Conference noted::equitation

	I was sorry to read about your loss, Kathy - sharing this information
is greatly appreciated and may save other horses lives...

	With your permission, I will share this information and the Toxicology
hotline number with the owner of the feed store in town.  I spoke with him
about it and he had not heard anything about but was very concerned and asked
me to get him more info. on it.  He sells pastures mixes with Alsike clover
also.

    Kathy, also my sympathies.  I have one question however.  How is
    it that this has not been made public before.  Surely with the number
    of horses in this country and the number of farms this must have
    happened before.  Surely with such a highly toxic effect cases can't
    have been too isolated.
    
    again, my condolances.
    
    stephanie

Re. - .2

I have asked myself this question over and over again, but don't have an answer.
I have done extensive research in vet books, and with vets all over the country
and everything says yes, it does cause problems and even death.  My only 
thought is that out of everyone who owns horses, how many of those people have 
acutally seeded their fields.  And out of those who have reseeded, how many
horses have "mysteriously" gotten sick and died and how many deaths were
attributed to colic or some poisonous plant, never identified?

It is my intent, with the support of my vet, to create an article and 
publish it wherever I can.  Though I could copy probably
10 different books and articles, we are currently trying to get copies of some
sort of research that has been done on it.  Most everything I find so far
references that yes, it causes these problems.  Nothing states just what 
exact type of poison this plant contains, nor can anyone I've spoken to
tell me how much they need to eat to be poisoned (though the Iowa hotline did
say the longer they are on it the worse they are, and if you get them off it
soon enough, hopefully they will recover).  

Kathy

    Thank you Thank You Thank you for posting this note.
    
    I am planning on reseeding my pastures next year.  I had NO IDEA
    that alsike clover was toxic to horses.
    
    If you have a short summary of the effects of alsike clover and
    how to recognize them, it may be a good idea to write to the horsey
    magazines (Equus, Practical Horseman, etc) as well as to the farm
    journals with your experience.  Could save someone elses horses
    life.
    
    Dana

    I agree with .4, please send this valuable information to the equine
    magazines and I to the Horseman's Yankee Pedlar too.  They cover
    a large area reaching many horse owners and farms.
    
    I'm so sorry, Kathy, of your loss.  I know how difficult a decision
    you had to finally make.  What were the test results on your 6 mos.
    old colt?  Also, what is the status of your other horse who had
    the toxic poisoning in his system?
    
    Pat
    

The results are back on my 6 mos old colt.  He, too, has the liver damage.  I 
am waiting to hear from the vet this a.m.  The colt does not show any signs
that anything is wrong, and the message the vet left on my recorder was that
his blood tests showed he is past the chronic point.  I am hopeful that both
horses will make it, seeing they've been off the pasture for two months now.

I have contacted the Yankee Pedlar, and expect to hear back from them within
a week as to whether or not they will run an article.  The Horseman magazine 
is what originally clued me in that this clover was poisonous.

This clover is in almost every pre-made pasture mixture you buy.  

Thanks for the support,
Kathy

Can you describe what the alsike clover itself looks like?
Does it look anything like the white or red clover most of us are familiar with?

Do you know:
What color are the blossoms?  How tall is it?  How big are the leaves?

Thanks.

Michelle

Alsike Clover looks like regular clover, the only difference being Alsike does
not have leaves attached directly to the flower.  This makes is easily recog-
nized.  The flowers can be red, white or pink, and the plant can grow up to 24"
tall.  The leaves look like ordinary clover leaves.

Under the "right" conditions, it does affect ALL horses.  The problem is, I
haven't been able to find anyone who can identify "right" conditions.  If it
is going to affect 1 horse in the pasture, it will affect them all.  According
to the hotline in Illinois (Large Animal Toxicology Hotline) it should never
be used for horses, though it doesn't affect other animals as bad.

My vet is currently waiting for two research papers done on it in Ontario.  When
I get that info, I will post it here.

Kathy

    Kathy,
    
    What about hay purchased for our horses?  Do we also need to question
    if there is alsike clover in our hay?  I do not have pasture so
    mine feed on hay and grain.  The man I purchased my hay from does
    reseed his fields every two years.
    
    I also feel very sorry for your loss as it brings back memories
    of my loosing my mare last year due to colic.
    
    Nancy
    

Nancy,

I have not been able to find out if it is still toxic once cut and dried. 
Hopefully there will be something about that in the research papers my
vet is trying to obtain.  Even Cornell did not know this answer.  If I
find out, I will post it here.    Hopefully, though, it wouldn't bother them
in hay since they probably don't get the quantity hay as they would the
green stuff if they were turned out (mine ate non-stop all day when they
were out on the field).  


Kathy

    My vet just sent me documentation on research done on this.  To
    sum up what it says, DO NOT FEED IT TO HORSES.  When grown on clay
    type soil it overpowers everything else in the field.  It is most
    poisonous while blooming.  By the time horses show the symptoms,
    it is usually too late to save them.
    
    It is also poisonous in hay form.

    UPDATE:
    
    My colt did survive, tho it was questionable for quite some time.  He
    hasn't coliced since last fall, so we're hoping all is now well with
    him.
    
    As many of you may have seen in the Peddlar, my vet, Dr. Steve Purdy,
    published an article in the may issue warning of the hazards of alsike
    clover.  
    
    In addition to writing articles and doing seminars on Alsike Clover,
    Dr. Purdy has been extremely supportive of trying to get companies to
    take it out of their mixes.  To date, we have gotten Blue Seal, Agway
    and Agriturf to take alsike clover out of their mixes.  Agway does
    still sell products, not intended for consumption by horses, (they took
    it out of the products that are intended for horses) that contain the 
    alsike, but are currently printing warning labels saying it is not 
    intended for use in horses - that it is poisonous to them.
    
    Additionally, Cornell University published a newsletter (which I am
    still trying to get a copy of) saying never to use alsike.  
    
    Through all our various discussions with people we are slowly hearing
    of cases where horses got sick, died, and the owners never new what had
    poisoned them.  Many of which could have been alsike as the owners
    had reseeded but didn't remember with what.
	
    My own personal case is still being worked - the company from which I
    purchased the seed is fighting it all the way.  We expect to go to
    trial this fall (which I'm sure they'll find another way to delay).
    
    Anyone know of any other major seed companies we can approach about
    removing it from their mixes??  We have sufficient
    documentation/research that most companies we approach do listen and
    believe it.
    
    Kathy
    
    

    
    I would contact Pioneer Hi-bred International at Johnston Iowa.
    
    And O's Gold.
    
    Another place I would contact is the Cooperative Extension Service at
    all the major land grant universities -- like Illinois, Iowa, Colorado,
    Minnesota, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri -- to have them put out 
    a blitz.

    This case was heard Monday in Superior Court.  3/4 the way thru the
    trial, the judge called a huddle with all the lawyers and strongly
    urged the seed company to settle prior to it becoming the juries
    decision (he even told him how much) because it was clear I would win.  
    
    The seed company rep approached me after to inform me that they had
    removed the alsike clover from their mixtures intended to be used by
    horses, and put a warning label on the bag of the mixtures intended to
    be used by dairies.
    
    To date, four companies have now either removed this product from the
    market and/or labelled products containing it.
    
    I cannot bring Missy or Smokey back, but let's hope that others will
    live as a result of their deaths.
    
    Kathy
    

   Kathy,

   I know it's still a sad time for you, but congratulations on winning
   your case. I know it was a long and difficult battle. Thank you for 
   caring enough to work so hard to make this world better for the rest 
   of us. There are many horses out there who will live long happy lives, 
   and many people who will not face the tragic loss of a beloved horse
   thanks to you. Most of them will never know who they can thank for 
   that. I want you to know that I think this is a great accomplishment 
   that you can be very proud of. 
   THANK YOU!

   Kiirja