get the hindend engaged, he moves off without trying to
	"scramble" into the next gait. (eg tying to "pull" his body forward
	and keeping his balance.) Working from the hind-end allows the horse
	to push off and keeps the forehand light and freemoving.

	My bad habit of "leaning forward" makes this a battle because
	I can't work the hindquarters while climibing up his neck! :-)
	For me a solid exhale, and what feels like sitting back, (which in
	actuality is putting me vertical) frees up the horses shoulders
	and shifts the weight enough that I am no longer causing him so much
	work getting into the trot (or canter for that matter). The horse 
	doesn't have to throw its weight up in order to free up the front
	legs to pick up a trot. Settling my weight back a bit and using 
	my seat to get the hindend engaged even enhances the motion.
	Without the horse having to stuggle on the up transition, he is
	quiet and calm about the the movement. result: smooth transition.

	Of course I eventually get tired, tense up, lean forward and 
	screw everything up the next time.

	I am sure there is very fancy mumbo-jumbo for all this but from
	my "let's not eat any dirt today" attitude that's what's happening
	with me and my, shall we say, rather hot horse.

	again, FWIW.

Ed P
	

     John,	

     I have some questions based on your comments.    

>    Is your horse a little on the hot or sensitive side? If so, then I
>    would think that the major part of the problem would be the cues she
>    picks up from rider tension and preparation for the transition. 
	
     Yes, in many cases a rider's tension contributes to rough transitions, 
     but how does this explain why the horse does the exact same thing on the 
     lunge line?  I never rule out rider error, but because the horse has the 
     same problem on the lunge, my guess is that it isn't a rider error.
	
>    If the horse is a laid back sort that is relatively unaffected by minor
>    rider errors, I might try Melinda's suggestions as a temporary measure.

     I'm not sure I understand why you think the technique I explained is
     more appropriate for laid back horses.  Also, I'm not sure why you'd think
     the technique I described allows a rider to make more errors.  

     Btw, I think the technique you described - teaching the horse to stay 
     through when doing tempo changes - is excellent - I do this often
     at both trot and canter to encourage lightness and responsiveness.

     Melinda
     


    

    Melinda,
    
    I wish I could answer all questions as easily as the ones you just
    posed! First of all, I interpreted Michele's statement in .11 as meaning 
    that her mare did the same thing while on the lunge with a rider up.
    Many instructors lunge their students and I just assumed that that was
    what's happening here. That may have been a misinterpretation but it 
    doesn't matter. I figured that even if the mare was being lunged w/o a 
    rider, she had learned that upward transitions are to be done with tossing 
    of the head and rushing off as she does w/a rider. 
    
    I don't at all think the technique you described allows a rider to make
    more errors. I meant that laid back horses are more tolerant of rider
    errors than hot horses are. I also meant that if the horse is laid back 
    there is less chance that rider anticipation/error would be the cause
    of the problem in which case one would have to concentrate on the horse. 
    (BTW, thanks for making me clarify that. I get sloppy sometimes because I 
    already know what I mean!)
    
    You asked why I think the technique you described is more appropriate for
    laid back horses. In your description of it, you talked about exaggerating 
    the gait and pushing the horse along before taking the transition from a 
    quiet steady gait. 
    
    I would use the technique you suggested for a hot horse IF the horse had
    already been taught to be steady and quiet while lengthening at the
    walk or trot. But, I think that a hot horse which has already learned to 
    do upward transitions badly would a) rush, b) anticipate the upward 
    transition and c) never settle into the nice steady rhythm that you 
    want. In short, I don't feel that you can push a hot horse and expect it 
    to be quiet and steady in early stages of training. I feel that you have to
    teach them to be quiet and steady as well as to lengthen a bit before you 
    can push. 
    
    John

     John,

     Thanks for clarifying the rider error thing.  I'm still finding
     I'm not understanding you correctly, when you say

>    I would use the technique you suggested for a hot horse IF the horse had
>    already been taught to be steady and quiet while lengthening at the
>    walk or trot. 
   
     Later, you say something which seems to contradict the previous sentence:

>    I feel that you have to teach them to be quiet and steady as well as to 
>    lengthen a bit before you can push. 

     I'm not sure why when I described a lengthening you assumed it to
     be unsteady and not quiet, but when you describe a lengthening it is
     assumed to be steady and quiet.   

>    You asked why I think the technique you described is more appropriate for
>    laid back horses. In your description of it, you talked about exaggerating
>    the gait and pushing the horse along before taking the transition from a
                  ^^^^^^^
>    quiet steady gait.

     Just in case there was any misunderstanding, I tried to convey
     how very important it was for the rider not to change the balance of
     his aids, thereby disrupting the rhythm or connectivity prior to the 
     transition.

     Contrary to your opinion, in practice, I've found this technique 
     reduces a horse's tendency to rush into transitions, since if they are 
     already going in their most ground covering stride when you ask for the 
     canter, then there's less of a window of opportunity for them to increase
     their tempo.  But more importantly, the lengthened stride into the 
     transition enourages the back not to drop through the transition.     

     I think green horses run into transitions to try to muster the
     thrust needed for strike-off.  I think we're so worried about the 
     end result that we become insistent and inflexible about how we
     go about asking (ie we figure maybe if we try this 130 times from
     a working trot, he may just accidentally realize how to stay round
     through the transition).  At some point you have to remind yourself,
     that the way you're asking the horse, isn't working.  So try something
     different.  There are strengthening exercises that can be done,
     which don't involve the upward transition.   These may work.
     But the horse may have already decided that his current way of 
     hollowing his back during an upward transition, is perfectly fine by him
     and no matter how strong and well connected he becomes
     with other exercises (which don't involve the upward transition),
     he'll continually do his transition 'the way he always did.'

     This is only one approach, and like any other it may not be suitable
     to a specific horse.  But I certainly wouldn't classify it as an 
     approach that shouldn't be used for hot/sensitive horses.  I've
     seen success with it with both hot and cold varieties.   


     Melinda

     

    ...ah hi...It's me....
    
    Let me clarify working on a lunge line.  I am lunging my mare from the 
    ground as a warm up to saddle work, or as a short workout if my time
    is limited.  And it is entirely possible that she has learned poor
    transitions while I'm in the saddle and is doning what she knows on the
    lunge line.
    
    I would not classify her as hot or sensitive.  She is eager and
    aggressive (The Alpha horse), but some days she can be goosey.  She
    is also 2 months pregnant, and her hormones are making her more
    agressive.  I don't mean agressive in a bad way, but I wouldn't call it
    hot.  I perceive a hot horse as one which would be tough to control or
    ride.  The whites of the eyes show, they work into a lather quickly. 
    Maybe I'm wrong.
    
    As a novice, I have the usual issues with concentrating on form, and
    when I forget, I get sloppy.  When I have to make a transition,
    sometimes I feel very rushed and make a sloppy one.  Usually, I'll do
    it over to reinforce the correct way for both me and my mare.  Taking
    a deep breath before asking for a transition will probably keep me from
    rushing.
    
    Last nite I went on a trail ride because the ring was very boggy.  We
    walked mostly, becasue the trail was boggy.  When we hit some pavement
    I did some walk-working walk-jog transitions.  All I did was apply some
    extra leg pressure.  She moved forward each time really well and
    'together'.  I also discussed this issue and suggestions with my trainer
    and we'll be looking more closely to the details around the transition
    on Friday.  Curently, we do a lot of circle and transition work on the 
    rail now, alternating the point of transition so it is not anticipated.  
    But so far we have not been able to figure this one out.
    
    Thanks again for the suggestions.  hopefully we'll be able to figure
    this one out before the championships.
    
    Michele 

    Melinda,
    
    Why do you think it's inconsistent to say that you have to teach a hot
    horse to be steady and quiet as well as lengthening before you can push
    them into a transition through a lengthened gait? Didn't your
    description involve just that(i.e. pushing a horse into an upward
    transition through a lengthened gait)? All I was trying to say is that
    a sensitive/hot horse would need to have learned those things before I
    would try that technique. I'm not sure that I would try the technique
    with a sensitive/hot horse that has already learned to do transitions
    badly with a hollow back(i.e. head in the air). Contrary to your
    opinion, lengthening does not guarantee a rounded back. I have known 
    horses that could lengthen with a hollow back. If you watched the
    Olympics, you even saw horses do Grand Prix with a hollow back!
    
    I neither said nor implied that your description of a lengthening was
    incorrect in anyway. In fact, I was careful to say that your
    description include taking the transition from a quiet steady gait! You
    even quoted the section! To paraphrase Monty Python, "The room for an
    argument is next door."
    
    I fully agree that you have to teach the horse to round its back during
    transitions and that hindquarter strengthening is often necessary
    before you can get good transitions. 
    
    John

John,

Forgive me if I've been argumentative.  When you stated you wouldn't
suggest the method I proposed for hot/sensitive horses, I couldn't see
how your proposed method was any more suitable for hot/sensitive horses
than mine, since it involved lengthenings as well. 

You are right that it is contrary to my opinion that lengthenings can
be performed with hollow backs.  I would say it wasn't a lengthening then.
I think your intention was to point out how asking for a lengthening
doesn't automatically give you a lengthening, and realizing the difference
is vital.

Do we have a truce yet?  I do enjoy our 'theory sessions', and I don't mean
to appear argumentative.  We'll probably be kicked out of this note if we
keep up the theory stuff much longer.

Melinda

    Kick you off this note?  Naw...we're enjoying it too much!
    
    ;-) Mary

    Melinda,
    
    Ya can't have a truce when there hasn't been a war! This has only been
    a lively discussion heated up by a failure to communicate clearly. We may 
    have stepped on each others toes but that's just a crude form of
    dancing, not war. ;-) 
    
    The basis of my reluctance to use the method you suggested for a
    hot/sensitive horse THAT ALREADY HAS DIFFICULTY WITH UPWARD TRANSITIONS
    lies in past experience with such horses. The ones I've known tended to 
    rush and fuss as I mentioned a couple back. In short, when you push, they 
    run. If you're experience is different, that could explain most of our
    differences of opinion in this discussion.
    
    I agree that a lengthening with a hollow back is incorrect. I thought
    about making a parenthetical statement about that and what you just said
    about knowing the difference. I decided not to because I figured I'd
    say it badly and somebody'd be ticked. Apparently, a lot of people
    either can't tell the difference or aren't able to correct the
    situation because I see it all the time even from people who SHOULD know 
    better. 
    
    Mary's right. They won't kick us out. Our "debates" are too entertaining! 
    
    John