Conference noted::equitation

    
    
    
    		linda, glad to hear that things are going fine, please
    keep us posted on how your horse is doing.  and thanks for the 
    info on the clinic.  It is a good clinic, and you're right about
    how many people call and decide not to take the animal in.
    	i have run into alot of colic out west, luckily we have always
    gotten our horses out of danger, and the colo. clinic was only 30 min.s
    away, anyway, what scares people is investing the possible 8 grand for
    the operation.  bare in mind too that the kids horse might have
    cost 400.00 is now going to cost them 5000.00 for the clinic, i
    guess they just need to be reminded that the horse has a slim chance
    of making it.
    			and i guess too people might think that the
    operation might be unneccessary, and decide to wait for another
    opinion. if it were my horse and i felt it has colic that horse
    would be up to the clinic in no time.
    
    		p.s. i had a freind that lost a horse, they took her
    up to the clinic and never did find out what was wrong with the
    horse.
    
    		wen.
    

    Linda, my heart jumped when I read the title of your note!  I lost
    a mare last July to complications following colic surgery.  My regular
    vet was out of town; we had a terrible time getting his replacement
    to come out to the farm, because he had a waiting room full of pets.
    We went to his office to pick up banamine -- which I now keep on
    hand -- but it didn't work.  My mare went into shock.
    
    All of this started around 7 p.m.  My husband walked the mare until
    I came home with the banamine; she seemed to improve from the walking.
    The vet said to give her a second injection after an hour if the
    first didn't clear up the problem.  It was about 9:30 p.m. until
    he arrived.  He did all the same tests your stallion had.  Finally,
    he called the Marion Dupont Scott center in Leesburg, VA.  It was
    3 a.m. until we got there, a 2-hour trip.
    
    We, also, watched the surgery.  The mare survived, but died 15 minutes
    after waking up, from the effect of the toxins in the blood after
    the gut was untwisted.  The surgeon elected to not cut off the affected
    part, but rather to untwist it.  I've played "what if" for months.
    
    My mare was a real fighter, even in shock she didn't give up.  That's
    why the surgeon decided to go ahead with the operation.  There are
    a lot of bad memories, though.
    
    The long and the short of this is just what you said:  Time is
    absolutely critical.  The surgeon told me later that the mare's
    gut had been twisted for about 2 hours.  Any longer and he could
    not have untwisted it (3 hours without oxygen would have killed
    that part of the organ.).  Of course, that makes me wonder what
    had been happening to her at home.  (By the way, my regular vet
    said later that he ALWAYS advises clients to truck their horses
    to a clinic if the Banamine hasn't worked in 20 minutes; a second
    injection doesn't do any good.)
    
    I'm very glad your stallion is OK.  My mare's death was very hard
    to take and still makes thinking about her painful, even now.
    The necropsy did not show anything that would have caused the colic.
    
    By the way, the surgery and necropsy cost about $2,500.00.  The
    very worst part about the money is that a nurse or technician came
    OUT OF THE SURGERY and brought us the papers to sign and asked us
    for a check for half!!!!!!!  That was the most unfeeling, disgusting
    thing.
    
    Merrie 

    Linda,
    
    Hope your stallion pulls through okay.......I can't think of anything
    worse to have to go through.
    
    Has anyone talked to their vet about the new colic vaccine (did
    your horse get it, Linda?)  I know a lot of people that did get
    it and their horses had quite severe reactions to it.  Apparently,
    with this vaccine, should your horse colic and have to go for surgery,
    their survival chances are much greater as it gives the horse some
    immunization (is this the right word?) against the toxins that
    accompany the colic surgery.
    
    My vet didn't really recommend it and so, I didn't get it....did
    they mention anything about it at Rochester?  Anyone out there have
    any experience with it?
    
    
    Jeannie

    
    
    Merrie, sorry to hear that things didn't turn out well with your
    horse.  It was difficult enough to go through the operation with-
    out that ending.  
    
    As for the colic vacine mentioned in the last note, my vet did
    dicuss that as well as colic surgury and did mention that some
    horses did have reactions to it.  That was six months ago and I
    am going to ask her if the vacine has been improved.  If so, all
    my horses are going to get it.
    
    I've been working weird hours so that I can drive 2 hours to the
    clinic to see Regal while the vets and surgeons are there.  It's
    taking a lot out of me but I'm finding it's very helpful to the
    vets.  Regal was immediately hungry following surgery and re-
    covered quite quickly.  They warned me that he would lose a lot
    of weight but so far, because he's eating well, he's only lost
    a little.  He's very energetic, trying to knock everyone down
    and escape through the door.  They've been putting fluids into
    him because he's not drinking water.  I've been talking to people
    that work around there and discovered from them that the water
    smells like suphur and tastes awful.  I also discovered that
    he was in fact thirsty.  I would lap handfuls of water out of
    my hands but would not touch the bucket of water.  I told the
    vets that I will try bringing up my own water as well as his
    bucket.  This may be the answer to the no drinking problem.
    
    So REgal is faring well but I still have a lot of questions about
    complications.  Has anyone else out there had colic surgery
    performed on a horse?  Were there any complications once the
    horse arrived home?
    
    Also, I'd like to mention something about worming.  I've been
    worming regularly and they told me he's full of worms.  The past
    year my babies were coming down with colic every couple of months.
    I've been using Zimecterin paste wormer for two years which vets
    highly recommended.  Then my vet informed me that they'd discovered
    Zimecterin DOES NOT KILL ascarids in babies.  I guess adult horses
    do not have these worms, therefore, it was only the babies having
    problems.  The clinic has given me a worming schedule that includes
    six different wormers.  I thought I might mention this in case
    anyone else is using Zimecterin all the time.  I've had nothing
    but problems since I've been using it.
    
    Let me know if anyone else has had trouble with this wormer.
    
    Linda
    
    

    
    
    		re.4
    
    		can you post the worming schedule here??? it might
    be of interest to us.  i heard that for past wormers you alternate
    between the ...zole, ....zine,.... etc. (the name ending with those
    endinds)[hope this makes sense]
    anway i havent had any problems, then again i dont trust what i'm
    putting down my horses mouth as far as wormers.
    my horse had that shot (worming) but i think she came down with
    colic , like alot of others.  anyway i still believe in the old
    fashioned tube worming.  i think thats something i'll start doing
    twice a year and then just paste in between.  but if the tube does
    it all why should i waste money on paste every 5-9 weeks??
    or should you just tube after the first killing frost and paste
    til the following fall.
    
    
    		any comments on worming in general ????
    oops. maybe this all should be moved to a new note??????
    
    			wendy o'
    

    We had a mare go through coli surgery about three years ago...Tufts
    in Grafton.  No sure I would do it again.  When she came home she
    was very depressed and wasn't allowed out at all.  They were afraid
    that she would rip something open.  As the vet said, it you could
    explain to them not to run around then everything would be okay.
     We finally had to tranquilizer in her feed and put her in a small
    paddock.  I thought she was giving up prior to that.  
    
    It took her a good year to come around and presently she is back
    on the show circuit.  I read statistics once 
                                               about recovery rates
    and from what I remember is they make it the first 8 months things
    should go smoothly from there...I believe I counted the days.
    
    The reason I say I wouldn't do it again is basically for the horse's
    sake...they do go through a lot of pain both physically and mentally
    so I am not sure it is worth it.  However, Linda, I am happy that
    all is well; keep us posted and if there is anything that we can
    do, please let me know.  Robert is much better at detail than I
    am so if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
    
    GOOD LUCK
    

    RE.6
    After reading my note, I wasn't sure that folks would understand
    what I was saying.  The spelling and English is atrocious.  Please
    excuse the rush...
    

    I'm glad to hear that Regal has recovered without difficulty. Our
    horse colic last year at a show. He had a slight relaps(sp) about
    three weeks ago. Our trainer was right there & gave him an injection
    & called us & the vet. It can happen at any time & place. You'll
    have to have Regal re-vetted & our insurance company (Markel) had
    us sign some forms with different stipulations about colic reaccuring,
    etc. . Have your insurance policy checked out.
    
                                    Steve-out-riding-his-Arab
    

    
    Thanks for all the concern.  Regal is doing well and has been 
    very bouncy since the surgery.  He may be released on Monday.
    Thanks for the info on your mare, Kathy.  Regal is basically
    calm and level-headed.  He's been very bouncy since the
    surgery but I believe that is because he's stabled with other
    horses and isn't used to being stalled.  He's going a little
    stir-crazy.
    
    At home, he has his own stable which he can go in and out of
    as he pleases.  The surgeon told me he can be either stalled
    or put in a small enclosure for thirty days so that he can't
    do any running around.  He's got a bit of space so I'm going
    to section off a small area around his barn.  He usually
    doesn't do much running around since he's turned out all day
    so I hope he'll settle back into his normal routine quickly.
    
    I've decided to have him trucked home by a professional ship-
    ping company because my truck isn't that reliable and I don't
    want to take a chance of breaking down.  I called Blue Chip
    and a couple of other companies but they are booked solid
    through Thursday.  I called Briggs and they can do it on
    Monday.  Is anyone familiar with this company?  Blue Chip and
    the others wanted to charge me $185 or up.  Briggs said they
    can do it for $85.00.  Why the big difference in price?
    
    Linda
    
    

    Linda,
    
    My name is Lori, and I live in Colorado Springs.  I just started
    working for Digital, and I saw your notes on your horse having colic
    surgery.  Over the years, surgery has been drastically upgraded,
    but it is still a great risk to have horses operated on.  We bought
    an American Saddlebred stallion about three years ago, and recently
    had to have him operated on for colic.  We found after the surgery
    was begun, that he had been previously operated on.  We were not
    informed of this when we bought the horse.  It seems that if you
    catch the colic in time that the horses have a very good chance
    of pulling through, but if they start to get shocky, the chances
    are not so good.  As it turned out, our stallion did not live through
    the second surgery.  It seemed that his colic case was chronic,
    and the recurring colic was located in the same place that the previous
    case was located and his intestine was paralized in that spot. 
    I have found, from talking with numerous other people who have had
    colic surgery performed on their horses, that if a horse must have
    surgery a second time, its chances of making it are greatly reduced.
    Some friends of mine have a Saddlebred mare who had surgery about
    2 years ago, and she has had no problems what so ever, but she is
    watched very carefully, and she is insured.  She is back on the
    show circuit, though and doing very well.
    
    Worms seem to be a big factor in colic.  Also, Zimecterine is a
    very good wormer, but our vet said that the worms develop an immunity
    to it, and we should change pastes like every year.  Also, I highly
    recommend having your horse tubed every six months, for safety.
    
    If you ever want to sell your horse, make sure you talk to an equine
    lawyer, to prevent a lawsuit if the horse colics again and has to
    have surgery.  My parents are in the process of sueing the people
    who sold us the stallion, as he was misrepresented as we paid a
    great deal of money for him, and he wasnt insured.  I dont know
    how it will turn out, but it's better to be safe than sorry.
    
    Lori
    

             <<< DELNI::WORK$01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EQUITATION.NOTE;1 >>>
                      -< - Equitation Notes Conference - >-
================================================================================
Note 488.0                  colic surgery-enteroliths                    1 reply
MDVAX1::HILDEBRAND                                   62 lines  21-JAN-1988 18:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am new to Digital and have been reading the notes conference.
    I introduced myself and my three critters in note 1.57.
    
    I thought I would add my little knowledge on colic surgery.
    I have a mare who is now 16 and coliced when she was 12.
    She had never coliced before in her life that anyone knew of.
    My normal vet was out of town so the vet-on-call came to the
    farm that night.  I have a policy that says call the vet
    if the horse is colicy.  Both my vet and I would rather have
    a barn call fee for nothing than waiting to long.  The vet
    was fresh, four months out of barn school and had done
    a residency at a wonderful colic clinic in northern Illinois.
    Since the mare, Penny, didn't act like she was in that much
    pain, he did the usual...mineral oil, palpitation, and 
    tranquilizer.  After several hours and another trip out to
    the farm, the decision was made to take her to the vet school
    at University of Missouri, a mere two hour trip at 2:00am
    with a colicy horse.  Once there, the surgeons decided she
    was definitely a surgical case and did not show any signs
    of deterioration.  Her gum refill time and capillary response
    was good and the abdominal fluid also looked good.  I had
    to lead the mare into surgery and could not stay with her.
    That is one of the most grueling three hour time periods
    I ever spent.  It turned out the mare had two enteroliths
    which are like large gallstones that form in the horse's
    large intestine around some foreign object.  In her case,
    it was the heads of two horse show nails that she had 
    probably ingested as a weanling or yearling.  It take
    at least ten years for the stones to completely form.  Hers
    were the size of large softballs.  The mare spent three
    hours in recovery with the surgeon and I rubbing her mucles
    every half hour so they wouldn't die from her being down
    for six hours total.  We got her up and the surgeon kept
    saying her prognosis was very guarded.  However, once
    Penny's bandage was on, she proceeded to do a prancy,
    slow show trot to her ICU stall and then started looking for
    food.  The surgeon upgraded her condition at that point
    in time.  Ten days later I got the best Thanksgiving anyone
    could have when I took my mare home, 150 pounds lighter
    and really weak, but quite alive.  The total cost of the
    surgery was $1300.
    
    Convelescence for Penny was tougher than surgery and because
    of an infected suture tract, she had to go back to surgery
    three months later to have it removed.  She entered the
    show ring four months after that surgery and won her
    three-gaited show pleasure class.  Penny is a wonderful
    American Saddlebred mare with more heart than I will probably
    ever find in any other horse.  She has her faults, like she
    is a little silly, but she has taught me almost everything I
    know and has taken me to many blue ribbons.
    
    The moral of this very long note is don't wait and don't 
    hesitate to have colic surgery.  If you are crazy about
    your animal, at least if the horse doesn't make it, you
    will know you have done everything you can.  I wouldn't
    have those two large brown eyes and those loud nickers
    for carrots if I hadn't take the chance and trusted my
    very new vet.
    
    Paula

================================================================================
Note 488.1                  colic surgery-enteroliths                     1 of 1
OFFPLS::PRESTIDGE                                     7 lines  28-JAN-1988 11:53
                             -< Causes of Colic? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Please could someone fill in the causes of Colic?  
    I've heard so many things that it seems almost
    anything could cause it (i.e. feeding too soon after exercise,
    changing feed schedule/amounts, etc.)......
    
    -Sue
    

    Suffice it to say there is a lot of research going on, some
    well-funded by the George Morris Animal Foundation and some
    excellent work being done at the University of Georgia Equine
    Center, but there is no exact cause of colic and it varies from
    horse to horse.  Some people can exist for years putting horses
    a way hot and letting them eat to their hearts content and never
    have a problem.  With others it doesn't work that way.  Just like
    people, some horse's digestive systems are more sensitive than
    others and since a horse can't vomit when they have an upset
    stomach, they colic.  If you follow an excellent worming program
    to keep down the destruction and scarring of the intestines; if
    you always cool out your horse thoroughly before letting it get
    near food or water; if your horse never ingests a foreign object
    such as a nail or hard plastic; and if you are very lucky, you
    may not have colic problems.  Anything that is gas producing
    (excessively) can be listed as a cause of colic.  I guess
    may answer is use common sense and take the best care of your
    horse(s) that you can and hopefully, you won't have any problems.
    Good diet, exercise, and health care are the best prevention.

    RE. 13:
    
    So, what are the first symptoms of colic ??  And what are the odds
    that a horse will get colic.  For example, out of all of the 
    horses that are well cared for, what percent are likely to
    get colic ?? 50% ??  75%, 100% ??  
    
    - Concerned horse-owner-to-be (in a coupla years)
    

    The usual first symptoms are a horse doing something other than
    normal.  I know this sounds a bit far fetched, but the bottom line
    is they all act differently.  I can give you the most common ones
    but remember that some of these signs are exhibited by healthy horses
    which are not colicing.  You have to know your horse and what is
    normal when they feel OK.  The usual progression is as follows:
    
    Lack of interest in water or food (variance from normal)
    
    Excessive urination or trying to urinate (many horses try as soon
    as they get in the barn, again you need to know what normal is)
    
    Biting at their sides (in most cases this isn't normal behavior)
    
    Pawing (more than normal)
    
    Stretching (more than normal)
    
    Grunting or groaning (more than normal)
    
    Constantly lieing down and getting up (this usually is normal either)
    
    At this point things get progressively worse
    
    Excessive aggressiveness in the stall
    
    Thrashing
    
    Running wildly (if outside)
    
    Sweating profusely without working
    
    As you can see many of the early signs are things that some horses
    do normally.  We have one mare who immediately goes to the corner
    and hangs her head in depression when she is in the very early stages.
    
    Along with these symptoms, you should take Pulse, Temperature, and
    respiration (again you need to know what normal is for your horse)
    
    If you see the early signs, you will usually have time to ask for
    help from a knowlegeable friend before you need to call the vet.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob
    

    	I don't have any scientific facts at hand to back this up,but
    from my observations,it seems that horses that have constant access
    to clean water,and horses that are pastured every day have less
    trouble with colic. Three of ours run on forty acres every day,and
    two (a blind mare and her 20+year old pony friend) are fonfined
    to a stall and 40 X 16 foot run. All have plenty of fresh water
    all the time,and in ten years,we've had no colic whatever. I'm
    sure that the individuals' metabolism has something to do with it,
    and luck plays a part,but I guess we're doing something right too.
    
    	George
    

    Horses in the wild rarely have colic.  And parasites is their major
    cause.  But man has forced our schedules on our horses.  This once
    or twice a day feeding is not the way nature intended horses to
    be fed.  Grain is the major cause of colic in domesticated horsed.
    When we feed grain before hay, the small intestine receives the
    material from the stomach and begins the breaking down process.
    Large influxes of this grain being broke down by Trypsin and Pancreatic
    lipase can produce large amounts of gas.  The more grain the more
    gas is produced.  This can led to colic.  This is why hay should be
    fed first with fresh water available.
                                        
    Larry

    This is going to be an unusual request.  But I think these are unusual
    circumstances.  (I'm not trying to cause trouble--just tracking down
    possible contaminants, i.e., water source, feed, ...) 
    
    Have any of you in your experience and/or reading ever heard of
    a case where a particular barn having an unusually high incidence
    of colic?
    
    The reason I ask, a horse from a barn I am familiar with just
    died of colic.  No previous history of colic.
    
    Horse #2 died in December (apparent colic--liver failure). No previous
        history of colic or other illness
    Horse #3 colicked twice since June.  No previous history of colic
    Horse #4--colicked severely twice between June and November (he
        is no longer there).  Previously no history of colic.
    Horse #5--colicked twice between June and now.  No history of colic.
    Horse #6--doing poorly although fed well.
    Horse #7--acting colicky on several occasions, not severe.  No longer
        there and no longer having "attacks".  No history of colic.
    Horse #8--colicked twice in the past week.  No history of colic.

    2 horses who have left in the past two weeks are now acting like different
    horses--exceedingly full of energy (tremendous disposition changes).
 
    I think we can eliminate hay as a factor.  The hay has been coming
    from several different sources.
    
    Grain--same mix from same mill as several other farms.
    
    Water may be a source--we are checking for contaminants, heavy metals,
    protozoa...  Any other ideas?
    
    Bedding?
    Lead paint?  Asbestos?  Would these be possibilities?
    Heavy metals or large supplies of trace minerals in soils?  (We
    are checking out soil survey maps.)
    
    Any and all ideas would be helpful.
    
    Mary Jo

    Since colic is quite often associated with intestinal parasites that's
    where I would begin. What kind of worming program does this barn
    have? How effective is it? - fecal checks by a vet's lab should
    soon tell you. I don't know what the shelf life of worming medicine
    is, but it could be what they are using is ineffective. I recall
    seeing an article recently that phony drugs are showing up in the
    horse world now. 

I'd guess the high incidence of colic cases is due to worms or lack
of turnout and/or exercise.   What is the turnout arrangement at this
stable?  I agree w/ the previous reply about having fecal samples tested for 
worms.

-Melinda

    Worms:  The horses are on a 2 month worming rotation with ivermectin,
    equipar.  Fecals on 3 of the horses show almost NO presence of eggs.
    (I don't know about the others).
    
    Exercise:  Excellent turn out.  Horses are out from after breakfast
    until just before dinner.  Most are also ridden regularly (hunters,
    dressage types).
    
    I should add that all horses are on a strick vaccination schedule
    (these are mostly show horses)
    -- influenza and rhino biannually, yearly coggins tests, annual
    vee-eee-wee.

    Continuing re -.3
    
    Having eliminated the obvious causes of a high incidence of colic,
    you now have to consider the not so obvious.
    
    I assume the affected stable is in Colorado, since your node id
    represent the Customer Support Center in Colorado Springs. I remember
    reading about, but have never experienced a condition known as "Sand
    Colic". More common in drier climates of the West, horses turned
    out in paddocks with little or no grazing can ingest considerable
    amounts of dirt/sand etc:. Unlike some birds that need grit in their
    intestines to aid digestion, horses can colic over this material.
    
    Another causes can be rapid changes in temperature. When it goes from
    50 deg F to 10 deg F or the other way around, the incidence of colic
    goes up. In New England the temperature can change like this in twelve
    hours and it always keeps the vets busy. This is one reason why one
    shouldn't heat a stable in winter or air condition it in summer. 
    
    Lastly, some medication or immunizations can cause a horse to react
    with a colic. The one and only time (so far, touch wood) that my
    horse had a colic was on the day he had a rhino shot AND the
    temperature changed 40 deg F.
    
    If all the common causes have been ruled out, you have a case for
    the local vet school or Dept of Agriculture.

    Just reviewing this note, I would like to add my experience regarding
    colic surgery.  About three years ago my daughter's 7-year old quarter
    horse colicked severely, and we had the vet come ASAP.  He said to get
    the horse to Tufts Vet School, which we did immediately.  They x-rayed
    and found a soft-ball size enterolith which had formed over a period of
    years, then broken loose and jammed the small intestine.  We got the
    50-50 talk, and in this case after the surgery the horse didn't move
    his bowels and also developed a peritoneal infection, and had to be put
    down.  The cost was $2500, and after the fact I have said I would not
    go through it again - but really, I think facing a choice on another
    well-loved horse, I would do it again.
    The surgeon told me that she had a very difficult time getting to the
    enterolith, because of it's location up near the top of the abdominal
    wall.  She had to cut out a portion of intestine that had died and
    suture the rest back all around, in a very difficult location to work
    in, obscured by all the other innards.
    
    A warning sign in this case, if only we had noticed it and picked up on
    it before the fact, was the horse leaving somewhat smaller piles of
    manure than normal and in smaller "muffins" than usual for a day or two
    beforehand.  But if different people are doing the stalls on different
    days this is hard to notice.
    
    We also changed, as a result of a local seminar, our feeding schedule
    to three times per day, and incorporated a quarter-cup of vinegar once
    per day for each horse, which is supposed to prevent the formation of
    the calcified enteroliths, and break down any that might be there
    already.