Conference noted::bicycle

    I noticed a chafing problem yesterday and this morning I tried Desitin
    (baby rash ointment).  It will be interesting to see how it works.
    
    steve

    Nothing comes between me and my chamois.  Seriously.

    Real bike shorts come with a pad built in.  It's function is
    not so much to pad, but to present a soft smooth surface.
    Sometimes it's really chamois leather; most of the time it's
    polypropylene.  (either is OK)

    For some reason this year, lycra bike-style shorts have
    become fashionable.  Unless you get it in a bike store, it
    probably won't have any padding or liner.

    If you really insist on undies, the standard men's jockey shorts
    aren't too good; they have seams that intersect with the hem right
    where you want to sit.  If you can find something seamless it
    would probably be better.

    -Jeff Bell

    	Agree on the jockey shorts: you've really got to butcher a pair
    to get rid of the seams in critical areas.  The remaining assemblage
    of cloth doesn't support well cuz the elastic is gone. Might's well
    do without. 
    	I think wool, wool/acrylic, or acrylic shorts are more modest
    than lycra.  You mignt want to try one of them.  - Chris  
    
    ps. Recumbent riders don't have this problem.

    You can now find chamoisless lycra in US bike shops.  Descent has
    some, I don't know about the other vendors.
    
    Sorry, no undies, it's like fenders, handlebar bags, tennis shoes,
    little plastic things on your spokes -- just not cool.
    
    ed

>>    Nothing comes between me and my chamois.  Seriously.

  Same here. I also found that a thin chamois can fold and buch up. That's worse
than any seam. I like the new shorts that have a thin pad between the chamois
and the lycra, they help keep the pad from bunching. If I get a chafed and I
need to ride before it heals, I'll put some cream on the chamois in the chafed
area. Sometimes this helps sometimes it makes it worse. 

Tom

    This is probably the most blatantly defined statement of the virtual
    propensity for the obvious, but her goes; If the problem is THAT
    severe (if you're wearing padded shorts) you may want to investigate
    some experimentation with adjustments. Maybe a gel saddle. Touring
    is not cool on a racing saddle!
    
    I'll probably get beat up for this, but chamois s*cks! It's a pain
    to wash, a pain to treat, bunching's a problem and it has a tendency
    to wear quicker than synthetics (not to mention they're more
    expensive).
    
    My opinion through experience. They wear thin in spots, starting
    with a thin hole. It get bigger, and bigger, and bigger....
    I like easy of maintenance, ease of washing, cost and variety. I
    like the synthetics and they're getting better!
    
    Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be climbing into my fallout shelter.
    
    Chip

    	Before I put my shorts on I apply Desitin Ointment to
    sensitive areas.  I have found that applying the ointment
    before its needed usually prevents rashes from developing,
    even in the early part of the season.  My wife uses Desitin
    on the baby because of moisture which is also a problem for
    bikers that tend to sweat a lot in that area.  Another 
    consideration in the early season is to start out with a
    SPENCO saddle pad.  There not cheap but they work.  After
    you toughen up a bit you can dump the Spenco and rely on
    your bike shorts.  As far as saddles go, the Sella Turbo is
    not the most comfortable available.  Try one of the new
    flowlite or spenco gel models, but again, you'll probably
    only need the extra padding in the early season.
    	
    						Jerry

    Howdy Rod,
    
    I assume this is the London-Oxford Solidarity ride you're doing
    this sunday, right?  Nothing like riding the good ride!
    
    If you're concerned about chafing, I would suggest that you dab
    some Pond's cold cream on the crotch area and maybe some on the
    chamois.  And, as the others said, 'tis better to have ridden indecent
    than to arrive with your butt on fire, so skip the undies.
    
    Alfonso

        I just use gobbs of Vasaline.  My problem is not usually me
       rubbing on the chamois or the seat, but me rubbing on me.  So
       just reach down there, pick yourself up and spread a whole bunch
       of the stuff on.

       And of course, no underwear.

The "dress code" for what goes under your biking shorts is the same as 
for what a Scotsman wears under his kilt. Go find a Scotsman and ask 
'em, as I don't offhand recall the details :-). If you wish to appear stylish, 
however, also be sure to properly starch the collars of your riding 
jerseys and get some of the new Campag Aero cuff-links... :-)

re: back a few; move over in yer fallout shelter, I'm not fond of 
chamois either. My Avocet polypro-lined shorts are much nicer than the 
half dozen chamois shorts I've had. Wear forever, better padding, no goo 
needed....
                                            ken

    If you REALLY MUST wear something under your biking shorts.....let me
    suggest that Andiamo makes a seamless biking underwear called "SKINS"
    and cost about $20.00---expensive but your parts are worth it!  Also,
    I'm wondering if a leather covered saddle might not work better for you
    by absorbing excess moisture <--- just a thought.
    
    By the way, the SKINS look just like riding shorts except in white;
    they also come padded and unpadded.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Bob
    

    I think the synthetic chamois are great.  the real stuff had to
    be treated or else it would be like those scratchy paper towels
    the schools used to use.  Descente has a good artificial pad but
    at a very real price.  I like Vigorelli's.  Cannondale has little
    more than a good cannon towel cut to fit an average bum.
    
    ed

I have used the good Nashbar shorts with the synthetic chamois AND 
padding. They also have a V section made of a towel like cotton which
is good for absorbing sweat. They also never get hard and wash in the
washer with no problems. I believe their about 26.00 which isn't bad
either. I don't know if you get Nashbar stuff on your side of the 
pond though.


Good luck
Mano

    I only have experience with synthetic chamois, and I agree with the
    position of "Nothing comes between me and my chomois."
    
    Rich

Rod (.0), you say:

      "What I usually wear round the nether regions are wool or lycra
       shorts, with a pair of underpants beneath that for decency..." 
    
I'm not sure what you mean by decency, but it sounds like some sort
of moral judgement that you place on your dress.

My advice would be to dress for comfort, whatever that is for you.
(leave your religion out of your biking, or make biking your 
religion).

Being decent should have nothing to do with it (it sure doesn't for 
me).

	~Mike

P.S.	My experience is that the less there is between a personally
well fitting saddle and my back side, the better.  

Many women also seem to agree that this is the most comfortable
dress for a man. 

     
    My vote is another for "less is better". I used Protog wool shorts
    (they didn't use chamois but something closer to cow hide!) for a 
    number of years before I bought a pair of the lycra blend and I've 
    had very few problems with chaffing. It's worth a try even if you
    have to ride discreetly some night (so no one will spot you riding
    almost naked!:^}). Besides, if decency were a factor none of us
    would be riding in funny looking helmets, tight glossy shorts, gloves
    and cleated shoes, would we?
    
    Of course you could always ride out of the saddle!
    
    Jonathan

    For my money, leather left best on the feet. As far as accoutraments
    under the cover, hmmm, I've been wearing shorts but will definitely
    give the "non-gratis" a try.
    
    

    Thanks for the many replies! It's given me some good pointers,
    particularly the recommendation for artificial rather than chamois
    padding. The point about leather saddles soaking up sweat is
    interesting too. 
    
    My Sunday cycle passed without too much complaint from the rear end: I
    opted for the minimalist approach plus vaseline.
    
    As to decency, it's nothing to do with morals. I'm as immoral as the
    next guy, it's just that I'm not exceptionally exhibitionist and have
    these strait-laced hangups about shorts that don't hide very much (not
    that I've anything to worry about, he said quickly).
    
    As to asking a Scotsman... I am one - but I've never worn a kilt.
    
    
    MacRod

    Oh, so ye go riding around wi'out yer kilt, do ye?
    
    Sorry, Rod, couldn't resist.  :-)
    
    After a while I think most of us give up on caring what the
    rest of the public thinks about our attire.  We don't make
    fun of their potbellies and cigars so why don't they just
    leave us alone and stop running us off the road.
    
    ed

>    rest of the public thinks about our attire.  We don't make
>    fun of their potbellies and cigars so why don't they just
    
    	As a potbellied, non-cigar-smoking bikie I demand a
    retraction !  Well maybe not demand...how about...would like
    a retraction?
    						Jerry

    There I go offending the world again.  Sorry, Jerry,
    I hate to inform you but you're not potbellied.
    
    ed

    Somewhat along the lines of this note I have a seat/shorts problem.
    Occasionally, my crotch area will get numb when riding. This can
    happen after as short a period as 10 or 15 minutes. If there's any
    area of me I DON'T want numb it's this particular area!  :^)
    Anyway, I've tried a couple of different seats (for several years
    now I've had a Selle Royal Superleggero) but it doesn't seem to
    make any difference. If I get off the seat for a minute the numbness
    goes away but will return after a short period. Obviously, I'm hitting
    a nerve down there and I'm a somehwat nervous about the possiblity
    of permanent damage. Make that VERY nervous! 
    I seem to remember seeing articles here and there where this problem
    has occured but can't remember specifics. Anyone else experience
    this and are there any suggestions? I wear lycra biking shorts with
    BVD's underneath and have a Fuji Royale 12 speed.  I've never tried
    any of the fancy "gel" seats such as the Spenco pad or the Avocet
    Gelflex I saw mentioned in this notesfile. The seat itself doesn't
    bother me, no aches or chafing. Just the numbness. Thanks in advance.
    
    						Regards,
    
    						Thom...

Regarding -.1

I used to experience the same kind of numbness you described. I thought 
it had more to do with circulation in my case rather than nerve 
compression. I have experienced the nerve problems in my hands and the 
symptoms were different.

I got the numbness when riding on my rollers last winter. I attributed 
this to an old seat and the fact that you almost never get up out of the 
seat while riding on the rollers. Well, I don't anyway; I would surely 
fall if I did. I subsequently bought a new Fuji Saratoga that came with 
an avocet M20 seat (GEL filled). The seat made a big difference. Another 
thing that helped is making sure the forward/backward tilt is correct. 
This seemed to help some on my old seat. 


Your best bet would be to try a gel seat. Nashbar sells the Avocet M20 
for about 25 bucks. Your comment about the seriousness of this is true. 
I have read articles that support your comments about it potentially 
becoming permanent. Numbness there is not something to "fool around" 
with. (I couldn't resist :-)   sorry....)


JC

Its officially called numb penis and is not uncommon (among men!).

I saw a medical presentation at GEAR a few years ago which covered the 
subject and others.  It is caused by either an interruption of the 
blood supply or a nerve.  Your saddle may be the problem; but often 
(and for me) it is caused by clothing.  Try wearing a different 
size, cut, or style of shorts, it may help.

	~Mike

    	I'd try altering the saddle position first.  I had a similar
    problem when I went to Scott bars.  By altering the seat position
    I was able to overcome the numbness and as someone already indicated,
    get out of the saddle every 15 minutes or so just to stretch your
    loins and open up your circulation.  This is similar to the advice 
    given to people having hand numbness from not changing positions
    frequently enough.  I have seen some extreme saddle angles from
    those pointing toward 7 O'Clock to those pointing toward 10 O'clock
    to relieve the pressure.....guess it has a lot to do with your
    individual architecture, but I have read that a slightly elevated
    tip is preferable to a slightly lowered one since it will encourage
    you to sit back on your buns rather than rest forward on your
    pubis (Guess thats a good name for it :-) ) .  Whatever you do,
    don't let this serious problem get you down....there's always the
    recumbent solution as an alternative and I'll bet it's better for
    your back also.
    
    					Jerry

    Jerry's right, Tom. Don't go investing in a gel saddle. It's
    definitely adjusment. If your butt was falling asleep theeeennnn
    the appropriate recommendation might be gel. You are supposed to
    be support by the bottom of the p-bone, not your crotch.
    
    Getting out of the saddle does a lot, as suggested, as well as
    help get the lactic acid out of those stumps and stretch your
    back, arms, etc... (sorry for the atrocious spelling/I just don't
    care at this time of the morning)
    
    Chip

I had this problem last year and solved it by doing two things. First
as mentioned previously, I adjusted the tilt on my saddle. This seamed to
help some but not enough. I then bought some new riding shorts and the
problem went away completely. It seems that my old shorts had a lot of
padding in the crotch and were a little too tight for me. This combined
to cut the blood supply down there. I would also experiment by riding 
wihtout your BVD's and see it there is an improvement. This will also
tell you if your underwear is a causing the problem or whether you
need a little more room there.


Good Luck
Mano

    Thanks very much for the replies. I adjusted the saddle last night
    and did about 25 minutes on the windtrainer and there was no problem.
    I adjusted the tip down toward the cross bar. This made me sit back
    more on my pubic bones rather than having the tip of the saddle
    driving up into my genital area. It seems to work but it puts more
    strain on my arms as I'm fighting the tendency to slip forward off
    the seat (although that's offset somewhat by the fact that I'm pushing
    on the pedals).  In the previous replies several of you said you adjusted
    your seat. Which way? Tip down or tip up? I seem to be hearing both.
    I've been wearing Vigorelli Second Skins with the chamois insert
    and my BVD's. I'm going to try a pair of synthetics without anything
    underneath. Thanks again and I welcome any other suggestions/info.
    Either as a reply or to my vaxmail (THOM::LANGLOIS).
    
    					Thom...

    Tom, you'll probably find the same thing I've found. It's totally
    different on the road vs. the trainer. I fight the same thing on
    my trainer, but absolutely no force necessary (arms) staying where
    I want on the road. It's resistence difference. I wouldn't fool
    with it too much until you experience the road. I'm a bit un-
    comfortable on the trainer, but really comfortable on the road.
    
    Sounds like you're there to me.
    
    Chip

    I have had similar pain/numbness problems.  I found the cure *was*
    saddle angle.  All the theory that I have read and the advice I
    have been given suggests that the tip and back of the saddle should
    either be dead level or slightly nose down.  I'm now riding slightly
    (1/8") nose down and no problems on the road.
    
    However, I have had the same problems as .-2 on the trainer.  Mine's
    a Minoura MagTurbo.  It has the effect of raising the back of the
    bike relative to the front, which compounds the problem.  That was
    easily fixed by raising the front of the trainer so that the bike
    has a slight nose up attitude.  This seems to fix the sliding forward
    problem.

    Richard

    
    Having read this note, I think I'll give up cycling.  If not for me,
    then in the interest of my potential descendants.
    
    Kepp using the ointment,
    
    Richard.