Conference noted::equitation

    You could try a full-cheek snaffle bit with a fairly thin
    mouthpiece.  The cheek pieces will help with the turning
    because when you pull on one rein, it pushes the metal cheek
    piece on the opposite side against the horses mouth (thus pushing
    his head in the direction you want to go).
    
    You can also try a tom-thumb snaffle, which is a jointed
    snaffle mouthpiece with shanks on the sides (like a western
    curb). I assume your horse neck reins?  You might try asking
    him to make a turn by pulling on the left rein for example
    and pressing the right rein on his neck to make the association.
    
    Ride him in an enclosed area for a while when you are trying
    new bits.  Do a lot of circle work, and see if you can get
    him to respond to a fairly mild pressure on the bit.  You
    don't want it to turn into a tug-of-war (the horse always wins!).
    If you are asking him to halt from the walk, don't try a 
    steady pressure on the bit, but give little squeezes while
    you tell him whoa.  Praise him when he halts.  
    
    Tell us what he does exactly when you have a snaffle in his
    mouth and you ask for a halt or a turn or a slow-down aid.
    Also, what aids do you use for these things?

    
    Before you go to a thin mouth piece - try a full check snaffle with
    a twist - slow twist is less severe, a fast twist or cork screww
    is more severe. Is he putting his nose in the air? Are you using
    a martingale? If yes, standing or running? Martingale will help
    to keep him from avoiding the bit. Also, how are you leg aids? Quarter
    horses can swing their hips either way, so you want to be aware
    of were his are and try to keep them directly behind the shoulders.
    
    Lets us know 
    
    	Nancy
    

    If you are trying to get the horse on a very mild snaffle, bear
    in mind that the twist will be more severe than a thinner mouthpiece.
    (When I said thin mouth piece I was referring to a med thickness
    snaffle, not the fat ones and not the real skinny ones).
    
    In addition, a drop noseband, flash or figure-8 noseband will keep
    his mouth closed around the bit more than a caveson will, thereby
    giving you a bit more control (he can't open his mouth and avoid
    the pressure from the bit).
    
    Re: martingales, the running one will put more pressure on the reins
    (and bit), the standing one only attaches to the noseband, so it
    will only keep him from throwing his head beyond a certain point,
    but it will not interfere with the reins.
    
    You may want to work with an instructor/trainer that is familiar
    with these different devices so he/she can see what the horse responds
    to and which ones may cause more of a problem.
    
    Good luck.

    Thanks for the suggestions.  Let me give a little more info on what
    I am dealing with.  The snaffle that we started with was a full
    cheek with a slow twist (about a fat as my index finger).  I think
    I will re-try it, since my horse has settled down a bit, since I
    first bought him (the first day a rode him at home, we galloped
    and bucked to the barn!)
    
    He does toss his head at times, but not to a great extent.  The
    biggest problem I have is when I am riding at one end of the field
    and my husband is at the other end.  If I ask my horse to turn left,
    away from the other horse, we most likely will trot very quickly
    sideways to the right (if this makes sense).  His whole body is
    in a semi-circle trying to catch up with the other horse, no fun
    at all!
    
    In the ring, he is better, but not wonderful.  I try to use my legs
    as best I can to keep him going the correct way.
    
    As far as stopping in the ring he does fine, but if I lose him in
    the field, it may be a dead gallop until he gets where he wants
    to be.  Pretty spunky for a 10 year old.
    
    Is it time for an instructor?
    Jeanne

	I would think that if he runs at a dead gallop and bucks you should
	have a trainer who is experienced work some of that out. It's got
	to be less expensive than medical bills if he hurts you or hinself.

	My mare was a bucker at the canter when I first got her and she will
	do it occassionally still but not much. The woman who is training
	me just forced me to ride it out (in a ring,not in the open) till
	Taffy figured out it wasn't going to get me off her back or change
	my mind. At first I was scared and a bit nervous but now if she's
	in a bad mood (you know mares) I just sit it out and don't miss a
	beat of the canter. Riding it out has improved my skill and her
	attitude. I also carry a crop and will use it if necessary. I found
	that was the hardest part. I always felt guilty hitting her till
	she reared on me one day. I whacked her good on the top of the poll
	and she's never done it again. Your guy might need a bit of that.

	Good luck, liesl

    The place where I board my horse has a 18 year old quarter horse.
    She was trained to be a barrel racer.  This horse did not understand
    any speed except gallop.  Her owners never rode her but they did
    let two different people work with her.  
    
    The first person could not make her stop galloping so she kept
    changing bits.  She went from full check snaffle to single twisted
    to very skinny double twisted.  No mater how sever the bit the horse
    would not slow down.
    
    The second person removed the bit from the horses mouth.  She used
    a training bridel, and she only worked the horse in the ring.  It
    took this women 2 months to calm the horse down and to make the
    horse trot.  After the horse calmed down then she brought it out
    to ride in the pasture.  It was harder to keep the horse calm in
    the pasture but she finily got it to obey.  Now that the horse
    was calm she went back to a very thick snaffle.  You would not
    beleive what happened the horse would not trot all that she would
    do is gallop.  The women decided that this horses mouth was so
    sensitive from all of it earlier training that whenever a bit
    is in its mouth it is in so much pain that all it wants to do is
    run.
    
    Mary Ann
    
    

    You should start working with a trainer/instructor, since the more
    the horse gets away with, the harder it will be to correct him.
    
     You may wish to try a hackamore of sometype until the horse learns
    to listen to your leg and voice aids, then you can go back to
    introducing a bit.   In addition, this may give his mouth a chance
    to become more sensitive so when you put a bit back in later on,
    he will listen to it better.
    
    There are bits that have copper and metal rollers
    which make up the mouthpiece (it is a jointed snaffle, but instead
    of the smooth fat bars, these small rollers (maybe 4 to a side)
    make up the mouthpiece.  It serves 2 purposes, one is that the copper
    makes the horse mouth the bit more and loosen up the poll, and two
    is that he can't grab the bit in his teeth and run, because the
    rollers keep him from getting a hold on it.
    

    With ex-western horses, I use a jointed pelham to start with, and
    eventually transition to a snaffle of some kind.  A well trained
    western horse just doesn't know how to react when first dealing
    with the constant contact typical of English riders.  A lot of 
    times it's like riding a very green horse (one without turn signals).
    
    It's hard to do when your horse is misbehaving, but try lightening
    up on the rein contact (maybe a little judicious neck reining) and
    lots of leg/crop on the side he likes to drift towards.  
    
    You're probably also going to find that pulling his head in the
    direction you want to go isn't terribly effective.  Some horses
    act like they are part snake with the way they move.  About the
    only defense you have with these critters lies in motivating them
    to go forward (leg/crop/spurs and/or voice).  Until they are
    moving forward you are in a precarious and in some cases dangerous
    position.
    
    RE: .5 (I think)
    Rearing is a very dangerous habit, and should not be dealt with
    by a novice.  But no matter who is retraining the critter, whacking
    the horse over the poll with a crop is not an appropriate punishment.
    If you are lucky, the only side effect of a blow to the poll, is
    a nasty headache for the horse. I've trained/retrained a lot of
    horses (some of them very nasty) and I've never used this "technique",
    nor have I seen it used by a reputable trainer (english or western).
    
   

	I may have reacted a little more harshly than someone who doesn't
	have a close friend that has a silicone checkbone from a rearing
	accident. However, Taffy seems not to have been harmed and she has
	never reared since then. My crop is a short flexible one so I don't
	beleive there was any serious harm done. I may have been seriously
	injured and felt the response was a appropriate. I would not say
	that anyone take my advice on this. I'm no expert and may have just
	been lucky. liesl

    
    I've heard a couple of people mention that they've taken water balloons
    with them and if the horse attemped to rear, or did rear, they broke
    the balloon over the poll area (not to make the noise, but to have
    the water splash down the face).  They did say that it worked, but
    I wonder about the side affects: was the horse afraid of having
    his face washed or sponged after that or afraid of having bug spray
    applied to the poll area?

    In defense of the rider who belted her rearing horse: this is
    a western trick used frequently on ranches, where a quick training
    job is the goal.  The idea is not to damage the animal, but to
    startle it; after a couple times of rearing and banging itself,
    it starts to get the idea that its rearing is causing it to rise
    into an obstacle.  The connection between rearing and banged 
    head is almost indelible.  Obviously, it's not the most humane
    way to get a message across, but it's effective. (Believe it or
    not, some use the flat side of a 2x4, since it's less likely to
    cause damage - no sharp edges.)

    A horse dealer in my area told me he killed a horse by hitting it
    over the poll with a baseball bat!  His attitude was that if the
    horse couldn't be broken of rearing, then it didn't matter if he
    killed it!  An attitude I do not agree with.  I was very shocked
    when I heard his story.  I can see whacking a horse with a flexible
    crop, but not something like a 2x4 or baseball bat.
    
    Jeanne

    I realize getting after a horse for rearing can seem severe and
    some methods stated can be interpretted as barbaric...
    
    ask Malcolm Baldridge how much a horse should be allowed to rear.
    

    There are different ways of counteracting this problem & using a
    2x4 is not one of them. This person could be charged with animal
    abuse, etc. . How would he like to be chased around by a 2x4. :^)
    He does have a brain or does he sit on it??
    
                                                          Steve
    

    re .11
     As I read the note, it indicates that the use of the 2x4 is to
    cause the horse the bang its head against it when rearing. It did
    not say " hit the horse with a 2x4 ". The note also said that it
    may be a bit crude, but effective. 
    
    I have read in some books that it is effective to let the horse
    hurt itself when doing something undesireable. That way it learns
    that when it does something it hurts and does not associate the
    hurt with the trainer. One case in point is the trick of keeping
    a sharp pin in your hand when leading a horse that nips. When it
    attempts to nip it pricks itself in the mouth and soon gives up
    that particular behavior.
    

    
    In some cases I agree that there are older and somewhat effective
    methods in breaking bad habits of an animal, but I don't condone
    this particular method. Taking a 2x4 to an animals head just doesn't
    seem to be justified. A friend of mine was reared on while riding
    one day and suffered a severe concussion (sp), the trainer got on
    the horse, the horse reared and the trainer took a 2x4 and nailed
    him.  The horse didn't live.  The poll is the most sensitive part
    of the horse and cannot withstand much force, that is probably why
    a horse would learn from this method, however I'm not sure what
    problem your curing, or now creating. In any situtation, if you
    have a problem like this and aren't really sure how to tackle it,
    get assistance from a respected professional who you feel you can
    trust in handling the situation.
    
    
                                    

    Using the crude but effective argument is how children get burned
    with scalding water as a lesson not to reach for the pot.  It can
    be effective but will get you sent to jail just as using a 2x4 on
    an animals head should.  I for one don't want to ride a horse that
    doesn't trust the rider because he was hit/ran into a 2x4.  Don't
    think for a minute that they are so stupid that they don't know
    where that 2x4 came from.
    
    Bob
    

    
    I don't know what type of bit this is, but was absolutely
    horrified when I saw it. Descrip:  Bike Chain, with spikes in
    between every other section.  The person that is using this 
    bit (provided by the owner of the pony) is inexperienced. I
    thought the owner to be smarter than to ever have something
    like this in her barn. I don't feel that it's my place to  say
    anything, but if I'm around and I see this thing go into that
    pony's mouth, I'll die.  The pony is a registered morgan, 6 years
    old, gelded 6 mos ago, very hot, professionally trained to 
    ride and drive, has been shown by youngsters saddleseat, so I 
    believe that with the proper rider he would never need such a 
    bit.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how they would handle
    this situation?
    
    

    Re -.1
    
    Try contacting your local office of the ASPCA or similar animal
    protection agency. Depending in what state this is happening the
    legal and regulatory situation is different, so help from those
    experienced in dealing with cruelty to animals is needed. Massachusetts
    has regulation at both the local town (Animal Officer) and state level.

    Re -.18
    
    This bit is called a "Mule Bit" and is used by some professional
    trainers in Arab/Morgan/Saddlebred circles as the last resort after
    a severe twisted snaffle.  My personal opinion is that if you have
    to resort to this type of bit, the horse is probably not suited
    for what you are trying to do with it, but I'm probably in the minority
    of opinion as far as professionals are concerned.  In any case I
    would never suggest that an inexperienced rider use one!
    
    Just my $.02
    
    Bob
    

    re -.20
    No Bob, You're not in the minority.  If you need that kind of bit
    to control a horse, you're setting yourself (or your student)
    up to get hurt.  I won't have that kind of bit in my barn. And I
    won't deal with another trainer who uses them. I'd probably get irate 
    and say something to the owner/trainer involved (in private - not in 
    front of the client).
    
    The latest and greatest gimic bits around the Midwest circuits seem
    to be a gag bit with a very narrow twisted wire mouthpiece (used
    in place of a snaffle on a double bridle) for the saddleseat crowd,
    and a springsteen snaffle for the dressage/eventing crowd. I don't
    know how to begin to describe the Springsteen.
    

    RE: The discussion on hitting a horse over the head.
    
    Last weekend I was at a 4H show looking for a "dead broke" kids
    horse.  There was a horse there that looked very familiar, so I
    went over to say hi.  I wish I hadn't.
    
    The horse was the daughter of my Morgan mare. She used to be beautiful
    but a little arrogant (just like Mom).  She's still beautiful -
    standing still.  Seems that now when she moves, she's nottoo much
    aware of where the right side of her body is. She also can't see
    (or at least doesn't recognise) anything out of her right eye.
    
    Seems that Breezy and her inexperienced, but well-meaning owner
    had a discussion about rearing. On the advise of a "trainer" the
    owner applied a short, more or less flexible crop, between her ears
    the next time she reared.  The next day the horse was in surgery
    at Ohio State Vet Hospital to try to relieve the pressure from an
    abcess near Breezy's brain.  This incident happened two YEARS ago.
    
    The owner of Breezy is not a cruel person.  She just didn't know
    any better. She sees the result of her inexperience every single
    day. I don't think I could carry around that kind of guilt. Neither
    ignorance, not inexperience are excuses that will take away the
    pain of an accident like this. Please be careful and investigate
    the potential consequences of your training methods.
    
    A side note - Breezy is not in much pain.  She just needs an awful
    lot of special care.

	I'm currently riding English in the ring with a fat bar eggbut snaffle.
	On the trail I'm a mishmash combo of western/english styles and am
	using a tom thumb. I need more emergency stopping power on the trial
	than my ring bit gives but the tom thumb is causing Taffy to sometimes
	throw her head and otherwise avoid the bit. I suspect it's partly me
	not knowing how to properly use the bit so I'd like to get something
	better suited to both of us. I've read this is a tough bit to use well.

	What do other english riders use on trail? I've considered a regular
	curb but whenever things get tense (like the day an ambulence passed
	me) I feel more comfortable back with my two hand english style. The
	curb does not seem suited to that. I'll be riding competative trail
	(with both me and Taffy being novices) this summer and want something
	we are both comfortable with. I've even considered a double briddle
	but that seems overkill. Any suggestions? Liesl

    
    
    What I usually do with this problem is go to some kind of single
    or double twisted wire bit.  I have a gray gelding that works fine
    in the ring with a regular eggbutt snaffle, but gets too strong
    when ridden outside for me to feel safe.  I finnally had to go to
    a copper double twisted wire to get any respect.  This come with
    a variety of wire sizes so you should be able to find something
    that works well without being too severe.  You could also try a
    pelham with a mullen or bar mouth and a 5" to 7" shank.  The direct
    rein is there if you need it for steering and the curb rein for
    stopping.  This also eliminates all the extra hardware that goes
    with a double bridle and some of the problems that go with fitting
    one correctly.  
    
    Pat 

    	RE: .22..
    
    	You may want to try a dropped noseband with your eggbutt.. 
    Lots of
    	trail riders I know use 'em - but you may want to check to see
    	if they are allowed in competition - I do not compete - so would
    	be no help to you there...

    	RE:.23
    
    	If you doing any kind of milage (25 or <) and have a horse that
    	is excitable your mouth may be in bad shape at the end of the
    	ride using a twisted wire type bit.  As I said - IF the cridder
    	is excitable.  Your safety matters.
    
    	I find that most of the veteran trail riders I know use very mild or
    	no bit at all... 

	I imagine that on a back country ride I wouldn't have as much trouble
	with spooking as I do when riding along the road where all sorts of
	things happen unexpectedly. I am very hesitant to try any twisted
	wire as Taffy had a tougue injury when I got her. She was only a little
	over 2 years old when I got her and already she'd been hurt. I have
	considered a bosal or hackamore but again, my lack of experience with
	these me hesitant to try. My English trainer is not much on trail riding
	and disapproves of hackamores in general so she's not one I can ask.

	The other thing is, Taffy is not a bad horse she doesn't have the
	urge to hurt me (i'm pretty sure) I just need the assurance that she
	won't run off with me if there is an incident. I grew up riding along
	roads and know there is always something strange that can make even
	a good horse feel the fear of god. That's why I'd like something that's
	only harsh when I need it in an emergency but for most of the ride 
	will not cause any discomfort or punishment unintensionally.

	I also realise the ultimate solution is in my hands and how I control
	them. Easy to say, harder to do. liesl

    Liesl, I use a very short shanked, fleece (not leather over metal),
    hackamore on any horse of mine that I ride on trails. I also use
    them on pace events and basically anytime I am not in the ring and
    not jumping. When riding in the ring I use an eggbutt snaffle.
    
    I have found that those people that are against hackamores have
    either never used them, don't know how they work, have only seen
    poorly adjusted ones which ride too low on the cartilage of the
    nose or have seen some being terribly misused. 
    
    Remember that lots of people have different opinions and ideas and
    that no one person's suggestions/solutions will work for *all* horses!
    
    Good luck and happy trails,
    
    Linda
    

	Linda, do you have any recomendations on books that describe how
	to use and fit a hackamore? I'd like to learn more. liesl

    Liesl,,I second Linda's comments about the hackamore. Especially
    the comment about not setting it too low. That's the most common
    mistake that people make.I'm talking about the mechanical hack-
    amores that have normal reins and cheekpieces. The bosal is really
    a hackamore also known as a bosal, but these are a different
    subject.
    	The part of the mechanical hackamore that does the job,is the
    chain under the chin. When you pull back on the reins,the chain
    should make contact with the chin groove under the jaw. If the
    hack is positioned too low,it puts pressure on the cartilage,
    causing pain,and cutting of the horse's breathing,,this can
    cause the animal to panic. Adjust it so that the noseband is
    well up on solid bone,and the chain is in the chin groove when
    you take up the slack. Also,after you fit it on your horse,and
    before you actually mount,stand in front of him,hold both reins
    in your hand,and push toward him to simulate pulling back on the
    reins. This is to give him the feel of the new apparatus,and to
    check that the chain is in the right place. Do this until he backs
    a few steps,and then you can probably mount up.
    	Be aware that this gear can be extremely mild,as well as quite
    severe if you really jerk back,so keep light hands unless you
    need the extra force.
    
    	Good luck,
    		George
    

    Liesl, if you'd like to come over and talk to my daughter, she can
    help you with the hackamore.  One of the problems we found with
    the tom thumb is that it sometimes pinches the side of the mouth,
    and any mid-jointed bit can put pressure on the roof of the mouth
    if pulled hard.  A hackamore or a side-pull work very weel on trail
    and they allow your horse to graze at break time (or get a drink
    easily.)

    Liesl, I know what you are experiencing as I went through it myself
    years ago with my present horse.  His moth had been abused and no
    bit I tried would work so I opted for the hackamore (fleece/leather
    type).
    
    Cheyenne is a *very* head strong pony and I had had some trouble
    stopping him until I used the hackamore.  As others have said it
    is mild until you really need it.
    
    I have had a need to use a bit recently and got a very short shank
    Monty Forman bit.  It can be used with double reins or single (I
    use single).  This is a bit that Cheyenne respects and if you have
    light hands will not interfere.
    
    All in all I like the freedom of the hackamore the best.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Roslyn

	I went out to buy a hackamore and was going to take John's offer
	of his daughter's help but I when I looked there were no fleese
	short shank hackamore's in the tack shops. Guess I'll have to order
	from a catalog. You wouldn't believe the one I saw in the tack
	shop that caters to trail riders. It was $45 and had a chain nose
	band (covered with a thick clear vinyl) and the shanks were longer
	than my hand. It looked positively evil. I got the feeling it could
	stop a train...

	Anyway, my trainer has me working on learning to stop correctly
	by releasing as soon as Taffy responds. We were starting to get
	a tug-of-war mentality. Guess who was losing? I found I was confusing
	her with my signals by not releasing soon enough. So what she did
	was start pulling. I still get a bit of fear when we start going
	faster that I am out of control, it makes releasing psychologically
	difficult. It seems 90% of what's wrong with my horse turns out to
	be ME!! liesl

    I just recently had my 4 yr old Arab Gelding saddlebroken.  Before	he
    graduated, the trainer helped me fit him with tack.  I had purchased
    a D-ring coppermouthed bit with rollers as she had said his mouth
    was very good.  When we tried him out with the bit, we found that
    he would not set his head (where before he would) and was very
    resistant to the bit.
    
    The trainer uses a bit available through Victor Supreme, called
    a Don Hansen, Dr. Bristol (sp?) bit.  There are several types
    available, but I haven't seen the catalog.  Anyway, the mouth piece
    of this bit is three pieces, which supposedly puts less pressure
    on the bars of the mouth.  The trainer swears by these bits and
    after seeing the difference in the horse, I am too!
    
    Bitting a horse correctly can determine whether or not your rides
    will be safe and enjoyable.  I firmly believe in getting an expert's
    advice.
    
    Does anyone else use the Dr. Bristol bits?
    
    

    I have used several different Dr. Bristols with varying degree of
    success.  Mostly good.
    
    The type of mouth piece itself is useful for shallow mouthed horses
    in that when contact with the mouth is maintained, the bit doesn't
    poke into the roof of the mouth.  (I have had this problem with
    several horses.)  
    
    One caution.  Dr. Bristols can come in many degrees of severity.
    Especially many listed in the Victor Supreme catalog.  I happen
    to have one for very special occasions and should only be used for
    a short period of time--very nasty.  But effective for the right
    horse and rider at the right time.  
    
    Make sure your horse is "setting" its head because he is being ridden
    correctly rather than him "setting" his head because its being forced
    into position by a severe bit.  
    
    Smooth Dr. Bristols are allowed in Dressage competitions.

    Hi, Jeanne.  I suggest that you longe your horse a lot before you get 
    too frustrated, and he gets too upset...and make sure that you do it in
    the ring...that will help him get used to doing ring work.  Longing is 
    such a great activity.  The animal gets good quality exercise and is
    in complete balance without the restrictions of having a human on his 
    back.  
    
    Once your horse is good a longing, then start him on a harsh bit, just
    to get his attention, and then gradually, as he improves in his
    manners, get a less and less severe bit for him...and before you know 
    it, you will have a snaffle in his mouth, and he won't know the
    difference.  It's all in the conditioning...  And make sure that you 
    reinforce whatever you are doing with voice commands.  That way you 
    can ride without kicking, pulling, tugging, etc. It makes it so much
    nicer for you and him!  My Beowolf is completely on voice command, and
    he is only 3!  But then, Beowolf is SOOO special!  (just kidding)
    Good luck!  I hope all goes well with your new animal!  
    
    Happy New Years!  Laurel.